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The centre spread of todays 'Daily Mail' in the U.K. (July 3rd) has more Anti-Kennedy Nonsense claiming:- A Los Angeles policeman (Mike Rothmiller) says an ultra-secret Police Department file names JFK's brother Bobby Kennedy as the killer of Marilyn Monroe-and actor Peter Lawford confessed to the cop that he watched the murder unfold.

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2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

The centre spread of todays 'Daily Mail' in the U.K. (July 3rd) has more Anti-Kennedy Nonsense claiming:- A Los Angeles policeman (Mike Rothmiller) says an ultra-secret Police Department file names JFK's brother Bobby Kennedy as the killer of Marilyn Monroe-and actor Peter Lawford confessed to the cop that he watched the murder unfold.

What a coincidence...   It's the same LAPD that bugliosied the investigations of RFK's assassination and the Tate/LaBianca murders.  🤥

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LBJ obviously screwed up Vietnam, but he committed to getting Kennedy's agenda done with regard to civil rights, NASA, etc. within days of his funeral. Hopefully without opening up a can of worms, I'm going to say it's my opinion that JFK and his wife got along rather well with LBJ; JFK showed him respect and had him active in the administration. I'm aware of what LBJ's girlfriend claims was said before the assassination, but that sounds like Texas tall tales in the face of the contrary evidence, that of a friendship between JFK and LBJ.

The problem, IMO, was between LBJ and RFK. That was nasty. Possibly real hatred.

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18 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

LBJ obviously screwed up Vietnam, but he committed to getting Kennedy's agenda done with regard to civil rights, NASA, etc. within days of his funeral. Hopefully without opening up a can of worms, I'm going to say it's my opinion that JFK and his wife got along rather well with LBJ; JFK showed him respect and had him active in the administration. I'm aware of what LBJ's girlfriend claims was said before the assassination, but that sounds like Texas tall tales in the face of the contrary evidence, that of a friendship between JFK and LBJ.

The problem, IMO, was between LBJ and RFK. That was nasty. Possibly real hatred.

I'd say that RFK sized up LBJ pretty accurately. I've always found RFK's reference to planning and plotting a coup and overthrowing the government using violence very interesting. 

 

 

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I'm not suggesting they were tight buddies, but Arthur Schlesinger wrote that Kennedy ‘liked Johnson personally, valued his counsel on questions of legislation and public opinion and was determined that, as Vice President, Johnson should experience the full respect and dignity of the office.” 

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7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

What a coincidence...   It's the same LAPD that bugliosied the investigations of RFK's assassination and the Tate/LaBianca murders.  🤥

It's old news too.  Maybe the Mail 'journalist' has been surfing through Jim's webpages:-

Bombshell: The Night Robert Kennedy Killed Marilyn Monroe

Michael Rothmiller

 
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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2021 at 8:04 PM, Matt Allison said:

 I'm aware of what LBJ's girlfriend claims was said before the assassination, but that sounds like Texas tall tales in the face of the contrary evidence, that of a friendship between JFK and LBJ.

 

Madeline Duncan Brown was quite a bit more to LBJ than simply his "girlfriend."

She was his long time kept Dallas side lover who gave birth to LBJ's son Steven.

LBJ, through front men, provided her with better than cheap apartment, junky car and K-Mart living expenses for decades. A simple girlfriend should be so lucky.

Brown has been heavily reputation attacked by media connected LBJ defenders ever since she first came forward with her claim of being LBJ's long time kept lover and his presence at one of the Murchison Dallas homes the evening of 11,21,1963 and his growling comment to her regarding JFK "after tomorrow those GD ... will never embarrass me again."

This campaign of reputation ruining tells us Madeline Brown was a desperate for money xxxx who made up her story not just to make a quick buck, but also to get back at LBJ and his people and family for cutting off her comfortable expense account and perhaps having her son Steven kidnapped and in some way even killed.

In the documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" is a brief segment of an interview of long time employed ( 35 years!) Virginia Murchison housekeeper May Newman. In this interview, Newman relates this same evening get together that Madeline Brown claimed at one of the Murchison Dallas homes the evening of 11,21,1963, where many big shots had been gathered for some important reason, including "Bulldog" J. Edgar Hoover himself.

I am not sure who's "Murchison big shot gathering" story was related first, Madeline Brown or May Newman, but the two accounts back each other's up in many details.

If this secret gathering actually took place and on the evening before 11,22,1963 and with Hoover himself flying in to attend, the implications are incredibly important in so many ominous ways.

And a secret off the books late night drive over to it by LBJ would be very plausible, especially since LBJ and Hoover were so personally close ("like brothers"-LBJ.)

Sorry, my take on Brown and her LBJ comments account is much more believing than not.

And 35 year employed Virginia Murchison housekeeper May Newman struck me as one of the most totally honest, sincere and morally grounded person's interviewed in the entire TMWKK documentary series. And her tale of the ominous Murchison get together with J. Edgar Hoover ( Bulldog) secretly flying in to attend rings totally true imo. She even mentions by name others employed by the Murchisons who were direct witnesses to this gathering. Jules Fifer-driver and Beula May ( last name escapes me ) the main Murchison family cook.

Newman was willing to give first and last names of these other witnesses to this gathering which if she was lying was incredibly stupid and risky on her part. She seemed very sharp and clear headed and not stupid in that interview.

Brown's and Newman's accounts bolster each others regarding this same secret big shot Murchison gathering on 11,21,1963 with Hoover in attendance. And it's logical LBJ would pop in to say hi to his brother Hoover when he was just 20 minutes away and visiting one of LBJ's most powerful and wealthy backers, Clint Murchison.

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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Madeline Brown's suite was next to our room at NID one year. Donner and I heard her presentation and had an opportunity to get to know her a bit in passing. We found her to be a delightful person and felt she was speaking honestly and made sense to us...

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Posted (edited)

Well Joe, I know you like that Madeleine Brown, May Newman and the Murchison meeting, but of course Madeleine Brown also said Jack Ruby was there!

There is quite a disagreement about LBJ. Some think he was in on the plot to kill JFK, some think he was the mastermind. But there's no doubt, he was part of a massive government  coverup and by some private accounts was personally  a despicable human being. My outlook is certainly not going to win praise from the LBJ was "in it up to his neck crowd". But I tend to agree with Matt. I think JFK was completely different than RFK in his ideas about arousing enmity with his ideological foes that he had to have a working relationship with.

When LBJ became President , he saw a unique opportunity as the previous head of the Senate and as a southerner to carry through JFK's civil rights legislation, and was probably more successful than JFK could have been because JFK really wasn't much of a politician , though he was getting better. LBJ was envious of the JFK Ivy leaguers that he kept in his cabinet after the assassination, and despite his corruption had sort of a teachers idealization of social progress, and a socialite wife to match. When he first met MLK after the assassination he told  him that "You and I are going to do great things together." He was an opportunist and he saw his unique historic opportunity, and realized he was going to make his party give up the South for a long while. .

I think a very sober, but accurate evaluation of JFK was made by Oliver Stone in the "Untold History of the United States"  that JFK had "potential". It may have been "good potential". And I'd accept that too. He didn't say that JFK was "great" or going to knock the cover off the ball. Anyway, I liked his depiction. We can talk about his aspirations in foreign policy. He definitely was in a place to be able to get out of Vietnam, and we know in hindsight, that would have been his crown achievement, but of course nobody knew that at the time because the disastrous Vietnam War hadn't  played out. So he wouldn't have had any political capital because of that.

As far as aspirations being taken to fruition. Hell, Bill Clinton had great aspirations to give our nation health care at a time when it would have been a lot cheaper, but he couldn't accomplish that. I tend to think JFK's second term wouldn't have been as successful as I don't think any president could have successfully weathered the 60's. There was just too much change. JFK would have had no more control over the race riots of the 60's  than LBJ did. That was a train that was going to happen and no amount of "JFK charisma" was going to stop it IMO.

Still I think JFK could have been remembered for hastening the end of the  Cold War, which was no small achievement!. So we would have started the post cold war era sooner and we'd be further along  on this economic cycle.  I'm not sure how good that would be for us now, I guess that depends on how bright you think the future is, but it was the right thing to do -damn it!

 

heh heh

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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Posted (edited)

Kirk, Madeline Brown may have embellished certain aspects of her story. I believe she did a few times in her public appearances. But, to what degree? 

She seemed to mis-remember some things and was willing to fill in those blanks with contradicting recollections rather than simply admitting she couldn't remember or didn't know certain specific points of her story.

Maybe too she got a little star struck by the media attention she was given once her story broke nationally?

But, as with all personal accounts relating to the big event and the main characters involved that reveal shocking claims (like Brown's) one has to decide how much, if any, part of their tales they want to believe.

Brown's account of LBJ's growling "after tomorrow..." words to her regarding a pre-event knowledge of something ominous happening to the Kennedys to effect his personal animosity relief seemed just too LBJ specific true to me.

Too specific and LBJ tone, content and speaking manner appropriate to be dismissed as totally made up.

I think one of the reason's Brown's LBJ comment tale acquired so much traction was a wide spread feeling ( like mine) of believability regards this particular part of her story. If Madeline created this LBJ comment tale out of her head, she sure won the Irvin Thalberg award for creative dramatic license skill and achievement that convinced millions to believe her LBJ growling comment story more than not. And to this day.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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Posted (edited)
On 7/4/2021 at 11:37 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

Well Joe, I know you like that Madeleine Brown, May Newman and the Murchison meeting, but of course Madeleine Brown also said Jack Ruby was there!

There is quite a disagreement about LBJ. Some think he was in on the plot to kill JFK, some think he was the mastermind. But there's no doubt, he was part of a massive government  coverup and by some private accounts was personally  a despicable human being. My outlook is certainly not going to win praise from the LBJ was "in it up to his neck crowd". But I tend to agree with Matt. I think JFK was completely different than RFK in his ideas about arousing enmity with his ideological foes that he had to have a working relationship with.

When LBJ became President , he saw a unique opportunity as the previous head of the Senate and as a southerner to carry through JFK's civil rights legislation, and was probably more successful than JFK could have been because JFK really wasn't much of a politician , though he was getting better. LBJ was envious of the JFK Ivy leaguers that he kept in his cabinet after the assassination, and despite his corruption had sort of a teachers idealization of social progress, and a socialite wife to match. When he first met MLK after the assassination he told  him that "You and I are going to do great things together." He was an opportunist and he saw his unique historic opportunity, and realized he was going to make his party give up the South for a long while. .

Kirk,

     To what extent was LBJ an idealist?   It's an interesting question.

     My take is heavily influenced by studying Phillip Nelson's two books* on the subject, which paint a very dismal portrait of LBJ as a deeply disturbed narcissist and sociopath-- a man who would do, literally, anything to acquire power and public acclaim.

     Apparently, LBJ never shrank from blatant sycophancy, stuffing ballet boxes, accepting kickbacks, manipulating agencies, bribery, threats, and even murdering people to ascend to the highest public office in the land.   Mr. Caddy and others are far more familiar with the sordid details of LBJ's history than I am, including the allegations of Billy Sol Estes, et.al.

      If LBJ was, in fact, a narcissist and a sociopath, his promotion of JFK's domestic political agenda-- including the Civil Rights Act-- after 11/22/63 was most likely based not on idealism, but on his assessment of his own political self-interest.  My hunch is that he was willing to antagonize Richard Russell and his old Dixiecrat Congressional colleagues in 1964 because he knew that he needed to woo the liberal majority of the Democratic Party to get re-elected.  Perhaps he was also anxious to minimize any suspicion of his involvement in JFK's assassination-- in the same way that he carefully insisted that he had not altered JFK's Vietnam policy.

     Of course, the end result of his machinations was the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Great Society legislation.  He did good.

     As I said above, I would file this one under, "God works in strange ways."

     As for JFK's relationship with the VP Bobby called, "Colonel Cornpone," Nelson depicts JFK as being cordial but wary of Lyndon.  I recall an anecdote from Nelson's books in which LBJ is hanging around the White House, and JFK worriedly asks Bobby, "What is Lyndon doing here?"

* https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-JFK-Assassination/dp/B00BAFOTXI/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Phillip+Nelson&qid=1625617396&s=books&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Colossus-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1628736925/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=Phillip+Nelson&qid=1625617435&s=books&sr=1-10

Edited by W. Niederhut
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Kirk,

     To what extent was LBJ an idealist?   It's an interesting question.

     My take is heavily influenced by studying Phillip Nelson's two books* on the subject, which paint a very dismal portrait of LBJ as a deeply disturbed narcissist and sociopath-- a man who would do, literally, anything to acquire power and public acclaim.

     Apparently, LBJ never shrank from blatant sycophancy, stuffing ballet boxes, accepting kickbacks, manipulating agencies, bribery, threats, and even murdering people to ascend to the highest public office in the land.   Mr. Caddy and others are far more familiar with the sordid details of LBJ's history than I am, including the allegations of Billy Sol Estes, et.al.

      If LBJ was, in fact, a narcissist and a sociopath, his promotion of JFK's domestic political agenda-- including the Civil Rights Act-- after 11/22/63 was most likely based not on idealism, but on his assessment of his own political self-interest.  My hunch is that he was willing to antagonize Richard Russell and his old Dixiecrat Congressional colleagues in 1964 because he knew that he needed to woo the liberal majority of the Democratic Party to get re-elected.  Perhaps he was also anxious to minimize any suspicion of his involvement in JFK's assassination-- in the same way that he carefully insisted that he had not altered JFK's Vietnam policy.

     Of course, the end result of his machinations was the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Great Society legislation.  He did good.

     As I said above, I would file this one under, "God works in strange ways."

     As for JFK's relationship with the VP Bobby called, "Colonel Cornpone," Nelson depicts JFK as being cordial but wary of Lyndon.  I recall an anecdote from Nelson's books in which LBJ is hanging around the White House, and JFK worriedly asks Bobby, "What is Lyndon doing here?"

* https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-JFK-Assassination/dp/B00BAFOTXI/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Phillip+Nelson&qid=1625617396&s=books&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Colossus-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1628736925/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=Phillip+Nelson&qid=1625617435&s=books&sr=1-10

Good assessment of LBJ in my opinion.

He would do "anything" to gain, keep and increase his political and even personal interests.

I could easily believe he ordered murders. Henry Marshall for one.

His aggressive promotion and implementation of his "Great Society" programs was to try to establish another legacy of himself besides a totally corrupt sociopathic crook from the well known ( Ed Clark run ) corrupt state of Texas one.

Like Al Capone giving more to charity than our government wants people to know.

And El Chapo giving billions back to the poor. He was likened to Robin Hood in this way.

Countless ruthless big money criminals have done the same thing. Hoping to establish a better legacy than just ruthless killer.

Remember, if JFK hadn't been murdered, those investigations into LBJ's corrupt business dealings would have gone on. 

No matter the outcome, JFK could never have kept the tainted LBJ on the 1964 presidential election ticket. LBJ knew this.

His "only" chance for political survival and a term as president was with JFK's total removal.

Bobby Kennedy knew how corrupt and dangerous LBJ truly was. He once described LBJ as "an animal."

Both LBJ and Hoover needed RFK gone. If RFK was ever president...both those guys ( "we're like brothers" LBJ to Hoover)

would be ruined and maybe even indicted. 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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W: Of course, the end result of his machinations was the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Great Society legislation.  He did good.

Yep, all the above! Who can figure out why?, but a confident opportunist with a  sense of history that he knew from the very beginning what he and MLK would be remembered for.

W: As I said above, I would file this one under, "God works in strange ways."

Amen!

Some people talk, and some people do. Sometimes I shudder to think what LBJ may have done!

Complex times require complex people. Today everybody is so f--k--- binary!

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