Oswald said someone took his picture and superimposed his face on the backyard photos

[Steve Thomas]

10 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Interesting.  My hypothesis puts the moon race at the heart of what happened to JFK...

Pamela,

I think, but cannot prove, that Marina's whirlwind romance and marriage to Lee Harvey Oswald, and the rapid approval for her to leave Russia were designed to get her to America in general, and Fort Worth, specifically as quickly as possible.. The year's long delay was not the Russians' fault, It was the American State Department's. I don't know if she was designed to get information from someone, or to give it.

Steve Thomas

Edited July 21, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[Pamela Brown]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

I think, but cannot prove, that Marina's whirlwind romance and marriage to Lee Harvey Oswald, and the rapid approval for her to leave Russia were designed to get her to America in general, and Fort Worth, specifically as quickly as possible.. The year's long delay was not the Russians' fault, It was the American State Department's. I don't know if she was designed to get information from someone, or to give it.

Steve Thomas

I think you're right. A honey trap...so many red flags...

The timetable was already set. The plan was in place. I don't know when I've seen so many doors open so quickly. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Pamela Brown

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

I think you're right. A honey trap...so many red flags...

The timetable was already set. The plan was in place. I don't know when I've seen so many doors open so quickly. 

Pamela,

From the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, to the Walker Note, to the note on the back of the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo, I think Marina set up Oswald beautifully.

Steve Thomas

[Pete Mellor]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

From the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, to the Walker Note, to the note on the back of the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo, I think Marina set up Oswald beautifully.

Steve Thomas

For me, Marina's links with Robert E Webster as reported by Gary Hill in 'The Other Oswald' is a slam dunk!

[Pamela Brown]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:58 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

From the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, to the Walker Note, to the note on the back of the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo, I think Marina set up Oswald beautifully.

Steve Thomas

You may be right.

 

[Pamela Brown]

On a side note, (please don't cringe) the entrance of Judyth Baker into the CT community by way of inserting herself into the lives and reputations of our most respected researchers with the sole intent being to turn everything upside down and turn everyone against each other -- for which she did a pretty good job for quite a while -- can be viewed in a somewhat different light.

Here's my hypothesis:

When Marina recanted some time ago she, in effect, destroyed any possible credibility of the Warren Commission Report.  Those overseeing the Ongoing Coverup realized this.  This may have been done as a sort of limited hang-out, to get Marina involved as one of the 'good guys' with the CT community.  That happened. She appeared on Oprah with the LaFontaines who wrote Oswald Talked, and a biopic was done about her, ending with her newfound belief in Lee's innocence.

But that may have backfired.  Too much actual information could have been coming forth as a result about her actual involvement in tracking and possibly informing others of Lee's behavior and possible complicity in the cover-up after the assassination.  After all, the WC didn't fully believe her and Jim Garrison wanted to treat her as a hostile witness. 

So, in that light, Judyth was trotted out -- after Ed Haslam had made a path for her, of course, with MF+TMV and his claim of meeting a 'false' Judyth (he didn't, he was in cahoots with the real one, in my book) -- plus, they are both from Bradenton, FL...They immediately went to CBS and 60 Minutes, home of Dan Rather and his skewed and inaccurate version of the Zapruder film, etc etc...

The objective would have been to remove any focus from Marina and get everyone running around in Judyth -- and Fetzers'-- rabbit trails...and, of course, finally destroying the CT research community from within.  

And if you think I'm off my rocker, I sincerely apologize. I did spend seven years keeping an open mind to her, after all.  So maybe I am entitled...

What do you think?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Pamela Brown

[John Butler]

It's obvious that Marina was an agent of some government body in the Soviet Union.  KGB, or military intelligence, the GRU, are the most likely candidates.  There are stories of Marina with a Bulgarian ambassador, a Moroccan individual, and with Robert Webster prior to her meeting Oswald.  Her people were in intelligence work at a high level.  I don't know much about her parents and her early years.  

Supposedly, she ended up in Minsk due to an Uncle.  And, then she meets Oswald.  Since I am a Harvey and Lee fan I have to ask which one?  Did she have a relationship with both in the SU and the US.  Jealousy may be the reason for her occasional beating.  That's just my pet theory lacking evidence to say confidently.  But, several of the stories have her with an Oswald while another Oswald is elsewhere.  She said she was married to two men.  Many take that metaphorically.  I don't.

Yep.  Marina is very suspicious.  Particularly, her behavior after the assassination and her help in framing Oswald.

 

 

 

[Pamela Brown]

12 hours ago, John Butler said:

It's obvious that Marina was an agent of some government body in the Soviet Union.  KGB, or military intelligence, the GRU, are the most likely candidates.  There are stories of Marina with a Bulgarian ambassador, a Moroccan individual, and with Robert Webster prior to her meeting Oswald.  Her people were in intelligence work at a high level.  I don't know much about her parents and her early years.  

Supposedly, she ended up in Minsk due to an Uncle.  And, then she meets Oswald.  Since I am a Harvey and Lee fan I have to ask which one?  Did she have a relationship with both in the SU and the US.  Jealousy may be the reason for her occasional beating.  That's just my pet theory lacking evidence to say confidently.  But, several of the stories have her with an Oswald while another Oswald is elsewhere.  She said she was married to two men.  Many take that metaphorically.  I don't.

Yep.  Marina is very suspicious.  Particularly, her behavior after the assassination and her help in framing Oswald.

 

 

 

Interesting.  I agree that Marina had connections of some sort that were being used to track Lee's whereabouts and activities, and that her uncle in GRU was a likely connection for that in USSR, and then George de Mohrenschildt and later Ruth Paine in the US...

But to what end would the intelligence connections be of value? If they are Soviet, then don't we have possible Soviet involvement in creating the patsy for the assassination of JFK? Why would they want to do that?  

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

But to what end would the intelligence connections be of value?

None in the grand scheme of things.  The grand scheme of things being the JFKA.   Oswald's defection pre-dates any notion of the JFKA.  So, there are other grands schemes at work then.  Marina and Oswald meet before anything is actually thought of or put into works for the JFKA.

I see the relationship between Marina and Oswald as spy vs. spy.  IMO, Oswald was sent to the Soviet Union as a triple spy.  Stage 1 spying would be his defection to the SU.  Stage 2 would be his actual defection to the SU by giving them US military secrets involving radar.  This doubling would have to be very convincing to KGB authorities so that they would accept him as a genuine defector. 

This acceptance of Oswald as a worthy defector was real.  He was sent to Minsk which was not a faraway place of no importance.  Minsk was a top industrial and military center.  It had the Soviets best and biggest factory for electrical products.  Oswald was sent to the radio and tv factory as a regulator.  Most people wonder what that was and simply take the simple answer that he was a lathe operator.  That was not so.  A regulator was a supervisor.

Oswald was a supervisor in the experimental shop of the factory.  This was where new products were made.  He was paid more or the same as the factory manager.  Why?  Because what he was doing in the experimental shop was of top priority to the KGB and Soviet authorities. I, like others, believe Oswald was instrumental in providing info that eventually caused the downing of a U2.  This was why he was sent into the Soviet Union.  His mission was to sabotage the upcoming summit meeting and continue the Cold War.

Still, he was not trusted.  It was said that 30 KGB operatives were assigned to watch him.  And, then comes Marina to fulfill Oswald's lonesome desires.  It's Spy vs Spy.  Marina, IMO, is a KGB spy.  She attaches herself to Oswald and in the process doubles as a spy so that Oswald will find her attractive and be sympathetic to her desire to escape Russian, communism, and the hard life she has led as a spy.  When she gets to the US she triples.  Spy vs. Spy.  When the Oswald couple gets to the US, the authorities, particularly the FBI, want to keep an eye on her for that reason.

3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

f they are Soviet, then don't we have possible Soviet involvement in creating the patsy for the assassination of JFK?

It is probably the last thing they would want to do.  Can you remember hiding under your desk in school in an atomic bomb drill.  This was the atmosphere of the late 50's and early 60's.  The Hungarian revolution. The Quemoy and Matsu incident.  The Cuban missile crisis.  The U2 affair. Trouble in Southeast Asia.  And, many others.  Since the Soviets were behind us in missiles, missile technology, and nuclear bombs, they would not want to press war.  Threaten, yes.  Cause trouble on the side lines, but a direct confrontation, no.

This is the background of Marina and Oswald's spy game.  Spy vs Spy.     

 

[Pamela Brown]

John Butler said: Marina and Oswald meet before anything is actually thought of or put into works for the JFKA.

Following my hypothesis, Marina and Lee would have met when either the JFK/A or another program involving tracking US defectors was active or evolving.

I do not see Lee as a spy.  Agent Hosty told me he didn't think Lee was smart enough, and I would have to agree. But he said Marina was, and she has shown herself to have many layers of deception and mystery, and is capable of sophisticated maneuvering. 

If anything, I see Lee as a wanna-be spy, who kept dangling himself and waiting to be picked up. I think his frustration at that caused him to attempt suicide in the USSR.  His frustration made him an ideal candidate to be tracked and monitored, however, and used to ends of which he was unaware -- until it was too late.  "I'm just a patsy!" he cried.  "I have been arrested because I went to the Soviet Union".  At that point, he was beginning to get the picture.  And, unfortunately for all of us -- as who will ever forget the shock of watching him killed before our eyes and without any semblance of due process -- it was too late for his life to have been spared...

Edited July 25, 2021 by Pamela Brown

[Joe Bauer]

The Russians always knew and appreciated the value of beautiful young Russian women in the spy game.

Honey pots?

A far cry from the U.S. promoted pictures of most Russian women looking like big boned, weather beaten oxen in dust covered Babushkas behind field plows.

I do not think it was mere coincidence that Marina was placed in Oswald's social world and specifically the party dance that evening.

A truly attractive young woman can make herself be seen and available to targeted men if this is intended.

Marina was the hottest young thing in Minsk. A brilliant blue eyed beauty, even to our standards.

I'm sure Oswald couldn't believe his hot and bothered luck when this doe eyed Cinderella just appeared in front of him at the communal dance.

If Oswald had returned to the U.S. with a Russian wife who looked like one of those plow pushers in the standard U.S. photos of typical Russian women, nobody would have given them much thought or attention in regards to helping them and inviting them to parties and into their homes like they did with the pretty young thing Marina, imo.

I first saw and watched Marina in her first televised interview on national TV. The "Marina, what do you do all day?" one. The "I don't want to believe, but facts tell me Lee killed Kennedy" one.

I was achingly smitten. What a beauty! That young Lee Remick face! Those big and intelligent thought expressive yet scared eyes.

I'm sure her natural innocent looking beauty for all to see helped generate a good portion of the huge donation fund that began pouring in right after that interview.

If Marina truly was a Russian spy game honey pot, I have to give her handlers credit for finding such a beauty for this role.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

9 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The Russians always knew and appreciated the value of beautiful young Russian women in the spy game.

Honey pots?

A far cry from the U.S. promoted pictures of most Russian women looking like big boned, weather beaten oxen in dust covered Babushkas behind field plows.

I do not think it was mere coincidence that Marina was placed in Oswald's social world and specifically the party dance that evening.

A truly attractive young woman can make herself be seen and available to targeted men if this is intended.

Marina was the hottest young thing in Minsk. A brilliant blue eyed beauty, even to our standards.

I'm sure Oswald couldn't believe his hot and bothered luck when this doe eyed Cinderella just appeared in front of him at the communal dance.

If Oswald had returned to the U.S. with a Russian wife who looked like one of those plow pushers in the standard U.S. photos of typical Russian women, nobody would have given them much thought or attention in regards to helping them and inviting them to parties and into their homes like they did with the pretty young thing Marina, imo.

I first saw and watched Marina in her first televised interview on national TV. The "Marina, what do you do all day?" one. The "I don't want to believe, but facts tell me Lee killed Kennedy" one.

I was achingly smitten. What a beauty! That young Lee Remick face! Those big and intelligent thought expressive yet scared eyes.

I'm sure her natural innocent looking beauty for all to see helped generate a good portion of the huge donation fund that began pouring in right after that interview.

If Marina truly was a Russian spy game honey pot, I have to give her handlers credit for finding such a beauty for this role.

 

I couldn't agree more.  Utterly captivating.  Marina had the WC in the palm of her hand to start with because of her beauty and, of course, she played the helpless widow to a hilt -- and some of that was real.  But gradually even they came to perceive that there was a lot more to her knowledge of Lee and the assassination than what she was telling them.  I think she plays her roles well.  Very well.  Including the recanted iteration...

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

But gradually even they came to perceive that there was a lot more to her knowledge of Lee and the assassination than what she was telling them.  I think she plays her roles well.  Very well.  Including the recanted iteration...

Pamela,

I have compiled some notes for why, I believe, that a case can be made that it was Marina who bought the rifle. These run to about 22 pages, which would be too long to post here in their entirety, I think, unless I broke it up into about three or four posts.

My notes revolve around six main areas:

1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his.

2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.

3. Marina said on at least four occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).

4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

5. The times when Lee Oswald used the Americainized versions of dating as opposed to when Marina used the Cryllic version of dating.

6. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession appearing after they have been seized and searched by the Dallas Police

One of the most startling things I came across was this:

WC testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

However, on March 3, 1964 Marina told FBI Agents, Wallace Heitman and Anatoly Boguslav that not only had she seen Oswald take the rifle out of the apartment in March, 1963, but that she had gone with him!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=549&tab=page

March 3, 1964

If Marina never saw Oswald take the rifle from the apartment, how could she re-trace for the FBI the route he used?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing---it isn't
as if he said, "Well, today I am going"---it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."
But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street---that is, that it was gone?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

Kennedys and King Home Paul Bleau

Saturday, 29 July 2017 06:00

Oswald’s Intelligence Connections: How Richard Schweiker clashes with Fake History

Written by Paul Bleau

“Oswald and Intelligence: Odds and Ends

Before getting to who Oswald links up with let us look at general points where we can find fingerprints of intelligence. From Jim Marrs’ Crossfire we can read about how Oswald:

1. Possessed a Minolta spy camera.
2. Had a notebook that included microdots.
3. Loved James Bond and the spy program I Led Three Lives.
4. Worked at Atsugi air base in Japan as a radar operator with possible security clearance. This was the base where the CIA’s U2 top-secret high altitude surveillance program was housed.
5. Was discharged from the Marines, entered Russia through a favorite spy-friendly crossing point in the middle of a false defector program, threatened theatrically to give away U2 secrets to the Russians in the U.S. embassy, and returned easily to the U.S. with his Russian wife, who herself had ties to Russian intelligence. All this with financial support in ways that could have only been state-sponsored.
6. Learned Russian in a way which New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison, himself an ex-marine, concluded could only have been through special training for an intelligence assignment. He also discovered that Oswald’s base for his Fair Play for Cuba activities was right in the heart of New Orleans’ intelligence establishment, and that he was most probably playing an agent-provocateur role. He grew convinced that intelligence assets were obstructing his investigation into Oswald’s links, something that was confirmed by the HSCA and ARRB releases.
7. Applied, while in the Marines, to a very obscure Swiss college called Albert Schweitzer that appears to be CIA-linked.?”

No. 1 is a telling point.  How would a non-agent or wannabe agent have or even know about 35mm Minolta spy cameras.  There is a lot of things that Oswald knew about that wasn’t general knowledge to the public.

No. 2 is spycraft.  I guess Oswald could of made these at the photo lab of Jaggers, Chile, etc.

No. 3, I don’t see this as very relevant.  IMO, the only Bond film or book that approaches what is done in spying is From Russia With Love. 

Number 4 is something I would go farther with.  Atsugi Naval Base was the premier intelligence base in the Far East.  There were major cold war secret operations done at Atsugi.

1.     U2 flights and operation was conducted at Atsugi against the Chinese and Russians.

2.     There was a major operation with nuclear weapons at Atsugi.  The nuclear weapons were stored on Naval ships at Yokohama.  In the event of their use they would be transported to Atsugi and armed.

3.     Oswald lived in the same barracks as the U2 flight personnel and could have learned major secrets there from the mechanics and repairmen.  He was trained early on in aircraft maintenance and repair in California before being trained in radar technology.  These two trainings indicate Oswald was being prepared for something involving U2's.

4.     There were many other spying facilities there.  A Korean village to train infiltrators into North Korea is an example.

No. 5 is worth looking at closer.  Oswald’s time and job at the Minsk factory is something that needs further review.  In October of 1959 there were two Oswalds in Europe.  Perhaps around mid-October Harvey Oswald was in Finland and his double the real Lee Harvey Oswald was on a MATS flight to Germany as discussed in the Steenberger testimony before the HSCA. 

No. 6, if looked at from the Harvey and Lee perspective has Harvey Oswald as the Russian speaker has a consequence of his birth and youth.   Also, in No. 6 is further connections to intelligence.  I once listed 10 people in the military/Russia, in New Orleans, and in Dallas that had a military or intelligence background.  Other people have done a much better job of relating Oswald’s intelligence connections.

No. 7 is another case of how Oswald knew something.  Albert Schweitzer College was a little known school to the public.  How would Oswald have known about it and why did the accept him a high school dropout.  The college was associated with the CIA.  This was not known to the public.

“Researcher Mae Brussell argued that Oswald’s mission in Russia was to help the Russians bring down Gary Powers’ U2 flight over Russia and therefore sabotage Eisenhower’s attempt at rapprochement with the Russians at an upcoming summit meeting. Others have pointed to those who were convinced Oswald was a spy, including Marines Oswald served with, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Oswald’s mother and others.”

This was the reason Oswald defected into the Soviet Union.  Oswald was not a wannbe spy, but a high-level operative on a carefully defined and setup operation at the highest levels of US intelligence.  Oswald and his double had been trained by the US for some significant operation that would take place in the future..  This project, the Oswald Project, was a long term project which began in Switzerland when Allen Dulles was assigned there in the OSS and helped refugees from northern Europe, particularly Poland and Russia, escape the German invasion.  

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Oswald was not a wannbe spy, but a high-level operative on a carefully defined and setup operation at the highest levels of US intelligence.  Oswald and his double had been trained by the US for some significant operation that would take place in the future..  This project, the Oswald Project, was a long term project which began in Switzerland when Allen Dulles was assigned there in the OSS and helped refugees from northern Europe, particularly Poland and Russia, escape the German invasion.  

 

As usual, literally everything in the above paragraph written by John Butler is at best pure speculation with no direct evidence to support it, and at worst, laughably, provably wrong.