Secret Service participation in 1/6 coup attempt

[W. Niederhut]

Ben,

    We had a lengthy debate about Russia-gate here on the forum a year or two ago.  It started on a thread about Mark Zaid that got moved to one of the other boards, if I recall correctly. 

    Without belaboring the point on this thread, let me just say that my own belief is that Trump is a Russian asset who has been enmeshed with Russian oligarchs and the Russian mafia for years.  I think Putin and the FSB nailed Trump with some kind of kompromat prior to 2016, then intervened in our 2016 election to put their compromised asset in the White House.

   IMO, Trump and Manafort successfully stonewalled the Mueller investigation, then Barr halted, suppressed, and misrepresented it to the American public.  Perhaps we'll eventually get the facts.

   As for the Biden tangent, please stop the what about-ism.  This thread is about Trump and January 6th.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

    We had a lengthy debate about Russia-gate here on the forum a year or two ago.  It started on a thread about Mark Zaid that got moved to one of the other boards, if I recall correctly. 

    Without belaboring the point on this thread, let me just say that my own belief is that Trump is a Russian asset who has been enmeshed with Russian oligarchs and the Russian mafia for years.  I think Putin and the FSB nailed Trump with some kind of kompromat prior to 2016, then intervened in our 2016 election to put their compromised asset in the White House.

   IMO, Trump and Manafort successfully stonewalled the Mueller investigation, then Barr halted, suppressed, and misrepresented it to the American public.  Perhaps we'll eventually get the facts.

   As for the Biden tangent, please stop the what about-ism.  This thread is about Trump and January 6th.

W.---

OK, we have different views on Trump.  

Not sure about the "what about-ism" accusation. We are trying to get to the bottom of the 1/6 scrum. 

If what happened to Trump was a "re-installation of regime operation"---in my view, a live possibility---then Biden's neoliberal, globalist views are germane. Why was Biden installed? 

Certainly you cannot get much more globalist than the China-funded Penn Biden Center and the neo-liberal globalist views abundantly, fulsomely and exuberantly displayed there. Or on Nancy Pelosi's webpage. 

Biden-Pelosi are avid globalists, and support internationalism, alliances and the hypermobilized and worldwide US military. In effect, the global guard service for multinationals, on steroids from the Smedley Butler days. 

Trump was an oddball in such matters, perhaps corrupt on some scores as you say. The regime wanted a compliant president back in the Oval Office. Trump spoke of unilateralism, and leaving Afghanistan, Germany and S Korea. Trump lacked the intellect and discipline to accomplish much.

There is no Penn Trump Center advocating global interventionism. 

BTW, in the old days, we were told Russia was bad, bad, bad due to its being a communist nation.

Today, Russia is capitalist-kleptocrat nation---some say the same thing about the US. But we are still at odds with Russia? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

Trumps financial ties to Russia were already confirmed by his son:

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/332270-eric-trump-in-2014-we-dont-rely-on-american-banks-we-have-all-the-funding-we

It's one of the reasons he doesn't want his finances investigated.

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Trump spoke of unilateralism, and leaving Afghanistan, Germany and S Korea. Trump lacked the intellect and discipline to accomplish much.

There is no Penn Trump Center advocating global interventionism. 

 

There have been claims that Trump was not militarily aggressive or interventionist. I see no truth in that. He stated intent to take and keep Syria's oil, with military deployed in Syria to accomplish that end. He sought to invade Venezuela and take its oil, and the only reason he did not was because he was told it could not be done. There is that famous banquet of Latin American leaders in which Trump went around asking each one how they would feel about Trump taking over Venezuela--every single one, without exception, answered negatively, to his disappointment. Trump came into office threatening in the most unbelievably inflammatory language nuclear war on North Korea. He talked about relocating the entire population of Seoul, followed by giving an order to withdraw family members of US personnel from South Korea, an order which was simply not carried out even though Trump gave it, for fear on the part of generals and diplomats that it would spook North Korea into thinking an attack was imminent. Trump later did seem interested in a peace settlement with North Korea though it never happened.

Trump actually threatened a US ally, Iraq, with crippling "sanctions like they've never seen" (this to a country which has had hundreds of thousands of children's lives lost from sanctions) because the Iraqi parliament had asked the US to leave Iraq, which to Trump was a horrible affront meriting extremely severe punishment, wife-beater logic. Trump threatened millions of innocent civilians on the other side of the world with horrible suffering and consequences, collective punishment, for asking a guest to leave their space.

Trump has repeatedly, from beginning to end, criticized previous administrations for not taking and keeping Iraq's oil. 

There were fears that Trump would launch a war following the election.

But it is cited: Trump did not enter into any major wars. True, but not for not trying, in the case of Venezuela (which had done nothing against the US; zero self-defense rationale for invading Venezuela). He wanted to invade Venezuela. He did not get his wished-for invasion of Venezuela, and other military adventurisms such as forcibly taking control of other nations' oil supplies on the other side of the world, for the same reason his attempt to stay in power after losing the election did not succeed, because he was not able to do so, because he had not attained full control of the executive branch. He did not have his own generals in place who would carry out any orders he would give. That is the only reason the Trump presidency is not remembered for having gotten into wars, or staying in the presidency by force indefinitely after losing the election.

I keep thinking of one sincere young woman I remember way back in 2016 who, with utmost earnestness, said she had thought and thought about it every which way, and had come to the conclusion that Trump was simply not a good man.  

Trump's "America First" was not about being peaceful in the world, but about getting what a bully wants in the world.

There is no Penn Trump Center advocating peaceful resolution of international conflicts through the rule of law. With Trump, there are only two options I see: a fascist out of power, or a fascist in power. That's it, as far as Trump is concerned. The same dynamics that were operable with General Edwin Walker and right-wing politics in the early 1960s. 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Greg Doudna

[Benjamin Cole]

30 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

There have been claims that Trump was not militarily aggressive or interventionist. I see no truth in that. He stated intent to take and keep Syria's oil, with military deployed in Syria to accomplish that end. He sought to invade Venezuela and take its oil, and the only reason he did not was because he was told it could not be done. There is that famous banquet of Latin American leaders in which Trump went around asking each one how they would feel about Trump taking over Venezuela--every single one, without exception, answered negatively, to his disappointment. Trump came into office threatening in the most unbelievably inflammatory language nuclear war on North Korea. He talked about relocating the entire population of Seoul, followed by giving an order to withdraw family members of US personnel from South Korea, an order which was simply not carried out even though Trump gave it, for fear on the part of generals and diplomats that it would spook North Korea into thinking an attack was imminent. Trump later did seem interested in a peace settlement with North Korea though it never happened.

Trump actually threatened a US ally, Iraq, with crippling "sanctions like they've never seen" (this to a country which has had hundreds of thousands of children's lives lost from sanctions) because the Iraqi parliament had asked the US to leave Iraq, which to Trump was a horrible affront meriting extremely severe punishment, wife-beater logic. Trump threatened millions of innocent civilians on the other side of the world with horrible suffering and consequences, collective punishment, for asking a guest to leave their space.

Trump has repeatedly, from beginning to end, criticized previous administrations for not taking and keeping Iraq's oil. 

There were fears that Trump would launch a war following the election.

But it is cited: Trump did not enter into any major wars. True, but not for not trying, in the case of Venezuela (which had done nothing against the US; zero self-defense rationale for invading Venezuela). He wanted to invade Venezuela. He did not get his wished-for invasion of Venezuela, and other military adventurisms such as forcibly taking control of other nations' oil supplies on the other side of the world, for the same reason his attempt to stay in power after losing the election did not succeed, because he was not able to do so, because he had not attained full control of the executive branch. He did not have his own generals in place who would carry out any orders he would give. That is the only reason the Trump presidency is not remembered for having gotten into wars, or staying in the presidency by force indefinitely after losing the election.

I keep thinking of one sincere young woman I remember way back in 2016 who, with utmost earnestness, said she had thought and thought about it every which way, and had come to the conclusion that Trump was simply not a good man.  

Trump's "America First" was not about being peaceful in the world, but about getting what a bully wants in the world.

There is no Penn Trump Center advocating peaceful resolution of international conflicts through the rule of law. With Trump, there are only two options I see: a fascist out of power, or a fascist in power. That's it, as far as Trump is concerned. The same dynamics that were operable with General Edwin Walker and right-wing politics in the early 1960s. 

 

Greg D.

Verily, Trump was a nut, from the moon. Fascist? Maybe in the modern definition, although Trump's lionization of the military, or imperial foreign policy, seems rather muted by DC standards.

What say then of LBJ, Nixon, Bush, Bush jr? The Reagan defense build-up, Iran-Contra? If Trump is fascist, what term do you apply to the aforementioned? 

My point (perhaps belabored) is that Trump was not a member of the national security state-globalists, or any DC elite. He was an outsider, a former Reality TV show host, a carnival barker. 

You are correct, the national security state (the executive branch) did not report to Trump, and probably worked to undermine him. 

I may have a different opinion of you on the blob of globalists running US foreign policy, that I consider a paid-for front for multinationals.  

"Peaceful resolution of international conflicts through rule of law?"

Another oddity: It was Trump's Secy State Pompeo, who nearly alone on the global stage talked about Beijing and the CCP. Before the Trump Administration, all the globalist-academic-media blah-blah was on how China was "liberalizing" (this must still be the narrative at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy & Global Engagement). 

Strange how the world turns...who would have thought the half-wit Trump could change the global conversation on the CCP? 

Anyway, I am just an old man living in the mudflats of central Thailand (it is monsoon season). No worries, DC is back to being run by the people who always run DC. I have no say in the matter. 

Just my two cents. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Ben: When Biden's neoliberal, globalist views are germane. Why was Biden installed? 

Wrong!, Talk about drinking the Trump Kool aid. He wasn't installed, he was elected, by a strong margin. Yes Biden has contributors who are globalists, and Trump is a globalist. You seem to be another who got lost in a cave in Thailand. The world is globalist Ben. Whether you and i like it or not. These are facts.

In any of this anti globalist ideology you attributed to Trump, you were probably just biting the bait set up by Steve Banon. Are you really prepared to have a discussion about World globalism Ben? Maybe have the UK renounce the fruits you've in part been living off of all your life, and go off, honestly  on their own with scant resources, maybe a little fossil fuel at the worst possible time? They saw their problems centuries ago and created an empire that you've benefited from.  (Or maybe they didn't see their problem and were just naturally aspiring, greedy and warlike) heh heh

 

When I first came here. Many were still living the cold war paradigm  and there was no talk really of the corporate state. Every thing was the "government deep state" that derailed JFK 50 years ago. So as Greg as noted, What happened to the government deep state? They effectively 1)checked many of Trumps impulses toward being  a global bully, stopped several global confrontations, some that would have resulted in the loss of perhaps many lives, and 2)wouldn't play ball with his hopes for a fascist takeover of the U.S.. Oh, how could it be so!

We can call that "the reinstallation of the old regime" or a thwarting of an inept fascist coup or just a return to some normalcy. Again we could just say it's between picking the lesser of 2 evils, if you choose. But any hope of any lasting improvement hardly starts with a fascist takeover. And if you don't think a fascist takeover is worth avoiding Ben, well maybe I'm privileged, but all I can say  is, when an old duff like you tells me he has nothing to lose...I believe him!

heh heh,

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Matt Allison]

From the "Mueller, She Wrote" twitter account today:

BREAKING: EXCLUSIVE: Pence, his aides, and staff were locked out of their offices in the capitol complex during the insurrection because their access badges had been DEACTIVATED the morning of the attack, according to sources familiar with the incident.According to one source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to an ongoing investigation, Pence's team huddled in a loading dock, unable to access their offices, and started planning contingencies for a constitutional crisis and how to remove the president. The access badges worked that morning before the mob entered the capitol, but once Pence was removed from the chamber floor, their badges no longer worked. Access was restored later that night after the threat was over. Access had been shut off to the VP Office Complex and the White House as well during the same time frame. 

[Ron Bulman]

53 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

From the "Mueller, She Wrote" twitter account today:

BREAKING: EXCLUSIVE: Pence, his aides, and staff were locked out of their offices in the capitol complex during the insurrection because their access badges had been DEACTIVATED the morning of the attack, according to sources familiar with the incident.According to one source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to an ongoing investigation, Pence's team huddled in a loading dock, unable to access their offices, and started planning contingencies for a constitutional crisis and how to remove the president. The access badges worked that morning before the mob entered the capitol, but once Pence was removed from the chamber floor, their badges no longer worked. Access was restored later that night after the threat was over. Access had been shut off to the VP Office Complex and the White House as well during the same time frame. 

Sabotage.  By who?  If badge access was denied to the VP AND the WH it had to be by the NSA/MIC  (National Security Administration/Military Industrial Complex).  Thankfully.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sabotage.  By who?  If badge access was denied to the VP AND the WH it had to be by the NSA/MIC  (National Security Administration/Military Industrial Complex).  Thankfully.

Ron-

You may be correct, or the badge access story may be bogus.  Remember Brian Sicknick---false stories often gain traction. 

But I think you gave the "wrong" answer. 

The Trumpers did it, and Mr. Buffalo Horns. Aided by some racist, homophobe, misogynists. 

[Matt Allison]

31 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ron-

You may be correct, or the badge access story may be bogus.  Remember Brian Sicknick---false stories often gain traction. 

But I think you gave the "wrong" answer. 

The Trumpers did it, and Mr. Buffalo Horns. Aided by some racist, homophobe, misogynists. 

LOL

Ben, if you have any evidence that the hundreds of rioters weren't Trumpers, and that Trump wasn't trying to overthrow the US government, please share with the class.

Ron- *Pence's* badge access to the White House was cut off, not everyone's access to the WH. 

Pence playing ball was integral to the coup plot. When he refused, Plan B was to disappear him so he couldn't resume the vote count.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

LOL

Ben, if you have any evidence that the hundreds of rioters weren't Trumpers, and that Trump wasn't trying to overthrow the US government, please share with the class.

Ron- *Pence's* badge access to the White House was cut off, not everyone's access to the WH. 

Pence playing ball was integral to the coup plot. When he refused, Plan B was to disappear him so he couldn't resume the vote count.

 

As Glenn Greenwald has pointed out, not one of the 600 arrested on the Capitol grounds has been charged with conspiring with Trump officials or employees. A small number have been charged with conspiring with each other, something less than 5% of all arrestees. 

You have to have evidence to make charges.

The onus is not on me to prove the scrum was not directed by people in the Trump Administration. The onus is on the prosecution to show conspiracies. 

People are innocent until proven guilty. Conspiracies are not proven, until evidence is  submitted to court, and defense counsel is provided, and a jury rules or a confession obtained. (Think about LHO.) 

Were many people in the scrum Trump supporters? Undoubtably. Were most just lulus? I think so. 

PS. The situation regarding those arrestees who are charged with conspiring with each other is looking fishier and fishier. A guy named Ray Epps was video'ed imploring people to enter the Capitol. This is indisputable. He was charismatic, within context. He then became #16 on the FBI Capitol Violence Most Wanted List, also indisputable.

Immediately, social media people fingered him, through his Facebook and other posting. 

Now, the government is no longer looking for Ray Epps, and he has never been arrested and charged. Oathkeepers top guy Stewart Rhodes was there on Jan. 6 and also never charged, and Enrique Tarrio, top guy at Proud Boys, was in custody on Jan. 5, and let go (!), and also never charged. 

Like my late, great Uncle Jerry used to say, "This story gets fishier and fishier, and I smell a rat!" 

BTW, why does not the Ray Epps story get more ink/pixels? M$M. 

[Matt Allison]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As Glenn Greenwald has pointed out, not one of the 600 arrested on the Capitol grounds has been charged with conspiring with Trump officials or employees. A small number have been charged with conspiring with each other, something less than 5% of all arrestees. 

You have to have evidence to make charges.

The onus is not on me to prove the scrum was not directed by people in the Trump Administration. The onus is on the prosecution to show conspiracies. 

People are innocent until proven guilty. Conspiracies are not proven, until evidence is  submitted to court, and defense counsel is provided, and a jury rules or a confession obtained. (Think about LHO.) 

Were many people in the scrum Trump supporters? Undoubtably. Were most just lulus? I think so. 

PS. The situation regarding those arrestees who are charged with conspiring with each other is looking fishier and fishier. A guy named Ray Epps was video'ed imploring people to enter the Capitol. This is indisputable. He was charismatic, within context. He then became #16 on the FBI Capitol Violence Most Wanted List, also indisputable.

Immediately, social media people fingered him, through his Facebook and other posting. 

Now, the government is no longer looking for Ray Epps, and he has never been arrested and charged. Oathkeepers top guy Stewart Rhodes was there on Jan. 6 and also never charged, and Enrique Tarrio, top guy at Proud Boys, was in custody on Jan. 5, and let go (!), and also never charged. 

Like my late, great Uncle Jerry used to say, "This story gets fishier and fishier, and I smell a rat!" 

BTW, why does not the Ray Epps story get more ink/pixels? M$M. 

 

You are painfully unread on the 1/6 coup attempt.

Glenn Greenwald isn't a journalist anymore, he's a demagogue with an axe to grind; he writes for people that are out shopping for an opinion they agree with. 

[Matt Allison]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics/jan-6-committee-pence-inner-circle/index.html

 

[W. Niederhut]

57 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics/jan-6-committee-pence-inner-circle/index.html

 

 My question, Matt.  Why haven't they subpoenaed Mike Pence, himself?  And the Big Orange Kahuna?

I doubt that Pence would willingly answer any crucial questions about January 6th, but they should, at least, ask them.

America in the age of Trump is like an alcoholic family where no one dares to ask the orange paterfamilias if he got drunk last night and pissed on the Christmas tree... 🤥

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 My question, Matt.  Why haven't they subpoenaed Mike Pence, himself?  And the Big Orange Kahuna?

I doubt that Pence would willingly answer any crucial questions about January 6th, but they should, at least, ask them.

America in the age of Trump is like an alcoholic family where no one dares to ask the orange paterfamilias if he got drunk last night and pissed on the Christmas tree... 🤥

They're building from the bottom up, as is usually done in a conspiracy case; think how the Watergate burglars were busted first, and then the process worked itself up the chain of command.

But they have indeed left the option open. Obviously Trump would take the 5th if he ever was made to show up, but Pence will definitely get a subpoena at some point, and who knows, maybe he'll do the right thing. He did do the right thing on 1/6 after all, thank god.