Were Dallas Police officers involved in the murder of President Kennedy ?

[Denny Zartman]

13 hours ago, Norman T. Field said:

Both, IMHO. 

Interesting coincidence. Just yesterday I ordered three more books to investigate this.

[Pete Mellor]

9 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

 What J. D. allegedly said to his son Allan that morning cannot be verified;

Allan later denied the story.

Thanks Joseph.  Yeah, always seemed a dubious quote to me, never knew when and where it originated.  

[Steve Roe]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:26 AM, Gil Jesus said:

BLUE DEATH :
Were Dallas Police officers involved in the murder of President Kennedy ?
By Gil Jesus (2021)
(Author's Note: This is newer version of an old post of mine from 2007 )

Membership in right-wing organizations such as the John Birch Society or the Ku Klux Klan was a prerequisite for acceptance on the Dallas Police force.

Complete and utter nonsense. 

[Gil Jesus]

10 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Complete and utter nonsense. 

Who led the President into an ambush ?

Who led Oswald into an ambush two days later ?

Who refused to work security for the motorcade ?

Who denied Oswald legal counsel ?

Who kept Oswald isolated from his family ?

Who told the press not to ask Oswald questions ?

Who controlled the lineups ?

Who controlled the evidence ?

You think the cops weren't complicit in this crime ?

You think they loved Kennedy ?

You think their security of Kennedy and then Oswald was sufficient ?

Do you have any idea how justice was served in the South in the 1960s ?

This is nonsense ?

OK then, make your case. Prove me wrong. Maybe you can change my mind.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Gil Jesus

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Who refused to work security for the motorcade ?

Gil,

On January 12, 2018, I wrote a piece in the Education Forum entitled, "Where Was Bob Carroll?" that might be of interest.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24568-where-was-bob-carroll/?tab=comments#comment-367998

I talked about the members of the Special Service Bureau who were stationed along the parade route. They only had one detective per block in the downtown area.

I'd like to add this little piece:

WC testimony of Bob Carroll

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him - it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was - I think it was Hutson - we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it - where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other - I don't know exactly when it was - Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right - front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the beck seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.

Hutson was not in the car, but C.T. Walker and K.E. Lyon were.

There were 5 cops and 1 prisoner, and Carroll got 3 out of the 5 cops wrong. That's a 60% error rate.

After action report of Bob Carroll

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340230/m1/1/?q=Carroll

Carroll's WC testimony differs from his own after-action report.

M.N. McDonald did not ride in that car.

Steve Thomas

 

[Gil Jesus]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

On January 12, 2018, I wrote a piece in the Education Forum entitled, "Where Was Bob Carroll?" that might be of interest.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24568-where-was-bob-carroll/?tab=comments#comment-367998

I talked about the members of the Special Service Bureau who were stationed along the parade route. They only had one detective per block in the downtown area.

I'd like to add this little piece:

WC testimony of Bob Carroll

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him - it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was - I think it was Hutson - we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it - where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other - I don't know exactly when it was - Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right - front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the beck seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.

Hutson was not in the car, but C.T. Walker and K.E. Lyon were.

There were 5 cops and 1 prisoner, and Carroll got 3 out of the 5 cops wrong. That's a 60% error rate.

After action report of Bob Carroll

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340230/m1/1/?q=Carroll

Carroll's WC testimony differs from his own after-action report.

M.N. McDonald did not ride in that car.

Steve Thomas

 

That's real interesting, Steve. It seems that they did a lot of lying under oath and I can't for the life of me understand WHY they would do that if the case against Oswald was as solid as they said. They were going to have to go to court and prove he was guilty, or were they ? Does anyone find it strange that Oswald was killed as the Police were turning custody of him over to the Sheriff's Department ? The Chief of Police couldn't get his lips off Johnson's butt long enough to take charge and lead the search for a Presidential assassin. He could have cared less. I'm not saying they pulled the trigger, but they certainly ensured SOMETHING was going to happen with their lackluster security.

[Joseph McBride]

Detective Jim Leavelle and DA Henry Wade made it clear in

my interviews with them that they and Captain Will Fritz realized they had no real case against

Oswald for killing Kennedy, so at the direction of Fritz they went after Oswald for the Tippit killing

instead. The backward illogic (which much of the public bought, though not

the majority) was that if he shot the officer, he shot the president. It's a little-known

fact that Oswald was never arraigned for the killing of Kennedy,

only for the killing of Tippit. I asked Leavelle why they thought

they had a better case in the Tippit shooting, and he said, 
"We had witnesses." That is a tacit admission that

they discounted Brennan. And as we know, the array of "witnesses" or witnesses

in the Tippit shooting is highly problematical.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Joseph McBride

[Joe Bauer]

On 8/2/2021 at 5:26 AM, Steve Roe said:

Complete and utter nonsense. 

First the DPD ( along with the Secret Service, FBI and MI) failed in the security of JFK in the ultimate failure way.

Supposedly, one little minimum wage earning malcontent who just happened to have the perfect parade route higher up open window turkey shoot location and opportunity at the perfect time and with just about the worst, cheapest rifle one could own...defeated them all!

The rest of the nation was furious with the city of Dallas ( known as the power wealth center of the most extreme right wing, JFK hating groups ) and their police department which everyone knew were of this extreme right wing mentality and rabid segregationist sentiment as well,  in this failure.

Then, to top off their epic security failure regards JFK, they failed again just two days later in the security of the most important criminal suspect in American history - Lee Harvey Oswald!

How's THAT for a legacy of epic double whammy negligence and failure?  

Beyond incompetence. To a degree that begs rational suspicion.

So devastating was the killing of Oswald in learning the truth about Lee Harvey Oswald that to this day Americans still don't trust their government and our leaders like they did before 11,22,1963. JFK's killing along with Oswald's just two days later right inside of the DPD building with two armed escorts handcuffed to him by a sleazy strip joint owner overly chummy with way too many in the DPD truly damaged the trust factor psyche of most of our society for generations.

Like I've always said, anyone involved in planning Oswald's security resulting in his PD basement shooting should have been fired the very next day. Chief Curry number 1.

My final belief is that Jack Ruby was allowed into that basement and getting a position just feet from Oswald at the front of the press line. He was standing just inches next to one of his best police buddies just as he leaped out to hit Oswald. Big William "Blackie" Harrison. Coincidence?  Please.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

Roscoe White is an intriguing story.

It's all just coincidence that this man who confessed to being a special ops hit man of sorts overseas in his military duties, and who happened to have the same duty stations as Oswald, also just happens to decide to choose Dallas as his residence in 1963, marries a Jack Ruby employee and gets an odd trainee position with the Dallas PD just a month or two before 11,22,1963?

He quits the Dallas PD job which he seemed out of place in in the first place. He moves his family several times, comes into an unexplained monetary windfall and then is mysteriously killed in an explosion at his workplace? And his pastor claimed White confessed to him that he had killed overseas and also here at home in the states right before he died as a result of his explosion injuries?

White ranks right up there in the most suspicious character category in the big event picture imo.

[Denny Zartman]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

White ranks right up there in the most suspicious character category in the big event picture imo.

I agree. I know White is controversial topic. Let's not forget that he also had a previously unknown and unseen version of the Oswald backyard photo showing Oswald in a different pose. As far as I know, no other copies of that photo have ever been discovered, making it unlikely that the DPD evidence department was just handing copies out as souvenirs to any random cops that wanted a keepsake.

[Gil Jesus]

19 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

First they ( along with the Secret Service, FBI and MI) failed in the security of JFK in the ultimate failure way.

Supposedly, one little minimum wage earning malcontent who just happened to have the perfect parade route higher up open window turkey shoot location and opportunity at the perfect time and with just about the worst, cheapest rifle one could own...defeated them all!

The rest of the nation was furious with the city of Dallas ( known as the power wealth center of the most extreme right wing, JFK hating groups ) and their police department which everyone knew were of this extreme right wing mentality and rabid segregationist sentiment as well,  in this failure.

Then, to top off their epic security failure regards JFK, they failed again just two days later in the security of the most important criminal suspect in American history - Lee Harvey Oswald!

How's THAT for a legacy of epic double whammy negligence and failure?  

Beyond incompetence. To a degree that begs rational suspicion.

So devastating was the killing of Oswald in learning the truth about Lee Harvey Oswald that to this day Americans still don't trust their government and our leaders like they did before 11,22,1963. JFK's killing along with Oswald's just two days later right inside of the DPD building with two armed escorts handcuffed to him by a sleazy strip joint owner overly chummy with way too many in the DPD truly damaged the trust factor psyche of most of our society for generations.

Like I've always said, anyone involved in planning Oswald's security resulting in his PD basement shooting should have been fired the very next day. Chief Curry number 1.

My final belief is that Jack Ruby was allowed into that basement and getting a position just feet from Oswald at the front of the press line. He was standing just inches next to one of his best police buddies just as he leaped out to hit Oswald. Big William "Blackie" Harrison. Coincidence?  Please.

 

 

 

Joe, you hit the nail on the head so many times in this post you could have built a house. Your point about how this was the beginning of how Americans distrusted their government was spot on. America grew up that day. Racism, fake wars and all kinds of other crap opened people's eyes to the fact that they weren't being represented, they were being governed. And your point about Ruby is well taken. I've been asked," how did Ruby know when Oswald was going to be brought down" ? The point is he didn't have to. The Dallas cops stalled until they knew Ruby was in the basement and then they brought Oswald down unprotected. The "all clear" didn't mean it was all clear. The car wasn't even in position when they brought him down. The "all clear" meant Ruby was down there. Great post.

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/30/2021 at 6:17 PM, Ron Bulman said:

This is great Gill.  I don't think I've ever seen all this on the DPD put together this way in one place.  There's even more questionable information in some of their Warren Commission statements and testimony if I remember right.  It's been a while since since I've read any of them so I offer no specifics.  I do remember one officer refusing or failing  lie detector test.  Maybe a (Patrick?) Dean?  Another demanding a WC lawyer who questioned him take back a statement implying the officer lied.

That part about the Presidents alleged aversion to having them there (SSA's on the back of the car) has been pretty well destroyed by Vince Palamara.  

I've never read about the claim of Al Navis letter from Lee Bowers saying he'd seen a officer shooting behind the fence on the knoll.  Who was Navis?  A friend of Bowers?

Well maybe my memory is not quite so far gone, yet.  Sargent Patrick Dean, in charge of basement security for the Oswald transfer was told by Warren Commission lawyer Burt Griffin his statement about Ruby coming down the ramp into the basement was false.  So he requested to testify before the Commission.  Officer Roy Vaugh passed three lie detector tests about Ruby going past him down the ramp.  Dean failed his one.  Plus he said Ruby told him he thought about killing Oswald for two days before as he took him up in the elevator after he did.  Others, in close proximity did not hear this.

Item 02.pdf (hood.edu)

Testimony Of Patrick T. Dean : Vol. V, p. 254 (mu.edu)

Scroll down for this one.

Sergeant Patrick Dean | The JFK Assassination Board (freeforums.net)

Edited August 4, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Bill Simpich]

The killing of Oswald is one of the most neglected stories of the assassination weekend.

What is doubly tragic about it - it's the moment when most Americans said oh my god, this is some kind of a plot.

But the research community has failed to focus on it.   We need a new filing system to understand this evidence and keep it straight.

There are new documents that no one has looked at yet - released in 2013 by the City of Dallas - the 800 page investigation of the "operational security" of the LHO transfer.  For the first time that I know of, we have possession of the actual 100-plus exhibits and the investigative report in one place.

I call it the Warren Report of the Dallas police.

Look who signed it - instead of Allen Dulles and friends, it's Pinky Westbrook, forgery squad chief OA Jones, and the guy who failed to get the name of the witness who offered the phony LHO ID (5'10"/165) at 12:45 pm 11/22 - Herbert Sawyer.

Look at this diagram - and John Armstrong sent me a better-defined copy in color, which I will share when I figure out how to get under the 200 KB limit.  (How to compress it?)   Also take a look at the photos John sent me on the thread about Jack Ruby I posted a few days ago - it's on the first page of this site's active contents.

Look at this listing of the witnesses and their locations.

It's going to take months, maybe years, to digest all this new information.

I am going to present on this between 5:30-6 pm PDT tomorrow, August 4, on a free zoom conference at Project JFK - sign on here if you want to join us, the documents and the recording will be posted if you can't make it at that time.  (I'm doing six segments total on different issues between 4-7 pm PDT).

 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

There are new documents that no one has looked at yet - released in 2013 by the City of Dallas - the 800 page investigation of the "operational security" of the LHO transfer.  For the first time that I know of, we have possession of the actual 100-plus exhibits and the investigative report in one place.

I call it the Warren Report of the Dallas police.

 

Bill,

I looked at this many years ago, but I lost those files in a computer crash, so please forgive me, I'm just going on memory here.

Those reports can be found in CD 81.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=1

Shortly after JFK's assassination, the Dallas Police turned over all their materials to Texas State Attorney General, Waggoner Carr. H, in turn, them over to the Warren Commission in three bound volumes.  In essence, this comprises the entire Dallas Police Department's case.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=2

Volume 2 - The investigation of the Assassination of the President - is what comprises WC Document 81b

CD 81b begins on page 311 of CD 81.

The "Investigation of the Operational Security Security Involving the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald November 24, 1963" was commissioned by Chief Curry on November 29, 1963 - the dame day that President Johnson commissioned the Warren Commission. It wrapped up it's work in the second week of December.

(see page 4 of CD 81.)

As you indicated, they reached the same conclusion as the Warren Report nine months later.

The investigative team which investigated and compiled volumes 1 and 3 of the materials Carr turned over to Rankin of the WC was headed by Captain, O.A, Jones of the Forgery Bureau and was comprised of Lieutenants from various Bureaus within the Police Department: Lieutenant, Paul McCaghren, Burglary and Theft Bureau; C.C. Wallace, Juvenile Bureau; Jack Revill, Special Service Bureau; F.I. Cornwall. Special Service Bureau, and a couple of others, whose names I can't remember.

I was in email correspondance with Paul McCaghren for a while. He agreed to give me copies of the reports you see in CD 81 regarding the transfer of Oswald in exchange for a $100.00 donation to the Dallas Police Association. He was not an easy man to deal with. He told me that Curry appointed him to this special investigative team because Curry told him that he was the best investigator on the Dallas Police Force.

The investigation of Oswald's transfer soon branched out into several side areas: Witnesses who claimed Oswald and Ruby knew each other, or who claimed they saw Oswald in the Carousel or in cafes eating together and Oswald's alleged application at the Allright parking Garage, etc. (This is Volume 3 of Carr's bound volumes.)

This investigative team. and the reports they took from the officers, were to report directly to Chief Curry.

Hope this helps.

Steve Thomas

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Roe]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:21 AM, Gil Jesus said:

Who led the President into an ambush ?

The Lead car was as per Secret Service protocol. The parade route was already established. Nobody led the President into an ambush, intentionally. 

Who led Oswald into an ambush two days later ?

Nobody lead Oswald into an ambush, intentionally. The Dallas Police dropped the ball when Ruby snuck in, down the ramp. 

Who refused to work security for the motorcade ?

Not sure what your question is all about. The Dallas Police worked with the Secret Service on the motorcade detail. 

Who denied Oswald legal counsel ?

No one denied Oswald legal counsel. He was offered a court appointed lawyer upon his indictment, but he turned it down. Again Louis Nichols of the Dallas Bar Association visited him in jail on Saturday, and he wanted John Abt, but if he couldn't get him, he would choose the ACLU. 

Who kept Oswald isolated from his family ?

He was in jail, and his family did visit him and talked to him, via jailhouse telephone. 

Who told the press not to ask Oswald questions ?

The midnight conference was to show Oswald and give him a chance to speak freely. Excited reporters did ask him questions and the showing was terminated. 

Who controlled the lineups ?

DPD did of course. Don't most police departments control the lineups?

 

Who controlled the evidence ?

DPD did, until the FBI took over the investigation and a big portion of the evidence.

You think the cops weren't complicit in this crime ?

No absolutely not. Why would they want to kill the President?  

You think they loved Kennedy ?

Some did and some did not. Again, just because you don't love the President, it doesn't mean you are complicit in a crime. Millions of Americans didn't like him. Painting a broad brush like the all the DPD hated Kennedy is a childish statement. 

You think their security of Kennedy and then Oswald was sufficient ?

Obviously it wasn't. Again, it's 1963 and Kennedy rode in many motorcades wide open to the public. 

Do you have any idea how justice was served in the South in the 1960s ?

I grew up in Dallas when it happened. This is an incredibly naïve statement. Do you know how justice was served in Chicago in the 1960's?

This is nonsense ?

Yes it is complete nonsense. You are intentionally blaming the Dallas Police for a murder they never committed. Of course, Oswald gets his usual pass.

OK then, make your case. Prove me wrong. Maybe you can change my mind.

Seriously? I'm never go to change your mind. You are committed to this belief.