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The JFK Assassination Records: The Picture is getting clearer


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Question for Jim - how can you say we now know it was the CIA with absolute certainty? When I look at Dallas I see far right military connections throughout the Police and the motorcade, and a thoroughly right wing Dallas corporate establishment, a city where the haters were in charge. I see a Vice President eager to assume leadership and commandeer the most important evidence - the body, the limousine, a secret service detail ready to follow his orders and willing to expose their president to extreme danger. 
I suppose I should ask you this basic question - what is the CIA? How do you define it? Under whose orders do they operate? What is the connection between the CIA and the military? Are they really two distinct organizations? How much evidence does one need to see that they are linked? 

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1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Question for Jim - how can you say we now know it was the CIA with absolute certainty? When I look at Dallas I see far right military connections throughout the Police and the motorcade, and a thoroughly right wing Dallas corporate establishment, a city where the haters were in charge. I see a Vice President eager to assume leadership and commandeer the most important evidence - the body, the limousine, a secret service detail ready to follow his orders and willing to expose their president to extreme danger. 
I suppose I should ask you this basic question - what is the CIA? How do you define it? Under whose orders do they operate? What is the connection between the CIA and the military? Are they really two distinct organizations? How much evidence does one need to see that they are linked? 

Paul,

    It's not really my place to answer a question that you are asking Jim DiEugenio-- a guy who is probably the world's leading expert on the JFK assassination-- but two things came to mind when I read your question.

1)  One of the de-classified JFK records in 2017 showed that Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (the brother of Allen Dulles' former Assistant CIA Director, General Charles Cabell) was a CIA asset in 1963.  I think Earl was in the lead car in the Dealey Plaza motorcade.

2)  Your question about CIA/military linkage gets at the heart of Col. L Fletcher Prouty's thesis in The Secret Team-- i.e., that key officials in multiple government agencies (including the Pentagon) were secretly reporting to Allen Dulles.  USAF General Ed Lansdale is one well known example.

Edited by W. Niederhut
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3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

    It's not really my place to answer a question that you are asking Jim DiEugenio-- a guy who is probably the world's leading expert on the JFK assassination-- but two things came to mind when I read your question.

1)  One of the de-classified JFK records in 2017 showed that Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (the brother of Allen Dulles' former Assistant CIA Director, General Charles Cabell) was a CIA asset in 1963.  I think Earl was in the lead car in the Dealey Plaza motorcade.

2)  Your question about CIA/military linkage gets at the heart of Col. L Fletcher Prouty's thesis in The Secret Team-- i.e., that key officials in multiple government agencies (including the Pentagon) were secretly reporting to Allen Dulles.  USAF General Ed Lansdale is one well known example.

I’m glad you mention Lansdale, a perfect example of the close ties between military and CIA. And of course the CIA asset mayor and his brother, close second to Dulles and a USAF Colonel. Indeed the various branches of the US Military have Intelligence branches. The distance between Allen Dulles and any General or Colonel is a phone call. De Mohrenschildt May or may not have been a CIA asset, but when he meets with officials in NYC and DC regarding ‘sisal’ it’s with Army Colonel Sam Kail and Dorothy Matlack of US Army Intel. (ACSI), along with CIA asset and Bush crony Thomas Devine. 

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Allen Dulles was a friend, supporter, and associate in public and private life of many high ranking people from politics, the military and big business. Certain people from all those three categories wanted Kennedy gone. It's quite possible that a plot involving other people could have used Dulles as a supporter or facilitator, or Dulles could have supported and helped out a plot once he'd heard about it, or Dulles jointly worked on a plot that was begun outside the CIA, or people outside the CIA approached Dulles and gained his assistance.

So while it's obvious that the CIA still maintains an interest in covering up the event, it's less clear to me that the CIA was the only group or org that put together and oversaw the plot. And I don't think everyone here has been arguing precisely that. But stating 'It was the CIA' seems to overlook those other groups of interest just a tad.

Edited by Anthony Thorne
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1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:

Allen Dulles was a friend, supporter, and associate in public and private life of many high ranking people from politics, the military and big business. Certain people from all those three categories wanted Kennedy gone. It's quite possible that a plot involving other people could have used Dulles as a supporter or facilitator, or Dulles could have supported and helped out a plot once he'd heard about it, or Dulles jointly worked on a plot that was begun outside the CIA, or people outside the CIA approached Dulles and gained his assistance.

So while it's obvious that the CIA still maintains an interest in covering up the event, it's less clear to me that the CIA was the only group or org that put together and oversaw the plot. And I don't think everyone here has been arguing precisely that. But stating 'It was the CIA' seems to overlook those other groups of interest just a tad.

Anthony,

       I agree.  We also have to include mainstream media moguls in the loop -- Henry Luce, (Life magazine) William S. Paley, (CBS) the Grahams, (WaPo) Sulzberger, (NYT) et.al.

      But who else, other than Dulles and "the CIA," had the black ops and psy ops expertise to organize and execute the JFKA hat trick (including the astonishing manipulation of the U.S. mainstream media?)

      That's what intrigues me about Fletcher Prouty's working theory of the JFK assassination.  Prouty made the point that his long-time colleague, Ed Lansdale, had the experience, skill, and contacts to do the Dallas job.  Among other things, Lansdale was a skilled psy ops man. (Lansdale had also worked with the anti-Castro Operation Mongoose guys.)

     Also, Ed Lansdale was Allen Dulles's favorite black ops guy, following Lansdale's remarkable success in the Philippines.

Edited by W. Niederhut
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2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Anthony,

       I agree.  We also have to include mainstream media moguls in the loop -- Henry Luce, (Life magazine) William S. Paley, (CBS) the Grahams, (WaPo) Sulzberger, (NYT) et.al.

      But who else, other than Dulles and "the CIA," had the black ops and psy ops expertise to organize and execute the JFKA hat trick (including the astonishing manipulation of the U.S. mainstream media?)

      That's what intrigues me about Fletcher Prouty's working theory of the JFK assassination.  Prouty made the point that his long-time colleague, Ed Lansdale, had the experience, skill, and contacts to do the Dallas job.  Among other things, Lansdale was a skilled psy ops man. (Lansdale had also worked with the anti-Castro Operation Mongoose guys.)

     Also, Ed Lansdale was Allen Dulles's favorite black ops guy, following Lansdale's remarkable success in the Philippines.

Lansdale did not have the inside connections with the people at J M Wave (that I know of) which I feel is where the operational part of the murder came from.  Though I imagine he was involved in the set up and coordination from a military standpoint.  E.G. site pre analysis and planning by a sniper team, even if they weren't the shooters.  Facilitating movement of personnel, accommodations, exit transportation afterwards, things he did usually with Prouty?  Psyops?  He had the motivation to cooperate after his passing over regarding Vietnam Ambassador.  His Philippine exploits are abhorrable.

I should probably read this thread.

 

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5 hours ago, Anthony Thorne said:

Allen Dulles was a friend, supporter, and associate in public and private life of many high ranking people from politics, the military and big business. Certain people from all those three categories wanted Kennedy gone. It's quite possible that a plot involving other people could have used Dulles as a supporter or facilitator, or Dulles could have supported and helped out a plot once he'd heard about it, or Dulles jointly worked on a plot that was begun outside the CIA, or people outside the CIA approached Dulles and gained his assistance.

So while it's obvious that the CIA still maintains an interest in covering up the event, it's less clear to me that the CIA was the only group or org that put together and oversaw the plot. And I don't think everyone here has been arguing precisely that. But stating 'It was the CIA' seems to overlook those other groups of interest just a tad.

Thoughts.  The CIA was formed by the East Coast Establishment and the Military Industrial Complex, Dulles was their point man, operational coordinator at an executive level.  Was he and them a limited hang out for them?  They with still enough clout to deny it all forever?

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16 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Question for Jim - how can you say we now know it was the CIA with absolute certainty? When I look at Dallas I see far right military connections throughout the Police and the motorcade, and a thoroughly right wing Dallas corporate establishment, a city where the haters were in charge. I see a Vice President eager to assume leadership and commandeer the most important evidence - the body, the limousine, a secret service detail ready to follow his orders and willing to expose their president to extreme danger. 
I suppose I should ask you this basic question - what is the CIA? How do you define it? Under whose orders do they operate? What is the connection between the CIA and the military? Are they really two distinct organizations? How much evidence does one need to see that they are linked? 

I think you are referring to Oliver, he said that in his Paris Match interview.  When you see the film, especially the four hour version, you will see what we are saying more fully.

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On 8/7/2021 at 7:51 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Sounds like something the WC would say...

I don't know how he said he saw them all if its really 31,000.  But I got from Mark that this is what is in the Gannon memo apparently after they did their review.

Adam, that was a good one.

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11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Lansdale did not have the inside connections with the people at J M Wave (that I know of) which I feel is where the operational part of the murder came from.  Though I imagine he was involved in the set up and coordination from a military standpoint.  E.G. site pre analysis and planning by a sniper team, even if they weren't the shooters.  Facilitating movement of personnel, accommodations, exit transportation afterwards, things he did usually with Prouty?  Psyops?  He had the motivation to cooperate after his passing over regarding Vietnam Ambassador.  His Philippine exploits are abhorrable.

I should probably read this thread.

 

Ron,

      After he was passed over for the position of Ambassador to South Vietnam, Ed Lansdale was appointed to run Operation Mongoose which, apparently, operated out of JMWave in Miami.  But I don't know what the JMWave organizational chart looked like.

       My impression is that Lansdale was, basically, an Allen Dulles factotum.  Prouty claimed that Lansdale, a psy ops expert, had contacts in the U.S. mainstream media with people like Joe Alsop.  And Dulles, obviously, had relationships with a lot of powerful people in the media.

       I think Talbot (in The Devil's Chessboard) described Dulles maintaining on-going, regular meetings with his "Secret Team" associates after JFK fired him.  And I read somewhere that Dulles was at "the Farm" at Langley on 11/22/63.

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The visit to the Farm was discussed in Talbot’s book. 

Less noted - can’t remember if Talbot brought it up - mid ‘63 Dulles was given a good excuse to travel around the country conducting appearances and meetings with various big wigs. His CRAFT OF INTELLIGENCE had just been published, and he decided to go on a wide ranging book tour. 

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6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ron,

      After he was passed over for the position of Ambassador to South Vietnam, Ed Lansdale was appointed to run Operation Mongoose which, apparently, operated out of JMWave in Miami.  But I don't know what the JMWave organizational chart looked like.

       My impression is that Lansdale was, basically, an Allen Dulles factotum.  Prouty claimed that Lansdale, a psy ops expert, had contacts in the U.S. mainstream media with people like Joe Alsop.  And Dulles, obviously, had relationships with a lot of powerful people in the media.

       I think Talbot (in The Devil's Chessboard) described Dulles maintaining on-going, regular meetings with his "Secret Team" associates after JFK fired him.  And I read somewhere that Dulles was at "the Farm" at Langley on 11/22/63.

W.

Here's the JMWAVE Org Chart. Redacted of course. - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48903#relPageId=3

Here's a description of the various branches - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48903#relPageId=2

This does not include those who had TDY (temp assignments) to JMWAVE such as William Kent and George Joannides.

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