Is Spike Lee the Oliver Stone of 9/11 Truth?

[W. Niederhut]

Spike Lee ‘back in the editing room’ on HBO 9/11 doc after backlash

https://nypost.com/2021/08/25/spike-lee-back-in-editing-room-on-hbo-9-11-doc-after-furor/

August 25, 2021

Spike Lee would like for you to please withhold judgment until you’ve seen the finished product.

The acclaimed director is apparently backtracking on the final cut of his upcoming HBO documentary series, “New York Epicenters: 9/11-2021½,” after he was slammed for including remarks from conspiracy theorists.

“I’m Back In The Editing Room And Looking At The Eighth And Final Chapter Of NYC EPICENTERS 9/11➔2021½,” Lee said in a Wednesday statement, The Wrap reported. “I Respectfully Ask You To Hold Your Judgement Until You See The FINAL CUT. I Thank You, Spike Lee.”

“Do the Right Thing” director Lee, 64, faced backlash following a Monday New York Times interview in which he admitted he doesn’t buy into “official explanations” of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. 

see also

Spike Lee says he believes 9/11 conspiracy theory: ‘I got questions’

In the story, the Oscar-winning filmmaker defended the conspiracy theorists he gives a platform to in his upcoming, four-part HBO documentary about 9/11. 

“I mean, I got questions — and I hope that maybe the legacy of this documentary is that Congress holds a hearing, a congressional hearing about 9/11,” he told the Times, going on to rant about the notorious jet fuel can’t melt steel beams conspiracy theory.

“The amount of heat that it takes to make steel melt, that temperature’s not reached. And then the juxtaposition of the way Building 7 fell to the ground — when you put it next to other building collapses that were demolitions, it’s like you’re looking at the same thing,” Lee said, arguing that people will make up their own minds and his approach is to “put the information in the movie and let people decide for themselves. I respect the intelligence of the audience.”

Lee was specifically called out for featuring members of the conspiracy group Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, whose members have suggested that government officials were involved in the World Trade Center collapse. The Oscar winner’s project also includes interviews with Mayor Bill de Blasio, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Sen. Chuck Schumer and front-line workers.

[W. Niederhut]

BTW, folks.  Jet fuel does not burn at a temperature that can liquefy steel-- something which definitely happened during the WTC demolitions on 9/11.

Rupert Murdoch's New York Post journalist (above) refers to Spike Lee ranting about, "the notorious jet fuel can’t melt steel beams conspiracy theory. "

But that's not a theory.  It's a scientific fact. 

Firemen described molten steel flowing "like a foundry" at Ground Zero, and you can see molten steel streaming from WTC1 and WTC2 (on film) during the explosive demolitions of those towers on 9/11.

Edited August 26, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

I am keeping an open mind.

And government commission and legislative "investigations" are always dubious, including the 9/11 Commission.  

HUAC? The Warren Commission? The HSCA? The Mueller Report? 

The government investigation mechanism has a few flaws....then the media gets on board, and the narrative is made.  

 

 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I am keeping an open mind.

And government commission and legislative "investigations" are always dubious, including the 9/11 Commission.  

HUAC? The Warren Commission? The HSCA? The Mueller Report? 

The government investigation mechanism has a few flaws....then the media gets on board, and the narrative is made.  

 

 

Hi Benjamin, 

I think the narrative gets made before the commission even starts its work, the commission then seems like it is reacting, confirming or rubber-stamping the story that has already been floated throughout the media and the majority of the public are consciously accepting (or subconsciously). For example; if you have the first 10 pages of every newspaper for months being saturated with terror stories, it does the work for the commission. 

Cheers

Chris

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Hi Benjamin, 

I think the narrative gets made before the commission even starts its work, the commission then seems like it is reacting, confirming or rubber-stamping the story that has already been floated throughout the media and the majority of the public are consciously accepting (or subconsciously). For example; if you have the first 10 pages of every newspaper for months being saturated with terror stories, it does the work for the commission. 

Cheers

Chris

 

Verily, you are right. The media is the blockers for the commissionistas running backs, and the national security state the coach-owner.  OK, this football analogy gets a bit clumsy and US-centric, but you know what I mean...

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Benjamin Cole
typo

[Micah Mileto]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

I hope Spike isn't forgetting the basic fact that ordinary fires can weaken steel. If not, he should know how bad it sounds to phrase his argument like that. Makes truthers look bad. There's plenty of actually legit information and questions to put in a big-budget 9/11 documentary.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Micah Mileto

[David Andrews]

Salon.com, a site founded by David Talbot, lumps all 9/11 skeptics and researchers together as "truthers," a term that unfortunately recalls Obama "birthers."  This story also claims that 9/11 skepticism also "paved the way" for QAnon.

Interested parties should leave comments below the story.  When they slam the Stone-DiEugenio documentary, they may similarly tar JFKA researchers.

https://www.salon.com/2021/08/25/spike-lee-9-11-documentary-conspiracy-theory-reedit-hbo/

[Guest]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

Salon.com, a site founded by David Talbot, lumps all 9/11 skeptics and researchers together as "truthers," a term that unfortunately recalls Obama "birthers."  This story also claims that 9/11 skepticism also "paved the way" for QAnon.

Interested parties should leave comments below the story.  When they slam the Stone-DiEugenio documentary, they may similarly tar JFKA researchers.

https://www.salon.com/2021/08/25/spike-lee-9-11-documentary-conspiracy-theory-reedit-hbo/

Just read the article, what a dreadful piece of journalism.  

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Just read the article, what a dreadful piece of journalism.  

One of the things articles on the Spike Lee doc point toward is dismissing or discrediting contributor Richard Gage, founder of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, using the doctored NIST tests of WTC construction as gospel.

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

I hope Spike isn't forgetting the basic fact that ordinary fires can weaken steel. If not, he should know how bad it sounds to phrase his argument like that. Makes truthers look bad. There's plenty of actually legit information and questions to put in a big-budget 9/11 documentary.

Micah,

     Office fires characteristically burn steel skyscrapers for extended periods of time without ever causing the steel substructures to collapse.  The examples are legion.*

     And the massive steel columns of WTC1 and WTC2 weren't merely "weakened."  Nor were they brought down by gravitational "pile drivers."  That's a pseudo-scientific (NIST) explanation for the near free-fall collapse and explosive pulverization of the Twin Towers on 9/11.  The steel columns were rapidly demolished (and liquefied) by steel-melting explosives.

     You can readily observe the serial explosions and molten steel cascades on film of the WTC demolitions.  It's basic empiricism.

     Multiple witnesses also described the serial explosions in those buildings.

     The real issue this week regarding Spike Lee is that the mainstream media moguls who have suppressed the scientific evidence about the explosive demolitions of the WTC on 9/11 for the past 20 years are now aggressively trying to block the American public from hearing the scientific evidence-- while falsely denigratng the scientists as "controversial conspiracy theorists."

     It's ludicrous-- because the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth haven't even published theories about who was responsible for 9/11.  They have simply focused on the overwhelming scientific evidence that the buildings were explosively demolished.

*  https://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

 

    

    

Edited August 26, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Micah Mileto]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

    

Below is a summary of why the foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse can be considered evidence of, not against, the controlled demolition hypothesis. I would consider it some of the best evidence. One does not have to discuss physics or fire dynamics to argue that WTC 7 was demolished intentionally.

These are the problems with the events on 9/11/2001 between the time of the second Twin Tower collapse (North Tower, WTC 1) at 10:28 AM and the collapse of Seven World Trade Center at 5:20 PM.

The time of the first evacuation of WTC 7

11:07 AM - CNN, New York reporter Allan Dodds Frank provided the following information:

Two or three minutes ago, there was yet another collapse or explosion. I'm now out of sight, a Good Samaritan has taken me in on Duane street. But at a quarter to eleven, there was another collapse or explosion following the ten thirty collapse of the second tower, and a firefighter rushed by us estimated that fifty stories went down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiGxI5WxZ0U

It is ambiguous if this counts as the first reference to the forty-eight story WTC 7 being in some structural danger.

According to FDNY spokesman Francis X. Gribbon in the 11/29/2001 New York Times article Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel by James Glanz, the first evacuation from WTC 7 happened at 11:30 AM:

Falling debris also caused major structural damage to the building, which soon began burning on multiple floors, said Francis X. Gribbon, a spokesman for the Fire Department. By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/29/nyregion/nation-challenged-site-engineers-have-culprit-strange-collapse-7-world-trade.html?mcubz=0

As we will see from the following statements, 11:30 AM is probably correct. Several statements from first responders indicate at least 4 hours foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse.

12/3/2001 World Trade Center task force interview of FDNY Chief Frank Fellini:

The major concern at that time at that particular location was number Seven, building number seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing.

So for the next five or six hours we kept firefighters from working anywhere near that building, which included the whole north side of the World Trade Center complex. Eventually around 5:00 or a little after, building number seven came down.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110217.PDF

12/7/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of FDNY Lieutenant Anthony Mancuso:

Civilians were coming out. We helped them across West Street and told them to head north. Then it got pretty -- like there was nobody coming out of the north tower. I'm not really sure if we got a transmission to stay away from the north tower or it just so happens I backed up north again up West Street and I was probably right about Vesey Street or probably just a little north of Vesey Street when the second tower came down.

Again, after that came down we knew we had all our members. We went back to some of the rubble from that and we had worked in that area for a short time and then we were told to keep feeding a couple of the tower ladders they had in front of 6 World Trade. They just didn't want anybody operating there. I think they were fearing about 7 World Trade coming down. So then we kept augmenting tower ladders and staying away from that collapse area.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110271.PDF

Again, the foreknowledge of WTC 7's collapse starting very shortly after the North Tower collapsed.

10/11/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango:

A. The second building came down. I didn't go back down to -- I didn't go back down to Church Street after that. I went up to Broadway by City Hall Park. There was a couple of municipal ambulances there which set up a temporary treatment area. There were a lot of firemen coming to us with debris in their eyes.

Q. What was this location?

A. It was right across the street from City Hall Park on Broadway by the Duane Reade store. I'm not sure what the street is.

There were two ambulances there, two municipal ambulances there. We set up like a little mini treatment area. We had several firemen come up to us, several police officers. We flushed their eyes out, put them on oxygen if they were having some trouble breathing.

After I think maybe about 30, 45 minutes EMS citywide came up on the air and requested a supervisor, if there were any supervisors on the air. They made the request several times. Nobody answered. I came up on the air and told them I was available.

They asked me to report to -- establish a staging area at West Broadway and Chambers, which I did. I went up to Broadway and Chambers. When I got there, there was approximately maybe 20, 25 ambulances there mixed: municipal, voluntary, volunteer ambulances. We started establishing a treatment area there.

A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the facade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. I felt the location we were at was too close to Seven World Trade Center.

So we advised citywide we were moving the staging area to North End and Greenwich Street.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

Other first responder's statements indicating an evacuation 4+ hours in advance of WTC 7's collapse include Anthony Salerno, Christopher Patrick Murray, William Melarango

The special engineer

FDNY Chief Peter Hayden is quoted in Dennis Smith's 2002 book Report From Ground Zero:

We were concerned about additional collapses, stability of the hotel and the rest of the facade there; plus, we still had 7 World Trade Center, which was burning also. We were worried about that collapsing, and it did collapse, about six hours later. There was a conscious decision to let that building burn and just keep everybody clear.

download ebook for free here or here.

And a more specific statement from Hayden appears in the 2013 court document Aegis Insurance Services, Inc. v. 7 World Trade Center Company, L.P.:

Chief of Department Peter Hayden consulted with an engineer:

We posed to him the question that considering the structural damage that was obvious to the – to the building on the southwest corner, and the amount of fire damage that was occurring within the building, could we anticipate a collapse and if so, when. He said yes and he gave an approximate time of five to six hours, which was pretty much right on the money because the building collapsed about 5 o’clock that afternoon

https://web.archive.org/web/20150802154917/http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/a3c33b98-9cbf-4b82-b557-6088e207c8f6/1/doc/11-4403_complete_opn.pdf

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/11-4403/11-4403-2013-12-04.html

It is not known where this quote by Hayden originates.

Hayden said much of the same in the BBC's 2008 special The Conspiracy Files: The Third Tower (note: the previous version of this documentary, similarly titled The Truth Behind The Third Tower, contains a scene where Shyam Sunder of NIST erroneously denies that freefall occurred in WTC 7):

We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, 'if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?' And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’

So we have Peter Hayden establishing the existence of a person identifying themselves as an expert who somehow made the precise forecast that WTC 7 would collapse in "about five or six hours".

5:21 PM - 5 hours = 12:21 PM

5:21 PM - 6 hours = 11:21 AM

5:00 PM - 5 hours = 12:00 PM

5:00 PM - 6 hours = 11:00 AM

The second Twin Tower (WTC 1, North Tower) collapsed at 10:28 AM. This prediction of WTC 7's collapse happened only an hour after the North Tower collapsed. How could ANYBODY predict then with such accuracy that WTC 7 would collapse? the official story is that WTC 7 fell due to office fires, but we know that the fires couldn't have even been that bad by 11:30-12:00 PM. Because, as NIST pointed out in their WTC 7 report, there is no photographic evidence of fires in the building until 12:10 PM.

In a 8/25/2008 discussion with Graeme McQueen and Shayam Sunder on CKNX talk radio, Shyam briefly spoke of the existence of the special engineer:

The July sixth BBC program also explained some of the other aspects about advanced knowledge, the only issue about the advanced knowledge was the fact that there was a technical advisor or engineer who was called by- who was providing advice to city agencies on nine-eleven about the condition of buildings, and particularly building seven. And it has his or her judgment- I believe it was a 'him'- it was his judgment that he was hearing creaking sounds, which is entirely appropriate, consistent with fires causing damage to connections and members. And he was hearing such sounds that would suggest that the building may come down. And he of course was observing the fires of the building as well, so based on that advice, the fire department decided around mid-morning, mid-afternoon, around two-thirty in the afternoon to decide to abandon fighting the fires in that building. So, it is something that people were expecting could happen based on what they were seeing and hearing.

http://911blogger.com/news/2008-08-25/dr-graeme-macqueen-and-dr-shyam-sunder-interviewed-ontario-radio-8252008

Mp3 file, quote appears at 28:34: https://web.archive.org/web/20091011071330/http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/macqueen-sunder-8-25-2008.mp3

In the book September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy, firefighter Michael Currid is also quoted speaking of 'someone from the Office of Emergency Management' who is probably this same 'engineer' fellow:

Someone from the Office of Emergency Management told us that this building was in serious danger of collapse. The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should no lose anyone else trying to save it. Rich, a few other people and I went inside to the stairwells and started yelling up "Drop everything and get out!" It didn't collapse until much later in the afternoon, but we felt it was better to get everybody out.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pV1AqPxMnqUC&pg=PT172&lpg=PT172&dq=september+11+oral+history+%22The+consensus+was+that+it+was+basically+a+lost+cause+and+we+should+not+lose+anyone+else+trying+to+save+it%22&source=bl&ots=EHgxa9jt7h&sig=HEjg_4bvTDNk3GEaUWz6CTmBtVg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0-NOetKrLAhXHlYMKHXMYASUQ6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=september%2011%20oral%20history%20%22The%20consensus%20was%20that%20it%20was%20basically%20a%20lost%20cause%20and%20we%20should%20not%20lose%20anyone%20else%20trying%20to%20save%20it%22&f=false

In an attempt to gather more information about this "special engineer", I tried filing FOIA requests for the transcripts of a few interviews of FDNY fire chiefs conducted by NIST for their World Trade Center investigation. I only got back a rejection stating the issue had to do with 'privacy concerns'. So I tried filing a FOIA request for a simple list of names of people interviewed by NIST. I only got back a burned CD with a spreadsheet of REDACTED names.

In the NIST WTC 7 Final Report, the only acknowledgement of the advanced knowledge of it's collapse reads as follows:

2.2.3 10:29 to 5:21 p.m. EDT

The emergency responders quickly recognized that WTC 7 had been damaged by the collapse of WTC 1. A number of fire teams entered WTC 7 to examine the damage, locate fires and possibly extinguish them, and search for occupants.

As early as 11:30 a.m., FDNY recognized that there was no water coming out of the hydrant system to fight the fires that were visible. With the collapses of the towers fresh in their minds, there was concern that WTC 7 too might collapse, risking the lives of additional firefighters. Within the next two hours, serious discussions were underway regarding the cessation of any efforts to save WTC 7, and the final order to cease was given at about 2:30 p.m. The Con Edison substation was shut down at about 4:33 p.m. (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 6).

Now that we have seen that the advanced knowledge of WTC 7's collapse started with this "special engineer", let's see how certain the first responders became of Seven's imminent demise as a result of this prediction. It certainly was more than a vague "concern".

The absolute certainty that WTC 7 would collapse.

1/22/2002 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter Timothy Burke:

The rest of the day we were unloading trucks. We were just doing whatever little things we could do, but they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to fall. I didn't call my wife until 4:00 o'clock that afternoon to tell her I was okay.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110488.PDF

1/17/2002 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter Thomas Donato:

We came around, I think we took Murray Street down the west side, and we stopped the rig and pulled over to the side and we all got out of the rig. We were standing, waiting for seven to come down. We were there for quite a while, a couple hours.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110471.PDF

12/29/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter James Wallace:

After that as time went on, we just kept searching. They were saying building seven was going to collapse, so we regrouped and went back to our rig. We went to building four or three; I don't know. We were going to set up our tower ladder there. They said no good because building seven is coming down.

We waited for building seven to come down. Then we went around the corner with our tower ladder, set that up and shot water on it until about 12:30 at night. We got relief finally. Then we went to the hospital, got our eyes washed out.

That's about it.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110409.PDF

11/9/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of EMT Joseph Fortis:

A. When the third building came down, that's where we were. We were actually -- they pulled us all back.

Q. Yeah, Stuyvesant is all the way up here just north of Chambers.

A. They had some boats over here. Actually they pulled us all the way back that far at the point because they didn't want any -- they didn't want us anywhere near it. Everyone was just running around. When the third building came down, we were on that corner in front of the school, and everybody just stood back. They pulled us all back at the time, almost about an hour before it, because they were sure -- they knew it was going to come down, but they weren't sure. So they pulled everyone back, and everybody stood there and we actually just waited and just waited and waited until it went down, because it was unsafe. They wouldn't let anyone next to I guess the two piles, we would call them, where one and two was. We stood back. We waited.

Then after the building came down and the dust and everything settled, everybody actually went back. Everybody was just moving things, and we were actually picking up a lot of body parts and putting them in red bags and just having them shipped to the morgue and this and that. We did that for a couple hours, and it started to get dark.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110200.PDF

12/4/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter Vincent Massa:

But they weren't letting guys too close. At this point Seven World Trade Center was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down.

We hung out for hours. We went into the American Express building. We looked around there. We searched around for a while, but you could see guys were already in there. We pretty much did that on our own because we were right there and the door was there and we just walked in.

I remember later on in the day it was getting close that they were more concerned about seven coming down. We had no idea what was going on on the east side. We were all on our side. On the west side it was pretty clear. The wind was blowing from west to east, I believe.

I remember later on in the day as we were waiting for seven to come down, they kept backing us up Vesey, almost like full block. They were concerned about seven coming down, and they kept changing us, establishing a collapse zone and backing us up.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110222.PDF

10/9/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter Matthew Long:

Because they were just adamant about 7 coming down immediately. I think we probably got out of that rubble and 18 minutes later is when 7 came down. So I watched -- we watched. There was a command station right here on Vesey. We were here with a whole group of guys. We watched 7 come down and then we went through, I guess this is the morgue now, Merrill Lynch, we went through that building there and there was an atrium we came through to go back on the other side and try to get back in to help.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110021.PDF

Unknown first responder(s) on street from CNN footage of 9/11/2001:

The building is about to blow up, move it back.

...

We are walking back 'cause the building is about to blow up- flame and debris coming down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_43SwWD9A

Note: this is not to imply that this person had any knowledge of any plan to demolish the building with explosives, it is just illustrated that the first responders were so sure of WTC 7's imminent demise that it would be appropriate to use the common idiom "[that thing] is about to blow up".

The following account especially stresses the issue of certainty:

1/17/2002 World Trade Center Task Force interview of firefighter Edward Kennedy:

That was the only Mayday that I remember, and to tell you the truth, the only guy that really stands out in my mind that I remember being on the radio was Chief Visconti. I remember him talking and giving directions and this and that. But this is as the day was going on and, of course, there were so many transmissions going over. I remember him screaming about 7, No. 7, that they wanted everybody away from 7 because 7 was was definitely going to collapse, they don't know when, but it's definitely going to come down, just get the hell out of the way, everybody get away from it, make sure you're away from it, that's an order, you know, stuff like that.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110502.PDF

And this one is a real clincher:

10/11/2001 World Trade Center Task Force interview of EMT Decosta Wright:

Q. Were you there when building 7 came down in the afternoon?

A. Yes.

Q. You were still there?

A. Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand.

Q. So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?

A. 5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud stopped right there. Then when that building was coming down, the same thing, the same rumbling. That's why I like, for a couple of weeks, every little sound that I heard. It was unreal.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110054.PDF

It is true that there was a five-block perimeter made around WTC 7 for safety reasons, but here we can see that they were fully preparing for WTC 7 to completely collapse into a large dust cloud just like the Twin Towers.

THIS is the reason why there were at least three false media reports that WTC 7 collapsed in the hours and minutes before it actually did. Not some cockamamie conspiracy involving the mainstream media!

Was WTC 7 leaning? What about the bulge in the perimeter the firefighters saw?

There is this clip of a firefighter named "Miller" saying on the scene before WTC 7 collapsed that you could see the entire building leaning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XImQ6a-VrnA

In Firehouse Magazine, April 2002, FDNY Chief Peter Hayden explained the following:

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120109093422/http://www.firehouse.com/article/10567885/deputy-chief-peter-hayden?page=4

Here we have a statement indicating that the "bulge" on the side of the building was noticed some time around 2:00 PM or shortly before, which is after the prediction of WTC 7's collapsed had already been made. This can not be considered an indication that the entire structure was in danger, this was most likely an insignificant portion of the building's perimeter warping from the heat of the fires. The same thing can be said about the "leaning" claim. The movement noticed on the surveying transit by the fire chiefs could just be an insignificant portion of the perimeter warping from the heat of the fires. NOT an indicator of an imminent collapse like the Twin Towers.

So why does that firefighter in the video claim that you could tell the entire building was leaning at the time? This was most likely a psychological trick or an optical illusion caused by the building not being next to the Twin Towers any more. NO photographic study by NIST, or any photographic expert, or even a layman, has presented evidence that the entire building was leaning.

There is a similar confusion with the North Tower. Here is how Wikipedia describes the condition of the North Tower:

After the South Tower collapsed, NYPD helicopters relayed information about the deteriorating conditions of the North Tower. At 10:20 am, the NYPD aviation unit reported that "the top of the tower might be leaning", and a minute later reported that the North Tower, "is buckling on the southwest corner and leaning to the south". At 10:28 am, the aviation unit reported that "the roof is going to come down very shortly". The North Tower collapsed at 10:28 am, after burning for 102 minutes.

Gee, that sucker was hanging on a thread. Whoever thinks it was a demolition must be bonkers! But wait, there is NO photographic study which provides evidence that the entire top portion of the North Tower was leaning. We do have photographic evidence showing that some perimeter columns eventually started bowing slightly inward, but again, what happens to a few perimeter wall units can not be used to explain the North Tower's core-led collapse. The perimeter wall units bowing bowing inwards probably created an optical illusion that may have made the top look uneven.

Further information, compiled statements from first responders on WTC 7

3/26/2011 presentation by Graeme MacQueen - Foreknowledge of Building 7's Collapse [1:20:07]

Journal of 9/11 Studies - Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories by Graeme MacQueen

website World Trade Center Building 7 and the Lies of the "9/11 Truth Movement" subsection Eyewitness accounts of withdrawal and hold back from WTC 7 due to danger, also see Accounts of WTC 7 Damage and Eyewitness Accounts of WTC 7 Fires (Please note: this site was created by Mark Roberts, a defender of the official story on internationalskeptics.com, the former James Randi Education Forum)

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html

Consensus 9/11 - Point WTC7-7: Foreknowledge of the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7

ReThink911.org - Foreknowledge of Collapse

Shoestring 9/11 - How Did They Know Building 7 Was Going to Collapse?

911research.wtc7.net - WTC 7 Collapse Foreknowledge - Reports of Foreknowledge of the Collapse of Building 7 in the Oral Histories

Wtc7.net - Eyewitness Accounts of Foreknowledge of WTC 7's Collapse

[Micah Mileto]

Misadventures on InternationalSkeptics.com, dubious claims of knowing the identity of the special engineer

The issue of the special engineer was brought up on InternationalSkeptics.com, the former James Randi Educational Forum, a site with a long-standing history of users debating mostly in favor of the official 9/11 story. A user only known as "Crazy Chainsaw", who says he is engineer of some kind, claimed to know the person described by FDNY Chief Hayden as correctly predicting that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours". The conversation goes as follows:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307442&page=19

Micahjava to tfk:

It is very strange that any person would try to predict such a thing in the first place, even if he was wrong. Are you saying he was right from sheer luck?

tfk to Micahjava:

I'm saying that it is EXTREMELY doubtful that anybody made any such prediction at all.

And absolutely nobody made any prediction with any sort of the certainty that you are (stupidly) suggesting.

I'm saying that, just like the myth that "the towers were designed to withstand jet impacts", this story grew after the fact.

There is absolutely zero way that any competent technical person would make any sort of prediction like that.

He'd say, "let me watch it for awhile, to see if the leaning stops, stays increasing at a constant rate, or accelerates. I'll keep you posted as I gather information."

There is absolutely ZERO doubt that the FDNY officials kept in touch with this guy as the afternoon progressed, getting updates.

Apparently, he had gathered enough information by the time that they ordered everyone out of, and back away from, the building, to suggest to him that the building was in danger of collapse.

And that's it.

There is no way for anyone to have predicted, at 11:30 AM, when the building would collapse.

And I don't believe that anyone did.

LOTS of stories grow, and morph, over time.

You, Micah, have not shown any new information about this. The only thing that you've done is behave like the most incompetent reporter/researcher: assuming that a couple of very specific statements must be precisely, exactly true, as stated.

That is NOT the way the real world works.

And now, this little theory of yours, has become "your baby". That you will defend at all costs, no matter how baseless, or untenable, that defense becomes. Extracting these quotes, writing these posts, assuming that your throwing your made-up precision onto other people's casual statements, makes you look like a biased idiot.

If you've got the bit between your teeth on this absurd little anomaly, then start acting like a REAL researcher & start making phone calls to the people involved.

If you speak to them respectfully, and not like a Twoofer Dick, perhaps they'll talk to you.

If they hang up on you, you can blame all the previous Twoofer Dicks who have harassed them over the years.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Take really, really good notes. Stay away from leading questions. __

PS. After you're done, you still have precisely zero evidence whatsoever, that WTC7 was brought down by CD.

You'll have to gather that evidence completely separately.

Crazy Chainsaw to tfk:

Actually he did predict that if the fires were unfought there was a (chance) the building (could collapse) in 5-6 hours after that the fires would die down, and the steel would cool reducing collapse probability. Give you a clue only one Engineer was on site at that date.

Micahjava to tfk:

Peter Hayden recalled almost the same thing when he was on the 2008 Conspiracy Files program: "We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon? And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, In its current state, you have about five hours."

I'm sure you are also aware of the handful of testimonies that say that the first evacuation of WTC 7 came around 5+ hours before it collapsed.

Shayam Sunder has also spoken about this unidentified engineer person.

I'm not holding out hope that FOIA requests of NIST's interviews will be granted, but if they are I'll post them.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

What are you talking about?

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

Unless you know the engineer, and what he actually said, that is he based the probability of collapse in 5-6 hours on the fuel load in the buildings not on Physical damage to the building, after six hours the fires would not have produced enough heat to weaken the steel. Some of us here have actually spoken with the engineer personally.

tfk to Crazy Chainsaw:

What can you show me about his original statement? __

Here's my problem with the quote, as it is portrayed.

If I'm taking that measurement, and I the building has fires & unknown amounts of internal damage (but significant damage visible from the outside), and I know that all tall buildings are unique designs ...

... and I see from the transit measurements that the building is unstable ...

... and my best guess is 5 to 6 hours from now ...

... then there is absolutely no way that I'm going to tell anybody "I think that it'll collapse 5 to 6 hours from now."

Because some management dufus might report to somebody, "tfk said it's going to collapse between 5 & 6 hours from now." And based on that, some other dufus might decide, "well, let's fight the fire for another 3 hours. That'll give us a 2 hour margin to pull everyone out before it collapses."

I'm instead going to be REALLY clear, and say, "It might collapse any minute. It's unstable. But, if forced to make a guess, I'd guess 'sometime between 5 & 6 hours from now'."

I can easily see how the first part of the statement might be dropped in the re-telling of the story.

Now, perhaps I'm wrong about this. Perhaps this guy has some tilt angle that his experience tells him is the critical angle. Perhaps this angle is the same for differing building heights (although I seriously doubt this). >Perhaps he's got some chart of "critical angle vs. building height", although I kinda doubt this too.

Perhaps he was able to do some calculation of tilt rate, current angle & "time to reaching critical angle". But I doubt that, also.

Maybe he was going just by his gut.

But I believe it to be incredibly dangerous for him & for others to have said, "I think that it'll collapse between 5 & 6 pm."

Even if that is exactly what I thought would happen.

And I'm a guy who loves to take chances. That's not one I'd take.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

What he actually said and did.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

This completely contradicts what you have said earlier when you postulated that the "5-6 hour" prediction came from measuring creep on the building.

If you can provide the identity of this person, along with a statement by him, and any number of firefighters who were there who can verify his identity, I will drop the CD stuff on a dime.

Crazy Chainsaw to tfk:

What he said was the building could collapse from damage and (fire with in 5-6 hours) After that the fuel for the fires will be exausted., and the fires will die down, the building although damaged will then likely survive.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

The creep was only one factor the other was the fires, no engineer would solely look at just one factor.

As the creep and fire continued everyone knew the building was going to collapse.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

Crazy Chainsaw, you have made an extraordinary claim and I ask for extraordinary evidence.

tfk to Micahjava:

So, let's see if I've got this straight...

ALL of your "WTC7 was a CD" hangs on this one, trivial little nit???

Do you accept that the towers were not a CD?

There are literally hundreds of the world's best structural engineers, who have assured everyone that this was not, could not possibly have been, a CD. That the evidence proves unequivocally that it was NOT a CD.

There is a friggin' encyclopedic body of work (the NIST report & the several independent reports done by other engineers) that conclude that it was not a CD.

But because of this one unknown statement by some unknown person, you've decided that they all might be wrong. Or fraudulent & evil.

Keerist on a bicycle, kid... Have you ever heard the expression, "chasing an anomaly"??

tfk to Crazy Chainsaw:

Ahhhh, thank you.

This is a completely different message than "the building will collapse between 5 & 6 hours from now."

Micah, you seem to be the person all driven atwitter by this quote.

Please post the exact quotes that you have, from the several people, along with links to their original quotes (NOT links to truther sites, please).

Micahjava to tfk:

I already posted two quotes from Chief Peter Hayden and one from Firefighter Michael Currid.

On 8/25/2008, Graeme McQueen and Shayam Sunder had a half-hour discussion on Ontario Radio, and at some time Shayam briefly mentions the existence of this engineer person.

However, Crazy Chainsaw is claiming that he has literally spoken to this person and now I'm not satisfied without proof.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

Why is the fact I know the engineer, extraordinary, I know lots of people, my fiend Thomas W. Eagar I believe, was the one who gave me his email address, I promised to keep his name and email confidential.

I have also shaken hands with Jay Leno, and was on his show, so what?

Life is experiences, where you go and who you meet on the journey.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

Naaaah, I don't want to go emailing Mr. Eagar and have him ignore me. I'm wondering if you're lying. You claim to have personally spoken with the walking, talking holy grail of CD debunking.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

I have talked with a lot of people on 9/11 after the news article in 2006 featuring me so what?

PS. I have also talked personally with Steven Jones, Dr.Frank Greening, Fetzer, and many others so what?

People respect and respond to you when your truthful and respectful.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

Why should I believe you?

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

I really do not care if you (believe me or not), up to you, oh incidently there is a joke hidden in that sentence for the old timers here who know me. Something About why I have the name I have on my avatar. I also happen to be some what famous as a one of a kind.

PS. I can tell you the engineer your looking for had detailed knowledge of building 7 his firm built it.

Tony Szamboti to Crazy Chainsaw:

It sounds like you meant his firm designed it, and that the engineer was Irwin Cantor himself or someone from Cantor Engineering.

Crazy Chainsaw to Tony Szamboti:

I can't tell you exactly who but you're close, you want the person with the most knowledge of the existing building too make a call like that, he has to also know what is stored in the building to know the fuel loading. The fuel load being critical to determination of the time of most risk of collapse. I didn't understand that myself until the engineer explained it to me.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

Why did Michael Currid say that the engineer came from the Office of Emergency Management?

jaydeehess to Micahjava:

Have you checked that no engineers with OEM had previously worked for the firm that designed WTC7?

Micahjava to jaydeehess:

I'll have to call WTC 7 to see what records they have

edit: ****

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

Are you saying the office of emergency management would not subcontract an engineering firm? Usually that is how it works, you don't need emergency management engineers all the time, best to subcontract, to an engineering firm.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

When and where did this engineer show up?

Micahjava to Axxman300:

What basis was there at 11:30 AM to judge if and when the building would collapse?

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

He was already at the training exercise that morning.

Micahjava to Crazy Chainsaw:

Yeah, for all I know you're playing games. It seems like your claim about knowing the engineer Peter Hayden spoke to is about as credible as Beverly Oliver saying she's Babushka Lady.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

It was on fire and the fires were not being extinguished.

Crazy Chainsaw to Micahjava:

As I said I don't care what you believe. What is, is what was ,was.

[W. Niederhut]

      Well, this is truly historic, folks--  an orchestrated, full-court press by key players in the U.S. mainstream media to suppress the scientific evidence of the explosive WTC demolitions, and to falsely impugn the reputations and research of thousands of accredited architects and engineers who have thoroughly debunked the bogus NIST computer "simulation" of the 9/11 demolitions.

      The Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth are not kooky "conspiracy theorists."  They are physicists, architects, and engineers.  They have reputable academic and professional credentials.  Why won't these M$M propagandists tell America the truth about that fact?

      What the M$M is doing this week is comparable to their suppression and misrepresentation of the evidence in the JFK assassination case, (including the Zapruder film) and the coordinated media denigration of JFKA "truthers" like Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone.

      Who is onboard with this anti-9/11 Truth disinformation campaign?  Practically everyone-- from Slate, NYT, WaPo, Vanity Fair to Variety.

      In effect, these M$M players are covering for the perpetrators of the 9/11 op.

Spike Lee’s 9/11 Doc Didn’t Just Include Conspiracy Theories—It Promoted Them

A rundown of what exactly NYC Epicenters 9/11 → 2021 ½ contained before Lee decided, thankfully, to recut it.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/08/spike-lees-911-doc-promoted-conspiracy-theories

[Jeff Carter]

Yes, very similar to the attacks on Stone's "JFK" well before the film was even released. Dual purpose of getting out ahead with the preferred narrative, and perhaps influencing changes to the film itself. Seems like Spike Lee is revising the segment in question in response to the attacks.

Like the JFKA, forensic certainty about how the buildings collapsed will never be satisfactorily achieved because the debris was removed before it could be analyzed (while JFK suffered poor and confusing autopsy). Regardless, there is plenty of less-publicized incriminating activity to support the notion of an inside job. A passive cover-up continues today with the frequent description of the 2001 Afghanistan invasion as necessary because the Taliban were hosting the responsible terrorists.

[Paul Brancato]

I think the guy arrested and still held in Guantanamo, who are govt thinks was the organizer of the 9/11 attack, is a patsy. 
my only problem with the 9/11 ‘truthers’ is that they focus on melting steel, controlled demolitions, building 7. We will argue about those things forever. Far more interesting to me are the redacted pages on Saudi Arabia in the 9/11 Commission report, Senator Bob Graham’s dissension on that issue (he is the much younger brother of WAPO’s Phil Graham) and his subsequent fictional novel. If anyone has read Bernard Levy’s book on Daniel Pearl’s Pakistan kidnapping, it’s the British born Pakistani that arranged that kidnapping who should be looked at. But we all know of US blind eye to Pakistan, who after all created the Taliban. No one wants to look. Like with JFK, we spend little time on Who done it.