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Smoke on the grassy knoll


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Back in 1965, when I first bought my set of the Warren Commission's 26 Volumes, I encountered witnesses (notably, Sam Holland, standing on the Triple Underpass) who reported  --at the time of the shooting -- smoke or steam coming from under the trees behind the fence on the grassy knoll.  I'm not a gun expert, but back when I was temporarily employed by Ramparts and writing "The Case for Three Assassins" (summer of 1966; published in issue dated December 1966), my co-author David Welsh and I included a small section devoted to witnesses who saw smoke (and I even found an account of a witness in one of the press busses, that that just turned from Main onto Houston Street, and who reported seeing "puffs of smoke" from the area behind the fence on the knoll).

Since it has repeatedly emphasized --in discussion and debates --that "guns don't smoke" (at least modern guns do not), I'd be interested in what various members of this forum think of this phenomenon.  

What was the cause of the smoke?  I'd like to collect as many responses as possible; and you may be very brief, if you wish.

(There is no "prize for the winner." I'm just interested in gathering data).

Thanks.

DSL

Current Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Email:

dlifton@earthlink.net

dlifton@gmail.com

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lifton
spellib
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The first time I heard this I looked on YouTube for examples of modern guns smoking since I've only fired weapons in the Army a long time ago. So, the first few seconds should suffice as examples or go to 1:42.  Unless the ammunition was. specially set up to smoke .   

Lots of smoke from rifles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhrUNdPFls

 

Edited by Bill Fite
clarification of what is in video
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51A5666D-8B64-461A-A151-75A3DA2386BE.jpeg.3f194c7793dd6a7efa4b77ee932150eb.jpeg

If the info above is correct, it seems a ‘dirty’  weapon is likely to produce smoke. The fence shooter had to be a pro - one (very important) shot, moving target, multiple occupants. Don’t pros/assassins/hitmen love and cherish their weapons cleaning them religiously? Or is that just in films. Surely a disposable junkheap Carcano wouldn’t be appreciated by any shooter worth his salt.

Either that or he used a musket.

 

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Either it's just my imagination or I have a vague memory of reading that there was a steam pipe that ran along the top of the GK fence. True or false? It sounds like something a lone nutter might come up with in a pipe dream. I don't recall any pipe along the fence when I visited there in 1990.

 

 

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Pat Speer's five chapters on the Dealey Plaza mention "smoke" every time there is a "smoke on the knoll" witness, and his chapters have the best cataloging. It wouldn't be hard to use CTR+F to tally up every known smoke witnness.

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Years ago I posted on this Forum an explanation of gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza.

Modern-day gun enthusiasts will affirm guns can and do smoke, depending on the gunpowder used. Cheaper ammo tends to smoke more. 

Pistols and revolvers issue more smoke than long guns, due to more "muzzle blast." Snub-nose .38s smoke the most. 

The snub-nose .38 was the default concealed weapon of choice in the 1950s and 1960s.

Moreover, many people "hand load" ammo for the .38s. That is, they save and re-use the shells, filling the shells with their own gunpowder. There are smokey gunpowders on the market for theatrical purposes. 

I am open to the argument that the Grassy Knoll shots were an intentional diversion. The guy with the Secret Service credentials near the Grassy Knoll had a .38 and fired twice, resulting in a lot of noise and smoke.  The diversion worked well.  

But why three audible shots for most witnesses? Some shots may have been concurrent, or heard concurrently (due to the speed of sound). Other shots may have issued from silenced weapons or even pneumatic guns. And some people did hear four shots. 

Unfortunately, the medical evidence has been so monkeyed with that drawing conclusions from it is difficult. 

The Z film appears to show three shots hit occupants of the president limo, and in too-rapid succession to have been issued from a single-shot bolt action rifle. There may have been simultaneous shots striking JFK in frame 313.  Some shots may have missed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The Z film appears to show three shots hit occupants of the president limo, and in too-rapid succession to have been issued from a single-shot bolt action rifle. There may have been simultaneous shots striking JFK in frame 313.  Some shots may have missed.  

And the three shots hitting 3 times is confirmed by two of the car’s occupants - the Connally’s their entire lives.  And it was also the preferred shot sequence put forth by the FBI two weeks after the assassination initially embraced by the WC until Tague’s story got publicity.

I believe Tague was hit by debris from a first missed shot that JFK reacts to as well as the little girl in the white sweater running towards the limo in Z-film but less people heard it.

In any case, with your earlier post about the bullet entry into Connally’s coat resembling the entry in JFK’s, case closed on conspiracy for me - there were at least two shooters.  It’s obvious (now).

People understandably focused on JFK’s back and the left reaction to the head shot, but everyone overlooked the obvious when Z-film was finally released - Connally is unharmed as he turns to check on the president, just like he said he was. 

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9 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

And the three shots hitting 3 times is confirmed by two of the car’s occupants - the Connally’s their entire lives.  And it was also the preferred shot sequence put forth by the FBI two weeks after the assassination initially embraced by the WC until Tague’s story got publicity.

I believe Tague was hit by debris from a first missed shot that JFK reacts to as well as the little girl in the white sweater running towards the limo in Z-film but less people heard it.

In any case, with your earlier post about the bullet entry into Connally’s coat resembling the entry in JFK’s, case closed on conspiracy for me - there were at least two shooters.  It’s obvious (now).

People understandably focused on JFK’s back and the left reaction to the head shot, but everyone overlooked the obvious when Z-film was finally released - Connally is unharmed as he turns to check on the president, just like he said he was. 

Hello Michaleen:

 

Testimony before the HSCA:

"Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"

---30---

I should probably highlight this aspect of the Nov. 22 events a little more. Connally himself, and other witnesses, describe him as immediately incapacitated upon being shot.  Which makes sense of course. 

To state the obvious, if JBC had been shot at the same moment as the first shot to JFK, then we would expect to see JBC crumpling as he emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, in the Z film.  Instead, he sits bolt upright, as if startled.  

This seems clear to me. 

There is another post coming on the strange path of Connally's shirt after the JFKA.  You can't make this stuff up. 

I am getting zero traction getting a publication to print my Connally-shirt-bullet hole story. Even with your sexy lede. So it goes....

 

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2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Hello Michaleen:

 

Testimony before the HSCA:

"Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"

---30---

I should probably highlight this aspect of the Nov. 22 events a little more. Connally himself, and other witnesses, describe him as immediately incapacitated upon being shot.  Which makes sense of course. 

To state the obvious, if JBC had been shot at the same moment as the first shot to JFK, then we would expect to see JBC crumpling as he emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, in the Z film.  Instead, he sits bolt upright, as if startled.  

This seems clear to me. 

There is another post coming on the strange path of Connally's shirt after the JFKA.  You can't make this stuff up. 

I am getting zero traction getting a publication to print my Connally-shirt-bullet hole story. Even with your sexy lede. So it goes....

 

That’s the name of the game. In PR we tell our clients it’s called ‘earned media’ for a reason. Very difficult but very valuable too. Hope someone accepts the article.

Yeah it’s amazing the USG got the American public to overlook that the testimony of the other guy shot in the limo completely contradicts the WC and its single bullet BS. Oh and he also happens to be the governor of Texas.

It’s like when they accepted the testimony of Ruby over reporter Seth Kantor who saw him at Parkland.

That’s some major propaganda achievement.

Edited by Michaleen Kilroy
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So the smoke, seen by Sam Holland and others, the smell of gunpowder by Ralph Yarborough (and others?), and the sound of gunshots heard by many causing them to rush towards the grassy knoll, was all a distraction to divert attention from the sixth floor or elsewhere?  While coincidentally coinciding with, back and to the left? 

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Ron B.--

Well...I think that may be the case. 

Of course, I see the violent lurch of JFK back to the left also (in the Z film).  And, many people assert confidently that the throat wound to JFK was from the front, and was in fact an entry wound. 

Pat Speer look at the evidence long and hard, and as I recall was open to the Grassy Knoll gunfire as a diversion.  

But, of course, a diversion is still a conspiracy, and in fact suggests intelligent planning, rather than just setting up two guns and shooting. 

My guess is the cue was "when the limo gets near the Stemmons Freeway sign, we all commence firing. The diversionary fire will increase the odds of the perps escaping." 

 

 

 

 

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Much easier to put a small explosive on a fence-post in advance than it is to shoot someone from behind that fence and get away before that crowd reaches you.

"The head shot came from the grassy knoll" shouldn't be dogma, IMO. Primarily because at that curve of the street, the fence was more to the side of JFK than in front of him.

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