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THE BAD BOYS OF OAK CLIFF -- PART I


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2 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Tippit and Mentzel were using telephones that

day besides the DPD radio. Oswald was an

FBI informant and had spoken with the

FBI at least two or three times in November

1963 before the assassination, probably

keeping them informed about the plot he

had infiltrated without knowing he was being set up as the patsy. The DPD also was aware of Oswald and his whereabouts, and,

as you know, a police car showed up outside

his Oak Cliff rooming house about 1 p.m. and honked its horn. Marie Tippit told

Edgar Lee Tippit what Mentzel told her about

the hunt for Oswald he and J. D. were ordered by the DPD to make

shortly after the assassination, by at least 12:45 (Oswald was not officially

identified until about 2:10 p.m. at the downtown police station).

I recommend you read my 2013 book INTO THE NIGHTMARE,

which goes into all of this in detail.

We know that Tippit used a pay phone that day. Do you think that some police detectives may have been communicating through the Communications Bunker under the Fairgrounds? 
Gil - I’ve really appreciated your recent series of posts. I do think you should read McBride’s book. His research was groundbreaking. The issue of what Tippit was up to in the 35 minutes or so between the assassination and his death, and for that matter before Dealey Plaza McBride covers in depth. Whether his movements into Oak Cliff were normal police operations or something else is crucially important. 

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An FBI report of June 15, 1964, has this to say about Mentzel's use of a

public telephone: "Officer MENTZEL stated at approximately 12:30 P.M. he stopped

for lunch at Luby's Cafeteria, 430 West Jefferson, Oak Ciff. He advised he tried

on several occasions to call the station by telephone, but did not get through to the

operator until about 1:00 P.M., at which time he was told the President had just

been shot. He stated he left the remainder of his lunch and went into service

by car radio . . ." Of course, the idea of a Dallas police officer hanging around a public cafeteria for half an hour while

the news of the president being shot would have been circulating there is a transparently absurd cover story.

Edited by Joseph McBride
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9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

We know that Tippit used a pay phone that day. Do you think that some police detectives may have been communicating through the Communications Bunker under the Fairgrounds? 
Gil - I’ve really appreciated your recent series of posts. I do think you should read McBride’s book. His research was groundbreaking. The issue of what Tippit was up to in the 35 minutes or so between the assassination and his death, and for that matter before Dealey Plaza McBride covers in depth. Whether his movements into Oak Cliff were normal police operations or something else is crucially important. 

All I'm saying that as a former police officer looking at the EVIDENCE ( the transcripts and the audio ) I didn't see anything sinister. I didn't say it was impossible, I said I didn't SEE anything. And from EXPERIENCE I find it hard to believe that at a time when most of the units were tied up downtown and the city needed every available unit to cover the rest of the city, they would take out of service ( because that's what it would take if they were hunting someone, believe me I've done that ) not one cruiser but TWO cruisers on a hunting expedition.

And the dispatchers would have had to have been ordered not to give either car any calls.

For me knowing how police departments work, that's quite a stretch. Not impossible, just hard to believe.

Good God, everytime I express an opinion, someone gets their nose out of joint and all hell breaks loose.

So let me go the full gamut:

I also don't believe Bill Greer shot JFK.

I'm sure Bill Cooper is rolling over in his grave.

There. I said it.

Edited by Gil Jesus
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4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

All I'm saying that as a former police officer looking at the EVIDENCE ( the transcripts and the audio ) I didn't see anything sinister. I didn't say it was impossible, I said I didn't SEE anything.

 

Gil,

And just because someone might have been an informant of the FBI, doesn't necessarily mean that that information would be shared with the local police department.

Roy Westphal was a member of The Dallas Police Department's Special Service Bureau.

He told Larry Sneed in the book, No More Silence:

No More Silence

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+%22+Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas%20%22%20Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false

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Steve Thomas

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9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

And just because someone might have been an informant of the FBI, doesn't necessarily mean that that information would be shared with the local police department.

Roy Westphal was a member of The Dallas Police Department's Special Service Bureau.

He told Larry Sneed in the book, No More Silence:

No More Silence

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+%22+Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas%20%22%20Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false

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Steve Thomas

Yes, that's a good point, Steve. And if Hoover didn't like the Chief or had a problem with the department, they got nothing. Remember how he refused DPD officers to the FBI academy after Curry made public they knew about Oswald but never told the DPD ? He was very vindictive.

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15 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

All I'm saying that as a former police officer looking at the EVIDENCE ( the transcripts and the audio ) I didn't see anything sinister. I didn't say it was impossible, I said I didn't SEE anything. And from EXPERIENCE I find it hard to believe that at a time when most of the units were tied up downtown and the city needed every available unit to cover the rest of the city, they would take out of service ( because that's what it would take if they were hunting someone, believe me I've done that ) not one cruiser but TWO cruisers on a hunting expedition.

And the dispatchers would have had to have been ordered not to give either car any calls.

For me knowing how police departments work, that's quite a stretch. Not impossible, just hard to believe.

Good God, everytime I express an opinion, someone gets their nose out of joint and all hell breaks loose.

So let me go the full gamut:

I also don't believe Bill Greer shot JFK.

I'm sure Bill Cooper is rolling over in his grave.

There. I said it.

Gil - I’m asking you to take a look at McBride’s research. I’m not chewing you out for having an opinion. 

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On 8/30/2021 at 7:42 PM, Joseph McBride said:

Gil, I generally admire your work, but this statement

is just absurd and caused me to have to re-read it

more than once to realize you actually wrote it: "Having spent some time as a police officer myself, I understand how it all works. I find nothing suspicious or sinister about the Dallas Police dispatching J.D. Tippit to Oak Cliff. They just wanted coverage in a high crime area while the officer assigned to that area was at lunch."

The officer who allegedly went to lunch was William Mentzel, but in fact he and Tippit

were dispatched by the DPD before 12:45 p.m. to hunt down Oswald. Mentzel's

story about lunch is ridiculous on its face and obviously a cover story. Mentzel became

involved in an auto accident nearby and said he regretted Tippit got hit instead.

Nothing suspicious or sinister in any of this? The time frame and the order to hunt down

Oswald in Oak Cliff well before the DPD officially knew who he was (they actually had 

been surveilling him for quite some time, and he was an FBI informant)

show that Tippit and Mentzel and the DPD itself were involved in the conspiracy

to pin the JFK assassination on Oswald (if not more).

Joseph McBride, I don't admire your work.

I find your findings to be unsound, weak, and without merit. 

You lack the intellectual curiosity to investigate any of the circumstances and readily buy into a sham.

Good for you not educating yourself on DALLAS POLICE IN 1963.

But please explain away how no one in the DPD did anything to incriminate Lee. Apologists need apply, as you can not knowingly support your tenet.

Mentzel is your boy, not ours Mr. Mc Bride. 

Or are you admitting you are wrong about the DPD officers. (In general)

Cheers!

Ed

Oh BTW nothing in your post negated anything in Gil's post.

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Dallas Police were in control of all three crime scenes: the Grassy Knoll area, the Texas School Book Depository and the Tippit's murder scene. Dallas Police were able to supervise all three scenes (not necessarily act as killers) and manipulate evidence early on to mount all guilt on Lee Oswald.

James Hosty mentioned in his book "Assignment Oswald" calling Sgt. H.M. Hart from the intelligence unit, naming him his counterpart in the Dallas Police,  after 1:25 PM to compare their lists of right-wingers in Dallas area who were the initial suspects (per Edgar Hoover's initial assessment). Thus, there were contacts between James Hosty and Dallas Police prior to assassination. 

I also remember reading not very well documented bits of information about a Dallas police officer accompanying Hosty to Irving during his visits of Paine's house. Unfortunately, no hard data on such collaboration between Dallas Police and the FBI seem to exist.

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Good points, Gil. There are some similarities between your account of the Tippit incident and Greg Parker's:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2451-the-bad-boys-of-oak-cliff-part-i

I've always been puzzled by the need to incorporate the Tippit murder (or, for example, the Richard Nagell and Rose Cherami stories) into some grand unified theory of the JFK assassination. What people should be doing is eliminating as much of the poorly supported or outlying stuff as possible, rather than trying to incorporate as much of it as possible.

I'm sure we all recognise the flimsiness of the witness and ballistics evidence against Oswald as the killer of Tippit. We know that the killing was pinned on Oswald after the event. But all of that doesn't mean that the Tippit killing had to be part of a finely worked-out pre-assassination plot to incriminate Oswald.

A Hollywood scriptwriter might want to take the Tippit murder and make it part of the main JFK assassination narrative by, say, having Tippit chase Oswald around Dallas after having shot Kennedy from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. It would make for a nicely tied-together movie plot, but it wouldn't make for a credible interpretation of the assassination.

On a side note, it's good to find a thread on this forum that's actually about the JFK assassination, rather than 9/11, vaccinations, Trump, or those little green men that live among us.

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3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Good points, Gil. There are some similarities between your account of the Tippit incident and Greg Parker's:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2451-the-bad-boys-of-oak-cliff-part-i

I've always been puzzled by the need to incorporate the Tippit murder (or, for example, the Richard Nagell and Rose Cherami stories) into some grand unified theory of the JFK assassination. What people should be doing is eliminating as much of the poorly supported or outlying stuff as possible, rather than trying to incorporate as much of it as possible.

I'm sure we all recognise the flimsiness of the witness and ballistics evidence against Oswald as the killer of Tippit. We know that the killing was pinned on Oswald after the event. But all of that doesn't mean that the Tippit killing had to be part of a finely worked-out pre-assassination plot to incriminate Oswald.

A Hollywood scriptwriter might want to take the Tippit murder and make it part of the main JFK assassination narrative by, say, having Tippit chase Oswald around Dallas after having shot Kennedy from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. It would make for a nicely tied-together movie plot, but it wouldn't make for a credible interpretation of the assassination.

On a side note, it's good to find a thread on this forum that's actually about the JFK assassination, rather than 9/11, vaccinations, Trump, or those little green men that live among us.

I recently joined Greg Parker's forum and I like their no BS approach to it all. If you post something that's not right, they're not bashful in correcting you. Not harshly, but they're direct in their approach. I learned there that if you're going to quote Armstrong, you better not use anything he uses without a source. And if he uses a source, you better double check it. That's what I learned there in one post. LOL. And don't get me wrong, I like Armstrong. I've had conversations with him, he seems like a nice guy.

But from now on, I'm going to double-check his work before I cite it.

You're right about the movie plot, great story. But what does the evidence say ? I know about those stories that somebody-told-somebody-told-somebody they're all over the place and a dime a dozen. You can put together a scenario that fits any theory just by using circumstantial evidence. So a cruiser pulled up in front of his rooming house and sounded the horn. And then drove away.

I ask you, if you were a cop would you do that if you were hunting for someone ? If you were deer hunting, would you stand out in the middle of an open field or would you take cover and wait ? I was a cop and I'd NEVER do something like that. Because if you're hunting, you want the element of surprise on YOUR side. There were people in that house. Why would you risk creating a hostage situation (assuming he killed the President and was in the act of fleeing and was armed) when you could just wait and grab him after he left the house ? And whose cruiser was it ? Who was in it ?

Nobody knows.

You're right Jeremy, great movie plot, great story. Maybe a good one for Unsolved Mysteries.

But unless someone can tell me which cruiser it was that stopped in front of 1026 North Beckley at 1pm on November 22, 1963 and the names of the two officers who were in that cruiser, it's just another story that can't be verified. And without verification, in my book, it's certainly interesting but not evidence.

My research is not about chasing ghosts. I'm not in it for the fame or the money. I've never appeared on TV, I've done one radio interview in last 50 years. I've never written a book or profited in any way from this tragedy.

For me, it's all about justice. It's about proving that the HSCA's assessment that the FBI's investigation into the Kennedy assassination was "seriously flawed", that the Dallas Police framed Oswald for two murders he did not commit and that the FBI and the Warren Commission covered up that framing by rubber-stamping the DPD case.

Who did it ? I'll leave that for future generations to debate.

All I can tell you is that Oswald didn't.

I don't believe that Oswald killed Tippit. I don't believe that Tippit's murder had anything to do with the assassination at all. In fact, nearly all of the witnesses to the Tippit murder gave NO DESCRIPTION of the killer in their original affidavits. Most described him as a young man, a white man or a young white man. That's it.

I'll cover all of that in Part 2. When I'm finished, I'll post it on my website. Anything I post on the website will come to the forums first, so you folks will get first dibs.

Edited by Gil Jesus
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9 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

Joseph McBride, I don't admire your work.

I find your findings to be unsound, weak, and without merit. 

You lack the intellectual curiosity to investigate any of the circumstances and readily buy into a sham.

Good for you not educating yourself on DALLAS POLICE IN 1963.

But please explain away how no one in the DPD did anything to incriminate Lee. Apologists need apply, as you can not knowingly support your tenet.

Mentzel is your boy, not ours Mr. Mc Bride. 

Or are you admitting you are wrong about the DPD officers. (In general)

Cheers!

Ed

Oh BTW nothing in your post negated anything in Gil's post.

awwww, Greg's shoeshine specialist is back... tough selling' pineapple's Eddy? Oh, and Gil is a big boy... Your PR skills have been found wanting...

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On 9/2/2021 at 12:31 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Oh that’s really special Ed. 

Paul, your repeated attempts at pushing Nightmare on Gil is more than special 

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On 8/31/2021 at 4:39 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

It has always intrigued me that the two times Oswald went "missing" in his life, he wound up resurfacing in Oak Cliff.

The first was the missing two weeks between October 19-November 3, 1962, and the second time between September 25-October 3, 1963,

in the 1963 incident, Ruth Paine allegedly dropped Oswald off in downtown Dallas on October 7th to look for a job and a place to live, He winds up on foot at Mary Bledsoe's place on Marsalis with clothes on hangers hanging on his back.

Did he go looking for a job carrying his clothes?

Why Oak Cliff?

How did he know so much about the neighborhood  layout?

Steve Thomas

 

 

Great questions Steve,

Beckley Bunch thread material!

Lee disappeared as no one admits he took the Beckley bus, of course if the investigation doesn't look where he is then he is 'disappeared' alright,,  disappeared right to where the bus drops off, Jefferson Blvd and Texas Theater. With an inconsistent witness/informant in Brewer right there.

 

As for walking about with all his belongings looking for a room across Oak Cliff it strains credulity.

Especially when he supposedly has rooming house telephone numbers he can call...but that never happened.

You'd have to imagine anyone who knows Oak Cliff would have better sense of rooming establishments 

Cheers,

Ed

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36 minutes ago, Ed LeDoux said:

You'd have to imagine anyone who knows Oak Cliff would have better sense of rooming establishments 

Cheers,

Ed

Ed,

In his WC testimony,

WC testimony of George Bouhe March 23, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

George Bouhe told the Warren Commission that back in 1962, he thought that Oswald had told him that he (Oswald) had moved into the Carlton boarding house.

"Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the YMCA?
Mr. BOUHE - At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, "Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong."

Once upon a time, someone, (and I'm sorry I can't remember who) sent me a clipping from the Want Ad section from one of the Dallas newspapers that showed an room for rent advertisement from Mary Bledsoe's house on Marsalis directly above an ad from the Carlton Boarding House.

I've kicked myself because I didn't keep a copy of that Want Ad page.

I've wondered if Oswald got the idea to look for places to rent in the Want Ad section of the paper, or if Geprge Bouhe got the idea from there to give to the Warren Commission.

Steve Thomas

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