Discussion topic: Oswald at Texas Theater

[David Andrews]

Does Oswald's presence at the Texas Theater indicate his foreknowledge of the plot?

[Sean Coleman]

Good thought provoking question. I don’t think it indicates foreknowledge of the ‘main event’ plot, but definitely involvement of the plot LHO thought he was part of, the theatre being the end play of his (falsely informed) participation and his (also falsely informed) removal from the scene.

…or did he just enjoy war films

[Ron Bulman]

I'd agree with Sean.  When Oswald heard JFK had actually been shot in front of the TSBD he knew he'd been lied to, and, that he would be a suspect.  JMO.  He also knew he had to get out of town.  He didn't have a car, he'd be seen on a bus, not enough cash for a plane ticket.  His last best hope was a pre arranged backstop with someone he thought might be there.

Then again I think he was set up, led there.  It was a planned backstop by a certain organization in case he wasn't killed or captured at the TSBD.  Remember there were Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater.  The real one was already there when the other one led the police there.  JMO again, from reading over the years.

[Benjamin Cole]

If we assume that LHO was a patsy and knew it, then the last place he would go would be to a pre-arranged rendezvous with the people who just made him a patsy. He might well determine that would be a lethal meeting. 

My guess is LHO figured out he was the patsy rather quickly, and vamoosed by the means available, and then got his gun. He knew he could not stay at home, or on city streets. A movie theatre, darkened, might the best of bad options. 

IMHO, LHO's leaving the TBSD and getting a gun have always signalled either guilt or involvement in the JFKA. If we rule out guilt, that means LHO was the patsy, but figured it out quickly on the basis of a few gunshots and sirens. 

To me, that suggests LHO was involved in some event that was supposed to happen, such as a false-flag but unsuccessful JFKA. 

But I am re-reading Larry Hancock's Tipping Point for pointers.  The connection between LHO and a small assassination team imported into Dallas from Miami, on a very compartmentalized basis, is difficult to ascertain.  

 

 

 

 

[Ian Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If we assume that LHO was a patsy and knew it, then the last place he would go would be to a pre-arranged rendezvous with the people who just made him a patsy. He might well determine that would be a lethal meeting. 

My guess is LHO figured out he was the patsy rather quickly, and vamoosed by the means available, and then got his gun. He knew he could not stay at home, or on city streets. A movie theatre, darkened, might the best of bad options. 

IMHO, LHO's leaving the TBSD and getting a gun have always signalled either guilt or involvement in the JFKA. If we rule out guilt, that means LHO was the patsy, but figured it out quickly on the basis of a few gunshots and sirens. 

To me, that suggests LHO was involved in some event that was supposed to happen, such as a false-flag but unsuccessful JFKA. 

But I am re-reading Larry Hancock's Tipping Point for pointers.  The connection between LHO and a small assassination team imported into Dallas from Miami, on a very compartmentalized basis, is difficult to ascertain.  

 

 

 

 

Does the fact that he announced to the world that he was a "patsy" also suggest that he was involved in, or had some knowledge of, a plot?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Ian Lloyd
Modify

[Sean Coleman]

Yes, but he didn’t know he was the patsy until he announced it in the corridor downtown, when he realised the s##t was about to hit his fan…..

[Paul Brancato]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If we assume that LHO was a patsy and knew it, then the last place he would go would be to a pre-arranged rendezvous with the people who just made him a patsy. He might well determine that would be a lethal meeting. 

My guess is LHO figured out he was the patsy rather quickly, and vamoosed by the means available, and then got his gun. He knew he could not stay at home, or on city streets. A movie theatre, darkened, might the best of bad options. 

IMHO, LHO's leaving the TBSD and getting a gun have always signalled either guilt or involvement in the JFKA. If we rule out guilt, that means LHO was the patsy, but figured it out quickly on the basis of a few gunshots and sirens. 

To me, that suggests LHO was involved in some event that was supposed to happen, such as a false-flag but unsuccessful JFKA. 

But I am re-reading Larry Hancock's Tipping Point for pointers.  The connection between LHO and a small assassination team imported into Dallas from Miami, on a very compartmentalized basis, is difficult to ascertain.  

 

 

 

 

Pardon my poor memory, but did he have any money on him? I agree that it seems unlikely he would show up at a preplanned rendezvous if he was trying to vamoose, unless he was also guilty, not just a patsy. Since I don’t think he was guilty, and don’t buy the whole revolver/Tippit story I’m not so sure it wasn’t just an afternoon at the movies. Are we all sure he had a gun on him when he was arrested? 

[George Govus]

Quote

Officer M. N. McDonald had come in the rear door and was standing at the side of the movie screen. In an article written the day after the assassination for the Associated Press, McDonald recalled:

Quote

I noticed about 10 to 15 people sitting in the theater [which seated 900] and they were spread out good. A man sitting near the front, and I still don't know who it was, tipped me the man I wanted was sitting in the third row from the rear of the ground floor and not in the balcony [as reported to the police dispatcher].

The above from Crossfire by Jim Marrs ("Aftermath," pg 340-341 in the revised 2013 edition). Marrs interviewed Christian radio host Jack Davis, who on the day of the assassination went to the Texas Theater and got seated in time to watch the opening credits of the 1 pm show.

Quote

He said he was somewhat startled by a man who squeezed past him and sat down in the seat next to him. He found it odd that this man would choose the seat next to him in a 900-seat theater with fewer than twenty patrons in it. Davis said the man didn't say a word but quickly got up and moved across the aisle and took a seat next to another person. Then, shortly, the man got up and walked into the theater's lobby. A few minutes later, Davis, whose attention had returned to the movie, vaguely remembered seeing the same man enter the center section of the theater from the far side.

Marrs quoted Davis further. The house lights went up some twenty minutes later. Davis went to the lobby to learn why, and saw policemen running in the front door.

Quote

A few minutes later the police brought out this same man who had sat down next to me.

 

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Pardon my poor memory, but did he have any money on him? I agree that it seems unlikely he would show up at a preplanned rendezvous if he was trying to vamoose, unless he was also guilty, not just a patsy. Since I don’t think he was guilty, and don’t buy the whole revolver/Tippit story I’m not so sure it wasn’t just an afternoon at the movies. Are we all sure he had a gun on him when he was arrested? 

He had $13 and 70-some cents on him, if you only count the one wallet, har-de-har-har.

I may be wrong, but the only recorded admission by LHO that he was carrying a gun comes from Will Fritz's scribbled interrogation notes.  Fritz asked why he was carrying a gun in the theater, and Oswald allegedly answered (paraphrase) "Oh, you know how boys are with guns - take 'em everywhere."  (The actual quote may be by way of Jim Leavelle.) The rest is the testimony of the arresting officers.  Correct me, if needed.

I'll add more to this discussion as I see how it goes.

Edited September 20, 2021 by David Andrews

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Pardon my poor memory, but did he have any money on him? I agree that it seems unlikely he would show up at a preplanned rendezvous if he was trying to vamoose, unless he was also guilty, not just a patsy. Since I don’t think he was guilty, and don’t buy the whole revolver/Tippit story I’m not so sure it wasn’t just an afternoon at the movies. Are we all sure he had a gun on him when he was arrested? 

Hi Paul:

Maybe the "LHO was armed" story was fabricated, but there seems to have been a lot of witnesses in the Texas Theater.  LHO appears to have acknowledged he was armed in the (unrecorded) interviews with the DPD. 

We do have a conflict in much the rehashing of the LHO stories.

1. If LHP was totally innocent on Nov. 22, not a party to anything, just doing his job that day (although an erstwhile intel asset) then why would he rendezvous with anybody post-JFKA? There would be nobody to rendezvous with. 

2. OK, if LHO was a party to the real assassination, maybe somebody would be at the Texas Theater to take him offshore or to a safehouse. But that strikes me as a weak plan. A simple car leaving Dealey Plaza would work a lot better. There were no road-blocks out of Dallas.

3. If (as I suspect) LHO believed he was part of a false-flag op to unsuccessfully assassinate the President, then likely he would not meet anyone at the Texas Theater, correctly deducing he had just been made the patsy in a real assassination by his colleagues.  LHO appears to have known that he had been made the patsy almost immediately, which is why he went home, had the taxi drop him a few blocks from his room, and then got his revolver. 

LHO's best option at that point, but still very bad option, would be to hide in the theater until dark outside. LHO's frame of mind was fried at that point, and so he snuck into the theater, rather than just paying. 

My guess is that if the DPD was "in on the JFKA" they could have shot LHO dead in the theater.  

That's my story I am sticking with it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

He had $13 and 70-some cents on him, if you only count the one wallet, har-de-har-har.

I may be wrong, but the only recorded admission by LHO that he was carrying a gun comes from Will Fritz's scribbled interrogation notes.  Fritz asked why he was carrying a gun in the theater, and Oswald allegedly answered (paraphrase) "Oh, you know how boys are with guns - take 'em everywhere."  (The actual quote may be by way of Jim Leavelle.) The rest is the testimony of the arresting officers.  Correct me, if needed.

I'll add more to this discussion as I see how it goes.

I don’t see any reason to trust Fritz’s notes. It’s always seemed absurd that there are no recordings or film of the interrogation. It’s so unlikely to be true. So why would anyone believe anything they say about it? I don’t at all doubt that at least a few DPD were in on the frame, and prepared. So again, their mutual buttressing of the arrest story isn’t convincing. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Paul Brancato

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t see any reason to trust Fritz’s notes. It’s always seemed absurd that there are no recordings or film of the interrogation. It’s so unlikely to be true. So why would anyone believe anything they say about it? I don’t at all doubt that at least a few DPD were in on the frame, and prepared. So again, their mutual buttressing of the arrest story isn’t convincing. 

Weren't Fritz's notes composed after the fact, a day or two.  Somewhere I think I read based on FBI agent Bookout's notes? 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t see any reason to trust Fritz’s notes. It’s always seemed absurd that there are no recordings or film of the interrogation. It’s so unlikely to be true. So why would anyone believe anything they say about it? I don’t at all doubt that at least a few DPD were in on the frame, and prepared. So again, their mutual buttressing of the arrest story isn’t convincing. 

Paul-

Certainly, distrust of official narratives in the JFKA is warranted.  I cannot prove my views.

But I am cautious about JFKA counter-narratives that require multiplying numbers of complicit actors, such as (in the immediate example), the officers in the Texas Theater arrest. OK, maybe the three or four officers involved in the arrest, and possibly a few theater patrons, lied and kept quiet over the years.  

Then the DPD fabricated his statement he had a pistol, requiring an additional set of XXXXX. Others participated in planting a gun on him. 

At some point, I sense credulity is stretched. The official narrative, regarding LHO arming himself, seems likely true. 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

I think LHO's handler (DAP(?)) told him (LHO) to go to the Texas Theatre and right after that, DAP let Earle Cabell (now we know he worked with the CIA ) know he could have the Dallas police pick up the assassin (LHO) in the Texas Theatre.  Earle then told this to the Dallas Police chief who had his police pick up the assassin (LHO)  at the Texas Theatre.    No proof - just what I think happened. Alot of these communications would have happened by phone. Nothing written. DAP made it happen, in my opinion. And, yes, I believe LHO was handled by the CIA at this time (see John Newman' s book "Oswald and the CIA" for backround on this subject).

[Chuck Schwartz]

This is from a Dick Russell review of the aforemention book. The review is dtd. 8/1/96.."Noting the possibility of a CIA “renegade faction” manipulating Oswald, Newman concludes: “We can finally say with some authority that the CIA was spinning a web of deception about Oswald weeks before the President’s murder,” based upon an exhaustive survey of now-visible files that were denied to previous official investigations."