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If Roger Craig was right…..


Sean Coleman

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On 11/13/2021 at 7:01 PM, David Andrews said:

If Roger Craig was wrong – I don’t want to be right

If being right means being lone-nutter,

I’d rather give up civil rights

The Warren Commission didn’t speak his name,

It’s a doggone disgrace!

They told him he didn’t see what he saw,

Then they rubbed it in his face

Are you wrong to hunger for justice for John-John's dad?

Am I wrong just to try to hold on to the best Prez we ever had?

If Roger Craig was wrong, I don’t want to be right –

I don’t wanna be right – if it means bein’ a patsy!

I don’t wanna be right – If it means bullets at night...

 

 

Damn you David.  You've got in my head.  And it won't go away.  If Roger Craig was wrong, I don't want to be right . . . 

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15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Damn you David.  You've got in my head.  And it won't go away.  If Roger Craig was wrong, I don't want to be right . . . 

Me, too.  Blame it on the thread title.

That stuttering organ riff, though...

Damn You, David is the title of my posthumous biopic.  The phrase has recurred throughout my history.

Edited by David Andrews
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15 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Me, too.  Blame it on the thread title.

That stuttering organ riff, though...

Damn You, David is the title of my posthumous biopic.  The phrase has recurred throughout my history.

You will be remembered for a while if I outlive you.  If Roger Craig was wrong, I don't wanna be right. . .

Edited by Ron Bulman
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  • 4 months later...

@Denny Zartman Roger Craig was not the only one who saw the man running down and getting into the Rambler. I don't have any names at this particular time but over the years I do recall reading accounts of at least one witness and maybe at least two who talked about it. One might have been Richard Randalph Carr. And the (or at least A) Rambler is seen in several photos I do believe although none depict a guy (Oswald) getting in. What was the vehicle that Tilson was following out of the plaza? Was it a Rambler or was it a different vehicle? I can't remember. 

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16 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

@Denny Zartman Roger Craig was not the only one who saw the man running down and getting into the Rambler. I don't have any names at this particular time but over the years I do recall reading accounts of at least one witness and maybe at least two who talked about it. One might have been Richard Randalph Carr. And the (or at least A) Rambler is seen in several photos I do believe although none depict a guy (Oswald) getting in. What was the vehicle that Tilson was following out of the plaza? Was it a Rambler or was it a different vehicle? I can't remember. 

Jamey, No it wasn't a Rambler.  Tilson saw a guy who was the spitting image of Jack Ruby come down the grassy slope and enter a black car west of the Triple Underpass on the Elm St side, he threw something in the back seat and hurriedly got in the car and drove off.  Tilson got the reg. number and reported the details, but as per, nothing was followed up.  Description similar to Julia Mercer's.

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14 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

@Denny Zartman Roger Craig was not the only one who saw the man running down and getting into the Rambler. I don't have any names at this particular time but over the years I do recall reading accounts of at least one witness and maybe at least two who talked about it.

Jamey,

Dave Reitzes Feb 26, 2012, 8:07:53 PM

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/4f9b8d5KcTk

- QUOTE -

"There are two other witnesses who told the FBI about it almost
immediately:

 http://http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler_witness.html
Then there's Richard Randolph Carr, who told the FBI about it a few months later:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Carr Richard Randolph/Item 02.pdf
Carr's testimony is often dismissed because by the time he came forward,
Roger Craig's claim had received a fair amount of publicity and because
his story become more elaborate by the time he testified at the Clay Shaw trial.

htmlhttp://www.jfk-online.com/carrshaw.html
Researcher Duke Lane has posted some commentary about him:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/13705-richard-randolph-carr/


Michael Kurtz claims to have interviewed another corroborating witness in
1974, one Helen (Mrs. James) Forrest. Kurtz says she told him that she saw
a man who looked exactly like Oswald run from the rear of the TSBD and get
in the Rambler: "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." (Michael
L. Kurtz, CRIME OF THE CENTURY [Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press,
1993], p. 132.)

 

I have no idea whether Mrs. Forrest's story is credible, or if she was
even in Dealey Plaza."

-ENDQUOTE -

Steve Thomas

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Thanks @Steve Thomas I knew I had heard of several accounts in the past! Thanks for taking the time to put in the research! I haven't had a chance the past few days to look it up and the internet is somewhat controlled these days. You used to could search for the JFK assassination and come up with all kinds of good websites and info but now that all gets buried so far under the lone-nut websites and such that it's hard to find anything. Luckily I still have books but sometimes can't remember exactly where I might have read some stuff, especially in a large volume like Harvey And Lee. And some people cringe at the mention of H&L, but it is thoroughly researched and contains a wealth of knowledge and info on the assassination! I've actually heard people say that they often turn to that research even if they don't believe the H&L hypothesis. 

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8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Michael Kurtz claims to have interviewed another corroborating witness in
1974, one Helen (Mrs. James) Forrest. Kurtz says she told him that she saw
a man who looked exactly like Oswald run from the rear of the TSBD and get
in the Rambler: "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." (Michael
L. Kurtz, CRIME OF THE CENTURY [Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press,
1993], p. 132.)

Steve Thomas

Steve, I noticed this publication is missing from my collection.  Kurtz being a History prof. attracted me to purchase.  Your quote of the book is 1993, I notice that there is a 3rd edition in 2013.  How do you rate 'Crime of the Century'?

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14 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

I interviewed Tilson, who did not seem to me to be a credible witness.

His stories did not check out.

I saw Tilson on the Gerry Spence / Bugliosi Lee Harvey Oswald trial video doc.

Wasn't Tilson's daughter with him during his supposed Ruby, black car chase event?

If so, I wonder whether she may have backed up her father's story in it's main details?

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Tilson also reportedly claimed later on that he, and his daughter again, saw 3 men dressed in suits with Ruby practicing at a firing range 5-7 days before the assassination.

Then again this story has Urdy stealing rifles from West Texas ranches for Ruby.  And, tosh Plumlee . . .

Testimony of Bob Vernon (jfk-assassination.net)

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22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jamey,

Dave Reitzes Feb 26, 2012, 8:07:53 PM

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/4f9b8d5KcTk

- QUOTE -

"There are two other witnesses who told the FBI about it almost
immediately:

 http://http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler_witness.html
Then there's Richard Randolph Carr, who told the FBI about it a few months later:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Carr Richard Randolph/Item 02.pdf
Carr's testimony is often dismissed because by the time he came forward,
Roger Craig's claim had received a fair amount of publicity and because
his story become more elaborate by the time he testified at the Clay Shaw trial.

htmlhttp://www.jfk-online.com/carrshaw.html
Researcher Duke Lane has posted some commentary about him:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/13705-richard-randolph-carr/


Michael Kurtz claims to have interviewed another corroborating witness in
1974, one Helen (Mrs. James) Forrest. Kurtz says she told him that she saw
a man who looked exactly like Oswald run from the rear of the TSBD and get
in the Rambler: "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." (Michael
L. Kurtz, CRIME OF THE CENTURY [Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press,
1993], p. 132.)

 

I have no idea whether Mrs. Forrest's story is credible, or if she was
even in Dealey Plaza."

-ENDQUOTE -

Steve Thomas

Kurtz made up his witnesses. I wrote about this roughly a decade ago and he never attempted to defend himself. So, you may ask, why should he explain himself to you? Well, he's an historian. He has an understanding of the historical record. And he damn sure knows that a writer who cites numerous interviews with people who were already dead at the supposed time of these interviews better explain himself, or risk having his work thrown in the trash bin. 

While his analyses of the case may have some merit, you can pretty much throw everything he ever said regarding his own experience with the case, such as seeing Ferrie or Shaw with Oswald or talking to the CIA or talking to doctors who told him the whole thing was a cover-up, in the trash. 

 

Edited by Pat Speer
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