Documents released 12/15/21

[Ron Bulman]

I've not read Harvey and Lee (John Armstrong) but David Joseph is pretty convincing that Lee Harvey Oswald did not go to Mexico City.  The bus ride was bs, among other piles.  Wear your boots when going here.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

If Nagell met Oswald in MC, it would've been on a different trip, as Nagell was already incarcerated for the bank incident during Oswald's assumed trip to MC from 9/26-10/2.

If Oswald wasn't in MC when he is said to have been, we need info on where he was instead, and why.

Matt A.--

Good point. I will have to check again on Nagell and what dates he said he met LHO in Mexico City. 

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Ron says it well, based on David's work including Jeff Morley its pretty clear that the CIA was hiding things about Mexico City even internally and certainly from the FBI as well.  The FBI was led down a path via CIA connections with the Mexican Federal Police and Hoover learned that only after the fact  but was forced to go along with that as with well as covering up many other leads which pointed towards a conspiracy - including the autopsy reports from his own agents.  The picture of Mexico City and of Oswald in Mexico is truly a swamp, revealing much about the cover up and probably little about the conspiracy, much less the attack in Dallas.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

  The picture of Mexico City and of Oswald in Mexico is truly a swamp, revealing much about the cover up and probably little about the conspiracy, much less the attack in Dallas.

Larry,

I've been trying to figure out why the CIA would use an impostor to pose as a man whom the Russians considered (as far back as his foray into Russia circa 1959-60), to be mentally unstable. Surely the Cubans would have asked the Russians if they knew anything about this guy.

Perhaps that was the plan. If they could then, later on, reveal that the Russians and the Cubans were meeting with a nut job, they could then cast aspersions. Maybe Oswald was being set up as a patsy even then.

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Steve,  my view is that the imposter was at the Cuban consulate - it may well have been Oswald himself at the Russian embassy.  I know some folks won't like that view as they don't want Oswald in Mexico at all.  I'm open to the fact that he was taken to Mexico or at least the border by others and that what we see going on in Mexico City is a mix.  What I'm absolutely convinced about is that the WC story and timeline for his activities related to Mexico is bogus, based on the FBI investigation which was both misled by CIA tampering in MC via the their Mexican political and police connections as well as by the marching orders the FBI was given to eliminate leads pointing towards Oswald and others ie. conspiracy.  Of course those orders came a bit later than the telephone call with Hoover talking about an imposter and others - he had no idea at that point that the CIA was floundering around already trying to cover their connections to Oswald.

[Dennis Berube]

This "document dump" looks like maybe Biden was trying to ward off Larry's lawsuit with this rather skimpy effort.

Some of the MSM coverage is just pure crap for the masses. Plus they get more anti-Russian sentiment out of it.

https://www.newsweek.com/new-documents-jfk-assassination-shed-light-lee-harvey-oswalds-ties-cuba-russia-1659902

Edited December 20, 2021 by Dennis Berube

[Benjamin Cole]

20 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

If Nagell met Oswald in MC, it would've been on a different trip, as Nagell was already incarcerated for the bank incident during Oswald's assumed trip to MC from 9/26-10/2.

If Oswald wasn't in MC when he is said to have been, we need info on where he was instead, and why.

Matt A.-

In checking the record, I made an error.

Nagell did not say he met LHO in Mexico City, only that he was slated to assassinate LHO in Mexico City, as Nagell was on a mission for the Russians. 

So, Kostikov is on record and filmed, along with two colleagues, that he met LHO in Mexico City. 

Kostikov can be telling the truth, and LHO can also have been impersonated in Mexico City. 

On balance, I find Nagell a dubious fixture in the JFKA literature. BTW, Nagell says LHO shot at JFK, but was assisted by others. 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

12 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Ron says it well, based on David's work including Jeff Morley its pretty clear that the CIA was hiding things about Mexico City even internally and certainly from the FBI as well.  The FBI was led down a path via CIA connections with the Mexican Federal Police and Hoover learned that only after the fact  but was forced to go along with that as with well as covering up many other leads which pointed towards a conspiracy - including the autopsy reports from his own agents.  The picture of Mexico City and of Oswald in Mexico is truly a swamp, revealing much about the cover up and probably little about the conspiracy, much less the attack in Dallas.

Larry H.-

I had a stray thought yesterday while reading your excellent Wheaton Lead story at Mary Ferrell.

A lot of documentation has gotten into the record regarding the JMWave station in Miami, and Cuban exiles.  

See for example, from your excellent Wheaton Lead story: 

A separate CIA document, the debriefing of Felix Rodriquez prior to his separation from the CIA in 1976 (and a very unusual authorization for the public disclosure of his CIA service), records his own statement that in December 1960 he had volunteered to kill Fidel Castro, stating that it was the only solution to the Cuban problem. He also stated that he had been supplied with a special sniper weapon for missions into Cuba and that he and another CIA Cuban had made three missions into Cuba. [ xv ]

Rodriquez did not identify the CIA officer who had given them the assignments or state any details on the missions. In his own biography, Rodriquez provides more detail on the assassination plan, describing a German bolt action sniper rifle with a telescopic sight. The rifle itself was pre-sighted according to the specifics of the mission, based on the exact location in which Castro was to be attacked.

---30---

Why was this Rodriquez document released?

The thought occurs to me that the CIA does not let any documents, or biographies, out that it does not want out. After all, they have a monopoly on the knowledge of what is in their files. These are old paper files. Sure there are some clues, numbered folders or indexes, etc, but in the end, only the CIA really knows what is in the files. And, of course, a lot of information never got into the files to begin with. 

You have posited that the Mexico City trip is a bit of a wild goose chase, and probably not relevant to the JFKA itself. 

A larger question: Suppose the whole Cuban exile-CIA line is a ruse? Why would so much info be released regarding the Cuban-CIA situation?

John Newman seems to be investigating Army intel and European connections. He seems especially dubious about Antonio Veciana, who switched over to military intel from the CIA. 

Just a stray thought.  

The CIA-Cubanos had the means and motivations, in spades. But other groups did also. 

 

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Matt A.-

In checking the record, I made an error.

Nagell did not say he met LHO in Mexico City, only that he was slated to assassinate LHO in Mexico City, as Nagell was on a mission for the Russians. 

So, Kostikov is on record and filmed, along with two colleagues, that he met LHO in Mexico City. 

Kostikov can be telling the truth, and LHO can also have been impersonated in Mexico City. 

On balance, I find Nagell a dubious fixture in the JFKA literature. BTW, Nagell says LHO shot at JFK, but was assisted by others. 

 

 

 While only my opinion, I agree with all the MC scenarios you list here.

edit: and Nagell did actually say to the FBI that he had met Oswald in Mexico; a quote from that FBI doc is here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62412#relPageId=73

Whether he was slyly intimating what he actually knew about Oswald's MC trip, or trying to be literal and serious, nobody knows.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Matt Allison

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

 While only my opinion, I agree with all the MC scenarios you list here.

edit: and Nagell did actually say to the FBI that he had met Oswald in Mexico; a quote from that FBI doc is here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62412#relPageId=73

Whether he was slyly intimating what he actually knew about Oswald's MC trip, or trying to be literal and serious, nobody knows.

I stand corrected twice. Good work, Matt. 

Unfortunately, even if Nagall is 100% the real deal, almost nothing pertinent about him can be verified. For example, we only have his word he forewarned the FBI of the JFKA. 

The provenance of documents associated with Nagall is uncertain. 

So it goes...

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:56 AM, Steve Thomas said:

You can read the documents released by the National Archives om 12/15/21 here:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2021

Steve Thomas

Here is my favorite among the ones I checked, a 1964 report of a CIA chief in Cairo telling of a conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Drew Pearson, the famous columnist, telling of their meeting with Khrushchev in Moscow. 

"Chairman Khrushchev then joined the conversation, expressing sorrow at the assassination and also inquired about Mrs. Kennedy. Thereupon he asked, Mr. Pearson, 'What really happened?' Mr. Pearson said in effect that the whole affair had taken place just as had been reported in the newspapers and presumably by the Soviet Ambassador in Washington. Chairman Khrushchev was utterly incredulous and his attitude was characterized by Mrs. Pearson as being archetypical 'of every European I have ever talked to on this subject'. That is, that there was some kind of conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy and then murder the assassin with the Dallas Police Department being an accessory. Mrs. Pearson got the impression that Chairman Khrushchev had some dark thoughts about the American Right Wing being behind this conspiracy although Chairman Khrushchev did not articulate this in any clear fashion. Mrs. Pearson was a bit vague on this point in distinguishing between what Chairman Khrushchev said and what she thought he believed. 

"When Mr. Pearson said that we Americans are peculiar people, it understandable [sic] that we foreigners had difficulty comprehending this fantastic episode, but in fact Oswald was mad, had acted on his own, ditto Ruby, Chairman Khrushchev said flatly that he did not believe this. He said he did not believe that the American security services were this inept. Mr. Pearson again said he agreed this was hard to believe but the facts were as they appeared. Mrs. Khrushchev also expressed disbelief and reiterated her affection for Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Pearson repeated that the reaction of Chairman Khrushchev and his wife was one of flat disbelief and archetypical of the universal European belief that there was some kind of American conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Oswald. Chairman and Mrs. Khrushchev could not believe that the affair had happened as it apparently did and Mr. Pearson made no headway whatsoever in trying to change their belief that something was not on the level. Chairman Khrushchev greeted Mr. and Mrs. Pearson's efforts with a tolerant smile. . . ."

[Bob Ness]

15 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve,  my view is that the imposter was at the Cuban consulate - it may well have been Oswald himself at the Russian embassy.  I know some folks won't like that view as they don't want Oswald in Mexico at all.  I'm open to the fact that he was taken to Mexico or at least the border by others and that what we see going on in Mexico City is a mix.  What I'm absolutely convinced about is that the WC story and timeline for his activities related to Mexico is bogus, based on the FBI investigation which was both misled by CIA tampering in MC via the their Mexican political and police connections as well as by the marching orders the FBI was given to eliminate leads pointing towards Oswald and others ie. conspiracy.  Of course those orders came a bit later than the telephone call with Hoover talking about an imposter and others - he had no idea at that point that the CIA was floundering around already trying to cover their connections to Oswald.

You know a lot more about it than I do - I'll start with that - but the big problem I have with Oswald in MC at all is that there doesn't seem to be any corroborating physical evidence to support it other than documents that could have been created post facto. That in itself, in ordinary circumstances, wouldn't be so unusual but Mexico City was a nest of spies and the Cuban, Soviet and US consulates and embassies would have been watched and photographed around the clock. Audio recordings and photos that have surfaced were clearly bogus (according to Hoover and Johnson re audio) and any that may have been in existence met the spook equivalence of "my dog ate it" from the people sworn to protect such things. As a topper they had all-to-convenient "technical issues" with some of the photographic equipment, supposedly, but it's safe to assume the Cubans and Soviets didn't have the same problems, concurrently. 

Knowing a bit about how all these spy agency's function, it strains me to believe that something wouldn't have bubbled up eventually that confirms his presence as presented by the WC. The whole episode, when looked at from afar, looks a lot more like a fabrication for whatever reason than it looks like an attempted defection.

[Matt Allison]

Well, Win Scott said he had pics of Oswald in MC, a statement that infuriated Helms to no end.

The doc describing Khrushchev and his wife's incredulity at the official story is a good find.

The idea that the USSR had anything to do with the assassination is possibly the most annoyingly dumb concept I've ever encountered in discussions about this case.

[Larry Hancock]

I don't think we will ever fully resolve the question of Oswald personally being in Mexico - or Mexico City.  Certainly there is good reason to question that he was ever at the Cuban consulate.  Is it possible the Russians totally  lied about his visit to their facility - maybe.  Could everything else about the trip including souvenirs have been planted, maybe, not sure of the point in that. Was there considerable evidence immediately after the fact for the agencies to be in chaos about his being there - absolutely.  Does the trip make sense if he was trying to get Russian permission to return Marina - yes, that is consistent with his letters.

In our upcoming paper on the Red Bird Leads David and I discuss one more reason that at least getting Oswald into Mexico if not to Mexico City was important to the some of the conspirators in terms of  setting up a Cuban connection to the attack on the President, however aside that I don't pretend to know anything other than the official story of his visit, involving both Cuban and Russian contacts, is something the CIA desperately wanted to minimize - and I've written very specifically as to why that was and what operations it would have compromised. The official story is bogus, there is good reason to know even Hoover was quite aware of that.

But specifically to this thread, the additional document which mentions Oswald traveling to Mexico, and offers a statement about his occupation, is also consistent and to me supports the idea that he was driven to others at least to the border. In regard to the scenario I favor that makes perfect sense and I can certainly see the FBI, the CIA and the WC eager to obfuscate any evidence Oswald was in involved with others only weeks before the assassination. I guess I'm not sure why we would want to dismiss that out of hand.

 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I don't think we will ever fully resolve the question of Oswald personally being in Mexico - or Mexico City.  Certainly there is good reason to question that he was ever at the Cuban consulate.

 

Larry, Larry, Larry,

*Sigh*

Don't you know he went there to get airport runway clearance for the plane he was going to hijack and fly to Cuba?

Marina said so.

Steve Thomas