Documents released 12/15/21

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, its just possible they could have done it with a frequency spectrum analysis if they had a voice recording of Oswald from any source to compare patterns....that might explain the reference to a technical operations source.

Larry,

It wouldn't surprise me if they did do some kind of spectrum analysis, in using the word "identical". They didn't write, "sounds like", or "similar". They used the word "identical".

I wondered in reading what Hoover said to Johnson, if he remembered back in 1960 when he wrote that there were suspicions that someone was using Oswald's birth certificate in his sojourn to the Soviet Union.

Did Hoover suspect "at the time" that the CIA was running a doppelgänger? He said something later on about the chicanery the CIA was running down in Mexico City.

Steve Thomas

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

Why would the CIA send a tape to Dallas that was not Oswald's if they had one that was Oswald's?

When was the summary prepared?

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Why would the CIA send a tape to Dallas that was not Oswald's if they had one that was Oswald's?

When was the summary prepared?

Jim,

The summary is dated 11/26/63.

As Hoover said, "It's all very confusing".

Why would they send pictures of a guy who is obviously not Oswald"

Why would they send tape recordings of guy who is obviously not him?

Some kind of delaying tactic maybe? Or a distraction?

As a ruse, or an obfuscation, it certainly didn't fool anyone.

It leads one to ask, what were they trying to cover up?

"Here... here. Look at this shiny object, and focus your attention on this, while we hide what we're really doing".

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

What they could be trying to cover up might be simple, the CIA's use of an Oswald impersonator in counter intelligence activities with the Cubans in MC.  Given their histories we know the CIA and FBI often covered up their activities from each other just as the CIA compartmentalized its activities within its own groups - for instance SAS using AMOT resources out of Miami very possibly was running an operation without informing other divisions or even its MC office (other than perhaps Phillips).

And that might very well have been what Hoover was upset about in his note on the later memo we all know about in regard to not trusting the CIA even if you work with them.

As to the tapes, the simplest answer would be that the CIA office in Mexico City (which itself seemed perplexed about the Oswald in question) sent up a tape and the FBI ran a signature comparison against the voice on it as compared to either a recording of Oswald taken from the news, from his appearance in New Orleans or from prior experience with him.  Which would mean that the FBI and Hoover would immediately know there was a problem and likely an impersonation - what they would not immediately have known was that the impersonation itself had been conducted by the CIA......

If that were later revealed to Hoover, who hated not being all-knowing, you can bet it would have produced that remark about not trusting the CIA.   I don't know how we could be sure but the the wording in the document seems to imply more than someone knowing Oswald listening to a tape. 

[Steve Thomas]

21 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

What they could be trying to cover up might be simple, the CIA's use of an Oswald impersonator in counter intelligence activities with the Cubans in MC.

 

Larry,

This is completely off topic, but I think they tried to do the same thing down in Miami in late March, 1963.

Some guy calling himself Oswald showed up on a dock in Miami and tried to infiltrate a raiding party headed for Cuba.

He was so obnoxious about trying to muscle his way aboard, the Captain had to punch him in the mouth and knock him down. When the raiding party showed up in the Bahamas to re-outfit, the authorities were waiting for them. The Captain said it felt like the authorities knew they were coming.

Steve Thomas

 

[Michael Clark]

On 12/15/2021 at 12:56 PM, Steve Thomas said:

You can read the documents released by the National Archives om 12/15/21 here:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2021

Steve Thomas

Oh boy! I just found out about the release on FB post. Time to see if I can get back into that mode.

 

[Larry Hancock]

Steve, if you have the document or source on the Miami thing I'd like to look at it - certainly at that point in time there was a general directive out to FBI, CIA etc to disrupt and obstruct any missions against Cuba from US soil - seems like a less than subtle approach though.

 

[Michael Clark]

@Bill SimpichBill, are there any cryptos for which we can an eye out this time around?

[Steve Thomas]

11 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, if you have the document or source on the Miami thing I'd like to look at it - certainly at that point in time there was a general directive out to FBI, CIA etc to disrupt and obstruct any missions against Cuba from US soil - seems like a less than subtle approach though.

 

Larry,

Yes, that March -April time frame is exactly right.

What I have is about 10 pages of raw notes. I'll be happy to share those with you as a wp document attachment in an email. They involve a guy named Jerry Buchanan and a ship called the Violin III. (owned by Alexander Rorke, if I remember right). It also drags in Fairhope, AL, where Alpha 66 had an office, and where Carlos Bringuer lived. It also involves a guy named Sanchez, who was one of Veciana's closest allies. It's all kind of fascinating to me.

Steve Thomas

[Joseph Backes]

On 12/15/2021 at 1:46 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Pretty interesting eh?

What this proves even further is what I determined from reading the last batch of docs on this. The CIA was going nuts trying to figure out 1.) If Oswald was there, and 2.) If so, how the heck he got there.

It is looking more and more like the whole thing about the bus rides back and down were pasted together by Echeverria and Ochoa for the CIA and that Hoover essentially discovered this was ersatz.  But he decided to go along with it rather than rock the boat. Meanwhile Angleton and Rocca were isolating Duran and Elena to set up this phony scenario about Oswald being at a twist party in cahoots with Cuba.

 

The whole issue of how did Oswald got to Mexico City was investigated by the FBI.  There was a set of documents on the FBI's investigation of this released during the days of the ARRB.  By chance I ran into Dr. Jerry Rose at Archives II while I was there to get some documents too.  I copied my stuff on the photocopier.  No one does this anymore. It's amazing how technology and the whole culture of researchers scan and use digital cameras now, even cellphone to copy docs. Anyway, at one point I asked him if he found anything interesting.  He was amazed at the amount of material on this.  The FBI could not figure out how Oswald got there.  The main problem seemed to be the lack of accurate documentation from the Mexican authorities.  The bus he allegedly used was a hopeless mess.  

[Joseph Backes]

Oh dear, oh dear, people just don't pay attention.  What is all this noise about Oswald getting to Mexico by car being new to anyone? 

RIF # 104-10015-10359 was first released in 1995 and the bit about the car was right there, unredacted.

I mentioned it in my review of the Third Batch on John Kelin's old website, "Fair Play."  The text of those reviews is on the Assassination Archives and Research Center now. These were 39 CIA documents.  

The Third Batch.  

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Gus Russo on the 2021 Document Release ~ W. Tracy Parnell (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

[James DiEugenio]

You are correct on that Joseph.  That is not new.

But it shows that the CIA was really in a tizzy trying to figure out what the heck really happened in Mexico CIty..

It had to have been something really closely held.

I mean, the summary was written four days later and they still had no definite answers. 

But in my view, the important thing is that they and their buddies Echeverria and Ochoa knew they could not have Oswald coming down in a car. This would indicate that it either was an impersonator, or Oswald came down with someone.

If one looks at the exposes by David Josephs and John Armstrong about Mexico City, I would lean toward the former.  Because the bus story is just shot full of holes including the passport that "Oswald" showed the two Australian girls. (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 282)

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

You are correct on that Joseph.  That is not new.

But it shows that the CIA was really in a tizzy trying to figure out what the heck really happened in Mexico CIty..

It had to have been something really closely held.

I mean, the summary was written four days later and they still had no definite answers. 

But in my view, the important thing is that they and their buddies Echeverria and Ochoa knew they could not have Oswald coming down in a car. This would indicate that it either was an impersonator, or Oswald came down with someone.

If one looks at the exposes by David Josephs and John Armstrong about Mexico City, I would lean toward the former.  Because the bus story is just shot full of holes including the passport that "Oswald" showed the two Australian girls. (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 282)

 

Well...

Richard Case Nagell says he met LHO in Mexico City.  I have always had reservations about Nagell, but some serious people think he is credible. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYI4PqtIyE0

At the 1:04 mark, a man ID'ed as Kostikov and two others recall the meting with LHO. 

The Kostikov in the above show looks like his ID photo, and I think he is "real." 

My guess is LHO in fact went to Mexico City in and around the time frame in question. How he got there or back is another question. He was likely impersonated a couple of times at least. 

In the end, the whole Mexico City trip may be only a tangential clue, another sign US intel was running LHO. 

But the JFKA likely would have happened even without the Mexico City trip. It is not key. At worst, the Mexico City trip is a diversion, a WWIII virus planted by the CIA. Perhaps the MC trip should just be ignored. 

The real story is what elements could have arranged the JFKA, and were also using LHO prior to and possibly during the JFKA? And then could have arranged LHO's murder?

That answer seems to boil down to not the Mafia (they could not run LHO to Russia, nor control the JFKA investigation, etc.), and not the Russian-Cubans (Ruby does not answer to Havana-Moscow). 

Be deduction, we are left with US national-security guys as prime suspects. 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

If Nagell met Oswald in MC, it would've been on a different trip, as Nagell was already incarcerated for the bank incident during Oswald's assumed trip to MC from 9/26-10/2.

If Oswald wasn't in MC when he is said to have been, we need info on where he was instead, and why.