Jump to content
The Education Forum

JMWAVE, anti-Castro Cubans and LHO


Recommended Posts

To Bill's question,  in 1962 there was an abortive effort to set up a training camp in Louisiana,  Sturgis and David Ferrie and others were involved but that plan fell apart after the missile crisis and with the administration crackdown on exile missions.  In the summer of 1963 there was a minor effort to take some volunteers to a place outside New Orleans and give them some minimal training before shipping them out to Central America...that camp collapsed following an FBI raid on a McClaney farm in the same area where explosives and other materials were being collected for a very separate bombing mission against Cuba.  The two 1963 activities are often confabulated into one "camp" but the details on all three "camps" are in my books.

While in jail in New Orleans Oswald did request to meed with a specific, subversive activities division FBI officer but instead a regular staff person was sent to meet with him.

As to Chicago, way to long to go into here but the "Lee" aspect was investigated and found to have no validity by the HSCA....one man, Vallee, was reported as a  threat by someone he made hostile remarks to about JFK while eating breakfast at a bowling alley diner; the second threat was apparently routed to the Secret Service by the FBI in regard to people they felt might be hostile to JFK and who were traveling to Chicago.  People were picked up and questioned but beyond that they were not arrested, no weapons were seized and they were released within 24 hours.

Edited by Larry Hancock
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 45
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

To Bill's question,  in 1962 there was an abortive effort to set up a training camp in Louisiana,  Sturgis and David Ferrie and others were involved but that plan fell apart after the missile crisis and with the administration crackdown on exile missions.  In the summer of 1962 there was a minor effort to take some volunteers to a place outside New Orleans and give them some minimal training before shipping them out to Central America...that camp collapsed following an FBI raid on a McClaney farm in the same area where explosives and other materials were being collected for a very separate bombing mission against Cuba.  The two 1963 activities are often confabulated into one "camp" but the details on all three "camps" are in my books.

While in jail in New Orleans Oswald did request to meed with a specific, subversive activities division FBI officer but instead a regular staff person was sent to meet with him.

As to Chicago, way to long to go into here but the "Lee" aspect was investigated and found to have no validity by the HSCA....one man, Vallee, was reported as a  threat by someone he made hostile remarks to about JFK while eating breakfast at a bowling alley diner; the second threat was apparently routed to the Secret Service by the FBI in regard to people they felt might be hostile to JFK and who were traveling to Chicago.  People were picked up and questioned but beyond that they were not arrested, no weapons were seized and they were released within 24 hours.

Thanks for the info!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's become interesting to me over the years how the narrative flipped the evening of November 22nd from Oswald the Castro Commie to the next day and forever since to Oswald the Russian Commie.  The national press took over quickly.

Edited by Ron Bulman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were lots of meetings between Harvey and Roselli in 1963 before harvey was shipped off to Rome in May.  he let Roselli know  his funding was cut off. what do to with exiles who were trained and armed and angry.  Roselli has meeting with Carlos Marcello and Trafficante in June. I suspect they raised funds to continue to support the group and Marcello also knew of Oswald.  Harvey also apparently spoke to roselli in fall of 63. i would bet donuts to dollars that either Harvey or someone at CIA let Roselli or whoever was running the exiles about the backchannel discussions with Attwood and Castro's representative. relying that info to the exile group would have been like throwing a match to a gallon of gasoline. likely became strike 3 in their minds, thereby causing them to implement plan to kill JFK. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

There were lots of meetings between Harvey and Roselli in 1963 before harvey was shipped off to Rome in May.  he let Roselli know  his funding was cut off. what do to with exiles who were trained and armed and angry.  Roselli has meeting with Carlos Marcello and Trafficante in June. I suspect they raised funds to continue to support the group and Marcello also knew of Oswald.  Harvey also apparently spoke to roselli in fall of 63. i would bet donuts to dollars that either Harvey or someone at CIA let Roselli or whoever was running the exiles about the backchannel discussions with Attwood and Castro's representative. relying that info to the exile group would have been like throwing a match to a gallon of gasoline. likely became strike 3 in their minds, thereby causing them to implement plan to kill JFK. 

Larry S.--

To be sure, the CIA-intel community had helped create a situation where there were hundreds, if not a few thousand, armed and angry Cuban exiles in the US in 1963. 

JMWave-exiles are all over the map in Dallas and N.O. They had the means and motivation, and could create the opportunity.

But LHO seems in a different kettle of fish. Not involved with the Rip Robertsons or Martinos or Morales. Moreover, LHO may have been an admirer of JFK. 

What witting role would LHO play in the JFKA?  If not witting, then how to manipulate LHO into being a poison pill or patsy? Why would LHO draw a handgun in the Texas Theater in front a group of DPD'ers, an almost suicidal act?  The operational Cuban exiles came prepared with multiple LHO wallets? 

There is certainly a lot of smoke...not sure about the fire....

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Larry S.--

To be sure, the CIA-intel community had helped create a situation where there were hundreds, if not a few thousand, armed and angry Cuban exiles in the US in 1963. 

JMWave-exiles are all over the map in Dallas and N.O. They had the means and motivation, and could create the opportunity.

But LHO seems in a different kettle of fish. Not involved with the Rip Robertsons or Martinos or Morales. Moreover, LHO may have been an admirer of JFK. 

What witting role would LHO play in the JFKA?  If not witting, then how to manipulate LHO into being a poison pill or patsy? Why would LHO draw a handgun in the Texas Theater in front a group of DPD'ers, an almost suicidal act?  The operational Cuban exiles came prepared with multiple LHO wallets? 

There is certainly a lot of smoke...not sure about the fire....

 

 

 

 

 

It's all just smoke and mirrors, move on.  Other than Roberson, Martino and Morales being JMWave.  Which was helping run Oswald through Joannides and the DRE. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

It's all just smoke and mirrors, move on.  Other than Roberson, Martino and Morales being JMWave.  Which was helping run Oswald through Joannides and the DRE. 

Ron B-

I am not suggesting smoke and mirrors. I want to know about the "last mile." 

I actually am more suspicious about David Atlee Phillips. 

But I am looking for a scenario that explains the role of LHO. I have fabricated one such scenario. But what I surmise, and what is fact .... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might have been as simple as Emilio Rodriguez (JMWAVE FI) working with his brother Arnesto (acquaintance of LHO) close friend of Carlos Bringuier. Emilio may have just been doing his day job of recruiting Cuban diplomats and sent LHO to Mexico City. It also may have a bit more complicated than that.

Edited by David Boylan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As David says, we laid out a fairly simple scenario involving DRE connections in New Orleans to both case officers and SAS officers at JMWAVE - officers with projects in play which could have used Oswald in both propaganda and counter intelligence, both of which would have involved Mexico City (and very likely David Phillips).

As David also said, it certainly could be more complexity in getting Oswald from NO to the Mexican border and back to Dallas ...we are wrestling with that, well David is, I'm just trying to keep up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As David says, we laid out a fairly simple scenario involving DRE connections in New Orleans to both case officers and SAS officers at JMWAVE - officers with projects in play which could have used Oswald in both propaganda and counter intelligence, both of which would have involved Mexico City (and very likely David Phillips).

As David also said, it certainly could be more complexity in getting Oswald from NO to the Mexican border and back to Dallas ...we are wrestling with that, well David is, I'm just trying to keep up.

DB-LH:

When I speak about the "last mile," I mean the actual events on 11/22. I suspect any number of elements manipulated LHO pre-JFKA.

OK, let's assume the scenario the JMWave-exile crowd puts snipers into position on 11/22, and perhaps a decoy on the Grassy Knoll. 

OK, let's further assume they follow the CIA-Mafia playbook, and want a patsy. They don't have one...but LHO will suffice, and they deploy him, either as poison pill or patsy. 

But what does the JMWave crowd say to LHO to get him to disappear at the moment shots rang out? How did they convince LHO, a photographer, to not stand on the street and take photos of JFK?  

After the fact, why did LHO arm himself, and then even draw his weapon on DPD'ers in the Texas Theater? 

Who planted a wallet at the Tippit murder scene? 

Was the real plan to murder LHO post-JFKA, or even simultaneously, and plant the wallet on LHO? 

I just wonder about the fit between LHO and JMWave crowd. 

Possibly, if what Veciana says is true, the alleged meeting between Phillips and LHO in Dallas was for Phillips to advise LHO he would be contacted soon by JMWaver's and to cooperate with them. 

Well, that's my speculation for the day....

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gosh Ben, questions that have been outstanding for decades - all at once,  would you settle for answers for one or two to start...grin.

I'd love to give them to you all in one fell swoop and would if I had them.  I have described how Oswald was a poison pill for the agencies themselves and why plotters at WAVE would have known that - simply associating him with the crime, bringing him in as a suspect or accessory to be investigated would have panicked both FBI and CIA and hamstrung their investigations at some level.  As a matter of fact we know it did in regard to both agencies as the FBI destroyed and altered evidence and WAVE actually made an investigation of possible Cuban exile involvement and then ditched the findings.

In regard to Oswald being a patsy,  let's not even go that far and assume he had to been seen as the shooter, lets say all that would be necessary would be to tie him to the attack, not as a shooter (that's the lone nut after the fact damage control thing) but as a suspect, an accessory - actually planting a rifle on the sixth floor linked to him and doing something to draw attention to shot/s from that building would do the trick wherever Oswald had been.  Frazier was brought in as a suspect, questioned and threatened with charges for less than that.  So was another TSBD employee, an accountant no less, with even the most minimal reason to have been considered a suspect. And once Oswald was even a suspect - with his image from New Orleans, his time in Russia - where would the press have chased that story. I can tell you, I put one very early newspaper headline on the cover of Tipping Point.

And any investigation of Oswald as an accessory would have triggered a search for associates and led back down a trail of his links to mysterious Cubans in New Orleans suspected as being Castro agents (just where Garrison started a few years later)....there were leads planted to feed that story line and many of them were put into play over the next 72 hours - however Hoover's orders and the overall high level government containment operation totally overwhelmed them. 

Of course  Oswald might have looked even more suspicious, what if the media had a story the he and others had been making arrangements to fly out of the country...that would help, but instead of the media that report was made to the FBI and the FBI kindly backdated it from days before to months before to write it off with no further investigation.

Beyond that we are all faced with the fact that  wrestle with all the details of what happened as if they were actually the plan - we have no way of knowing that and we even have the remark from Martino that the whole plan fell apart when whatever was supposed to happen with Oswald came apart at the seems with his arrest.

Now having said that, I don't expect it even comes close to answering your questions but I also don't think they can be answered simply in the context of November 22, which that is what David and I are working on now.  Perhaps we can come up with a scenario that does explain at least part of what seems anomalous that day - realizing we have no idea exactly what was supposed to happen other than the shooting attack on the President.  We do have to consider that there may well have been one plan as understood by the tactical team in Dallas and quite another in the minds of those above them.  As Wheaton claims to have heard,they had their own motives and plans.

I continue to ponder it all and spend some time working on a more detailed scenario, but I do that to satisfy myself, not with the idea it can ever be proved. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Gosh Ben, questions that have been outstanding for decades - all at once,  would you settle for answers for one or two to start...grin.

I'd love to give them to you all in one fell swoop and would if I had them.  I have described how Oswald was a poison pill for the agencies themselves and why plotters at WAVE would have known that - simply associating him with the crime, bringing him in as a suspect or accessory to be investigated would have panicked both FBI and CIA and hamstrung their investigations at some level.  As a matter of fact we know it did in regard to both agencies as the FBI destroyed and altered evidence and WAVE actually made an investigation of possible Cuban exile involvement and then ditched the findings.

In regard to Oswald being a patsy,  let's not even go that far and assume he had to been seen as the shooter, lets say all that would be necessary would be to tie him to the attack, not as a shooter (that's the lone nut after the fact damage control thing) but as a suspect, an accessory - actually planting a rifle on the sixth floor linked to him and doing something to draw attention to shot/s from that building would do the trick wherever Oswald had been.  Frazier was brought in as a suspect, questioned and threatened with charges for less than that.  So was another TSBD employee, an accountant no less, with even the most minimal reason to have been considered a suspect. And once Oswald was even a suspect - with his image from New Orleans, his time in Russia - where would the press have chased that story. I can tell you, I put one very early newspaper headline on the cover of Tipping Point.

And any investigation of Oswald as an accessory would have triggered a search for associates and led back down a trail of his links to mysterious Cubans in New Orleans suspected as being Castro agents (just where Garrison started a few years later)....there were leads planted to feed that story line and many of them were put into play over the next 72 hours - however Hoover's orders and the overall high level government containment operation totally overwhelmed them. 

Of course  Oswald might have looked even more suspicious, what if the media had a story the he and others had been making arrangements to fly out of the country...that would help, but instead of the media that report was made to the FBI and the FBI kindly backdated it from days before to months before to write it off with no further investigation.

Beyond that we are all faced with the fact that  wrestle with all the details of what happened as if they were actually the plan - we have no way of knowing that and we even have the remark from Martino that the whole plan fell apart when whatever was supposed to happen with Oswald came apart at the seems with his arrest.

Now having said that, I don't expect it even comes close to answering your questions but I also don't think they can be answered simply in the context of November 22, which that is what David and I are working on now.  Perhaps we can come up with a scenario that does explain at least part of what seems anomalous that day - realizing we have no idea exactly what was supposed to happen other than the shooting attack on the President.  We do have to consider that there may well have been one plan as understood by the tactical team in Dallas and quite another in the minds of those above them.  As Wheaton claims to have heard,they had their own motives and plans.

I continue to ponder it all and spend some time working on a more detailed scenario, but I do that to satisfy myself, not with the idea it can ever be proved. 

 

 

 

LH--

Well, fair enough. I admire your circumspect and honest assessment. We only know what has been released in documents, or what has been dug out in earnest reporting (and now witnesses are disappearing). 

Well, it is exasperating. 

I still think a David Phillips PR stunt may have been in the works....

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I definitely think Phillips was involved with a longer term propaganda operation using Oswald, that would have been a joint operation with SAS staff at WAVE and possibly involving DRE as well who had begun running an active propaganda effort during September.  Phillips would have brought in INCA as well.   Beyond that I see Phillips as actively supporting a SAS counter intelligence effort against the Cuban consulate in Mexico City.  Both of those explain why in not only went to DC in October but went on down for meetings at WAVE in Miami.

What I am unclear about is whether he was directly involved in assassination conspiracy, peripherally involved or just went along with the event and tried to use his resources to point Oswald to Castro and take advantage of the situation.   Clearly I see him as a key figure given that I gave him a chapter in SWHT,  its just a matter of of degree - given that he chose to actually point towards Morales in one of his books (which Morales took great exception to) its even harder to make the call.  Especially since at the end Phillips out and out said the assassination involved members of the intelligence community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some context on Tony Sforza and Emilio Rodriguez:

Tony Sforza worked for David Morales. Emilio Rodriguez worked for Sforza in Cuba. Emilio’s brother was Arnesto who knew Oswald. Sforza became somewhat of a Langley legend after handling the defection of Juanita Castro, Fidel's sister.

Emilio Rodriguez was recruited by Henry Hecksher. Hechsher would later become the principal Case Officer for AMWORLD and Manuel Artime. Hecksher would give Artime two 1/2 dollar bills as Jim noted here - 

Emilio A. Rodriguez (AMIRE-1) and Tony Sforza (AMRYE-1) were part of the CIA’s stay behind operation (AMRYE) after the US presence left Cuba. Other stay behind people were Frank Belsito and Ralph Seehafer (Dave McLane in his Western Hemisphere report failed to mention Rodriguez and Sforza. An oversite?? http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/104-10301-10001.pdf )

From Mary Ferrell’s site contributed by Bill Simpich and John Newman concerning Tony Sforza (AMRYE-1):

“This is another of the CIA’s most closely guarded cryptonyms. To break it requires knowing the life story of Tony Sforza and his aliases—Henry Sloman, Frank Stevens, and Alfred Sarno–a subject covered at some length in Where Angels Tread Lightly, especially Appendix Three. Sforza’s work with AMPARCH-1 (Warren Frank, AKA Edward Knapman) and AMIRE-1 (Emilio Rodriguez, AKA Peter Digerveno) together first in Havana, and afterward at JMWAVE, as well as his tempestuous relationship with AMCONCERT-1 (Francisco “Pancho” Varona) makes possible the concrete identifications of these three men with their CIA cryptonyms. CIA documents establish that AMRYE-1 ran the AMRYE net, the principal stay-behind net in Cuba after the break in relations in January 1961, and that he received a huge amount of assistance from AMIRE-1 (Emilio Rodriguez). In CIA cable traffic associated with exfiltrations at that time, Sforza appears simply as “Henry,” who is later the “Henry Sloman” in JMWAVE documents. Tony Sforza’s cover pseudonym for public consumption was Frank Stevens.”

John Newman and Alan Kent

https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/08/03/2017-jfk-document-release-shows-former-intelligence-analyst-got-right/

Some good discussion of Sforza

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/6896-tony-sforza/

Sforza and Rodriguez spent time in jail in Cuba before exfiltrating to Miami in June 1961. David Morales tried to find office space for them but couldn't. The powers that be decided to keep Rodriguez out of the office and under deep cover. He had worked in Havana at an electronics store. 

JMWave investigation the assassination.

“I recall that Mr. Anthony Sforza, AMOT case officer, told me later that he had received specific instructions from Shackley about how the AMOT service was to go about aiding in the investigation.”

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10103-10024.pdf

On the AMOTS

“B. The AMOTS and the JURE - I satisfied myself in talking to Tony Sforza that the AMOTS in general are politically opposed to the JURE and that the reporting of this group, to which AMTAUP/2 belongs must be considered in light of its prejudices and lack of objectivity insofar as the JURE is concerned.”

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10179-10153.pdf

Sforza and Emilio Rodriguez receiving a medal for their work in Cuba.

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/docid-32365143.pdf

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...