Jim Hargrove Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 A new article, co-authored by John Armstrong and David Josephs, discusses this and other aspects of…. The Pre-Arranged Murder of Oswald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Mellor Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 Cheers Jim! Huge piece of work. Gives a whole new meaning to the term "where there's a Will, there's a way!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Cohen Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said: A new article, co-authored by John Armstrong and David Josephs, discusses this and other aspects of…. The Pre-Arranged Murder of Oswald I stopped reading at the reference to a wallet belonging to "Harvey Oswald," considering that "Harvey & Lee" adherents can't even seem to agree amongst themselves "which" Oswald was actually murdered by Ruby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said: I stopped reading at the reference to a wallet belonging to "Harvey Oswald," considering that "Harvey & Lee" adherents can't even seem to agree amongst themselves "which" Oswald was actually murdered by Ruby. Jonathan, Why would you believe that? Most folks I known in the Harvey and Lee research field point to Harvey Oswald as the one killed by Jack Ruby and offer extensive and convincing evidence that Jack Ruby shot the man known as Harvey Oswald and not the original Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you offer more or fill out with more detail what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Jim, In one of the photos the Western Union building and the City Hall building are shown. Down the street I think I see the Triple Underpass. Is the white building the one after the Western Union building the Court House building? I'm just trying to make sense of this: Any comment? Edited March 30, 2022 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Cohen Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 1 hour ago, John Butler said: Jonathan, Why would you believe that? Most folks I known in the Harvey and Lee research field point to Harvey Oswald as the one killed by Jack Ruby and offer extensive and convincing evidence that Jack Ruby shot the man known as Harvey Oswald and not the original Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you offer more or fill out with more detail what you are talking about. I don't have the time to search the archive, but I recall Jim Hargrove once saying that it "didn't matter" which of the doppelgangers was killed by Ruby and which one simply disappeared off the face of the earth -- possibly in a thread about the exhumation and Sandy Larsen's misinterpretation of the mastoidectomy scar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 Anyone who has bothered to make even a cursory read of John Armstrong's work will realize that we believe it was Russian-speaking Harvey who was assassinated by Ruby. The issue here, though, is quite different. Ruby shot Oswald less than 5 minutes after he left the Western Union office. At the time he left, Oswald was still in Fritz's office. The Warren Commission concluded it was blind luck that Ruby arrived at the parking lot ramp just seconds before Oswald was brought there. This new essay presents a far more believable theory of the hit. But, of course, you have to bother to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 1 hour ago, John Butler said: Jim, In one of the photos the Western Union building and the City Hall building are shown. Down the street I think I see the Triple Underpass. Is the white building the one after the Western Union building the Court House building? John, In Dallas, it’s nearly a mile from 106 S. Harwood St. (the old City Hall building) to Dealey Plaza, and so I doubt that is the Court House building, but I’ve only been to the area once. I’ll try to ask John about it next time we talk. Also, we just added a couple of introductory paragraphs to the essay, which I thought put the assassination of Oswald into perspective. You’ll may have to manually refresh your browser view to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Jim - Read most of it, skimmed some. What was the relationship between Westbrook and Croy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: John, In Dallas, it’s nearly a mile from 106 S. Harwood St. (the old City Hall building) to Dealey Plaza, and so I doubt that is the Court House building, but I’ve only been to the area once. I’ll try to ask John about it next time we talk. Also, we just added a couple of introductory paragraphs to the essay, which I thought put the assassination of Oswald into perspective. You’ll may have to manually refresh your browser view to see it. Jim, Sorry. I am confusing two different streets. So, ignore my last question. Great piece on the info on the shooting of Harvey Oswald. More detail than I have seen any where else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 10 hours ago, Paul Brancato said: Jim - Read most of it, skimmed some. What was the relationship between Westbrook and Croy? Hi Paul, We think both Westbrook and Croy were intimately involved in the murder of J.D. Tippit, that both of them were responsible for producing the throw-down wallet (with the so-called Hidell IDs) near 10th and Patton, that they were the two men seen by Earlene Roberts driving car 207 honking the horn near the Beckley St. rooming house, and that both Westbrook and Croy were involved in leading Ruby to Oswald at police headquarters in Dallas. For John’s detailing of the evidence tying both Westbrook and Croy to the Tippit murder and the 10th and Patton throw-down wallet, see…. Westbrook and Croy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 On 3/30/2022 at 8:40 AM, Jim Hargrove said: A new article, co-authored by John Armstrong and David Josephs, discusses this and other aspects of…. The Pre-Arranged Murder of Oswald Jim, Just a little side note.... The article says, " “Minutes after Oswald was arrested something very unusual happened. An unidentified person from the Dallas Police Department contacted Army Intelligence Lt. Colonel Robert E. Jones, the Operations Officer of the 112th INTC group in San Antonio.” I don't think the person from the DPD is unidentified. http://washingtonbabylon.com/bunker-command-center-jfk-assassination-merely-worlds-interesting-basement/ Stringfellow and Biggio were working the police radio at the Fairgrounds on 11/22/63 Stringfellow and Biggio were both Detectives in the DPD’s Special Service Bureau see p. 4 of Batchelor’s Exhibit 5001 https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf “Army Apparently didn't tell Commission of Oswald's Alias” by Earl Golz Dallas Morning News March 19, 1978 in the Weisberg Collection http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/F%20Disk/FBI/FBI%20Records%20Release%2012-7-77%20News%20Accounts/Item%20069.pdf “However, Biggio, who was directing police intelligence communications at the Fair Park office the day of the assassination, said, "We called down to Austin after we got the name Hidell, I believe, and they came back with that information." “Don Stringfellow, a fellow police intelligence officer working with Biggio at the Fair Park office, was named as the source of information in a secret cable the night of Nov. 22 from Army intelligence in Texas to the U.S. Strike Command at MacDill AirForce Base in Florida. The cable said that information "obtained from Oswald revealed that he had defected to Cuba in 1959 and is a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.” (In his article, Golz has this slightly wrong. The cable in question actually went from Washington to McDill AFB). https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK So, who exactly did the police have in custody? Continuing with Golz's article... “(Lieutenant Colonel, Roy) Pate, the Army intelligence commander in Dallas, said his group was getting information soon after the assassination fromboth the Dallas police and the FBI, but the cable using Stringfellow as a source "did not originate in Dallas because my only reporting channels in the Army were to the112th in San Antonio." Biggio and Stringefellow did not go go through the local Dallas office of the 112th, but went directly to the 112th Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) On 3/31/2022 at 5:50 AM, Jim Hargrove said: Hi Paul, We think both Westbrook and Croy were intimately involved in the murder of J.D. Tippit, that both of them were responsible for producing the throw-down wallet (with the so-called Hidell IDs) near 10th and Patton, that they were the two men seen by Earlene Roberts driving car 207 honking the horn near the Beckley St. rooming house, and that both Westbrook and Croy were involved in leading Ruby to Oswald at police headquarters in Dallas. For John’s detailing of the evidence tying both Westbrook and Croy to the Tippit murder and the 10th and Patton throw-down wallet, see…. Westbrook and Croy I wonder what our own top Tippit murder researcher Joseph McBride might have to say regards this postulation of Westbrook and Croy being the two officers who Earlene Roberts claimed stopped in front of her residence and honked ( tit-tit ) their patrol car horn? Also, in reading your initial post I noticed you mentioned Croy as being right next to Ruby in the seconds leading up to Ruby's leap from the press line to blow Oswald's guts out. I find it equally interesting that Croy wasn't the only Dallas PD officer right next to Ruby at that location and time. Big William (Blackie) Harrison was actually so close to Ruby as well it appears they may have brushed against each other. Photos prove this. Harrison is the big dark haired, dark civilian suited guy jumping in to restrain Ruby the second Ruby shoots Oswald. He's the only person in those photos and news video with a cigar in his mouth. Dallas PD Officer Harrison was one of the most chummy of Ruby in his years of duty. Stopping into Jack's club ( or clubs ) for coffee ( or beer? ) many times over the years. It always makes me cringe when I see the news video of DPD Chief Curry telling the press that his department did an investigation into how many of his officers may have known Jack Ruby in any way. Curry says ..."only 25 even knew of Jack Ruby." Ha! Just in the DPD basement and upper street security detail that morning "alone" were a dozen officers who knew Ruby very well. Harrison, Patrick Dean, Vaughn, etc. Ruby knew all of them by sight and recounted such in his Warren Commission testimony. Referring to some of them by their first names! Ruby is wandering freely in the press filled halls of the DPD Friday night. He attends Wade's press conference and after getting up on a table in the back of the room shouts out corrective Oswald background info about Oswald's New Orleans "Fair Play For Cuba" to Wade who wasn't as hip to this info as Ruby was. Ruby at another time that weekend is actually right next to DPD Homicide Captain Will Fritz's office door window. Looking for Oswald. Probably with deli-sandwich holding bag in hand? Talk about ridiculously illogical access. Then, Sunday morning, Ruby just saunters down a secured entrance ramp into the highly secured DPD parking basement, mingles into the press crowd and wrangles himself into the very front of the line and just feet from the wide open Oswald, all while rubbing elbows with DPD officers William (Blackie ) Harrison and reserve officer Croy? And are all the police and Sheriff dispatch officers lying who claimed it was Jack Ruby who called then early Sunday morning to warn them about moving Oswald so publicly announced and saying "We are going to kill him."? Whether the Oswald in this story was Lee Harvey or Harvey Lee there is a lot of great information in the initial thread story link. I always felt that the entire Oswald arrest, interrogation and killing story in the failed security hands of the Dallas PD experience alone would warrant a very important and fascinating documentary on it's own. The well researched piece linked above reveals this in spades. Sickening how both Curry and Fritz continually nixed the concerned advice of others in them publicly announcing the date, time and location of a daytime move of Oswald, when so many of these other security experienced professionals urged them to do the transfer at night without advanced press and public notice. The "worst possible security failure" possible happened because of this DPD ignoring of this better Oswald security advice. Negligence beyond negligence. Crazy illogical imo. And of course fishier that the worst fish stink day in Amsterdam. Lastly, Ruby is quoted as saying he feared for his family's security in his claims about being placed in the Oswald killing position he was and then testifying about his actions. I always felt it was totally rational to consider the possibility that Ruby was ordered to do Oswald, with the mob like threat that if he didn't and Oswald started talking not only would Ruby be dealt with but his family as well! That would be an incredibly powerful motivating factor for Ruby to do this insane and almost suicidal act. He loved his sister more than any other woman in his life. A little aside regard's Jack Ruby's sister Eva Grant. I recently caught a video of Geraldo Rivera on his "Goodnight America" show interviewing Ruby's sister Eva Grant with former Carousel Club comic/mc Wally Weston. I had never seen any other Eva Grant interview video. Weston claimed Ruby knew Oswald. Geraldo asked Weston to explain and tell his story. Then it was Ruby sister Eva Grant's time to speak. Ruby's sister Eva attacked Weston and his Ruby/Oswald defamation claim and his personal background like a crazed yelling street person. Jumping up out of her street and waving her arms and yelling over Geraldo for several minutes and who just couldn't get her to stop her worked up physically animated rant. Rivera just kept shaking his head at this embarrassing and unstoppable manic yelling exhibition on Ruby's sister's part. From what I saw of Ruby's sister's antics on that show I thought she looked and sounded just as emotionally off track as Oswald's mother Marguerite. And I thought nobody could ever top Oswald's mom in that category. Edited April 1, 2022 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I’m not sure that Stringfellow’s call and a possible Westbrook call to Colonel Jones are mutually exclusive. jim - what is the source for Westbrook calling Colonel Jones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 Lt. Col. Jones told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he got the information about ALEK JAMES HIDELL from someone inside the Dallas Police Department between 1:30 PM and 2:00 PM on Nov. 22. Since it was around 1:40 PM near 10th and Patton that Westbrook was showing the throw-down wallet with the Hidell ID’s, John makes the assumption that Westbrook was the most likely candidate for the call. There is no direct evidence other than that. Thanks also to Steve Thomas and Joe Bauer for the fascinating posts. In addition to what Steve wrote, there are several other errors in the article by Earl Golz. First, Golz wrote about Hill and the other officers in the car with Oswald: “On the way they discovered identification cards in his wallet under his real name and the Hidell alias.” Actually, only the Fair Play for Cuba Committee card signed by Hidell was found in the arrest wallet. The false Hidell ID’s were originally in the 10th and Patton throw-down wallet Westbrook was holding at the scene. In the same article, Golz wrote: “However, Biggio, who was directing police intelligence communications at the Fair Park office the day of the assassination said, ‘We called down to Austin after we got the name Hidell, I believe, and they came back with that information.’”’ Biggio may well have called Austin, but Austin already had the information because Jones said they received the call between 1:30 and 2:00 PM. Is there any evidence that either Stringfellow or Biggio communicated about the Hidell information before 2 PM that day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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