How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

According to Jim Marrs, Haire did not discover for nearly 25 years that Oswald had been escorted from the front of the building. Haire clearly had little interest in a newsworthy event that happened right next to his place of work.

This implies that Haire did know and recognize Oswald, or an Oswald double at the back of the theater for 25 years.  As far as having little interest in a newsworthy event, Haire thought he saw the real thing in Oswald being escorted from the theater.  His Oswald was nearly identical to the Oswald taken from the front of the theater.  This is another reason I am changing my opinion on how close the resemblances of the two Oswalds was.  Of course, then there is the problem that a good many people have with facial recognition that needs to be considered.      

[Joe Bauer]

Just a common sense thought contemplation here?

Isn't it possible that the highest anxiety alert Dallas policemen who rushed into the theater and who were told to look for a younger aged slight build white male may have been so hyper-vigilant reactive that any white male of that age and build group ( and especially sitting alone! ) in that  theater would have caused them to grab them for at least a closer look over and questioning than just leaving them sit?

Whoever the Dallas PD wrangled out of the back of the theater in the alley was obviously someone who fit that general young white male slight build description. And their sitting by themselves without a date or buddy companion might have fed the Dallas police suspicion even more?

Edited April 25, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The man Bernard Haire saw must have been George Applin. There is no other plausible explanation.

Of course, defenders of this statement have no idea what George Applin looked like, but they are doggedly certain he was the “Oswald look-alike” seen by Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire. What high research standards!

But there is another highly plausible explanation: Shortly before the assassination of JFK, one Oswald paraded around on the sixth floor of the Book Depository to be seen carrying a Big Gun while the other Oswald was on lower floor(s) of the same building.  

Minutes later one Oswald, seen by Mrs. Reid wearing a white t-shirt, left the TSBD from the west side and was picked up on Elm St. by a Nash Rambler station wagon seen by Roger Craig and a number of other witnesses.   

At about the same time, the other Oswald, wearing a brown shirt, left the TSBD from the north side. Following instructions probably from Bill Shelley, this Oswald boarded the Marsalis bus driven by Cecil McWatters and, when it got stuck in traffic, took William Whaley’s taxi.

Click here to see the enormous amount of evidence for how the two Oswalds left the Book Depository.

Just as was done at the TSBD and the JFK assassination, one Oswald framed the other for the Tippit murder. One Oswald was eventually picked up by Dallas Police at the Texas Theater while the other was most likely escorted out the back door and driven to a car with with a license plate assigned to Collins Radio’s Carl Mather.  As many researchers know, Dallas-based Collins Radio was involved with numerous CIA operations.  Click here for details.

That one Oswald was framing the other for both the Tippit murder and the assassination of JFK is made crystal clear by the fact that there were Lee Harvey Oswald wallets “found” at 10th and Patton as well as on the other Oswald’s person while in a squad car headed to police headquarters.

Two Oswald wallets for two Oswalds.  What could be clearer than that? 
 

[Paul Brancato]

Jim - pardon the no doubt oft answered question - what were the two Oswalds up to in the TSBD? 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Jim - pardon the no doubt oft answered question - what were the two Oswalds up to in the TSBD? 

Hi Paul….

Thanks for asking.

LHO, we’re told, began working at the TSBD on October 16, 1963.  From that date to 11/22/63, another Oswald appeared in many places in and around Dallas doing all sorts of things to look like a potential presidential assassin.  No doubt you’re familiar with the list.

On Nov. 22, while LHO was riding with Wesley Frazier and then starting work at the TSBD, another Oswald was identified by two different people at the Top 10 Record Store in Oak Cliff and, around 8:30 am, was seen at a Jiffy store by Fred Moore, who sold this Oswald two bottles of beer after seeing his Texas drivers license. Moore reported the name on the license as “Lee Oswald or possibly H. Lee Oswald” and the birth date as 1939.  After a little liquid courage....
 
Shortly before the assassination, a number of witnesses saw two men--including a man in a light colored shirt who some said looked like Oswald--on the sixth floor of the TSBD.  Several said he appeared to be holding a rifle with a scope.  John A. and I think that this Oswald was, once again, framing the other Oswald for the assassination of JFK. He would do it again near 10th and Patton shortly thereafter.

For more details on this see the following pages on HarveyandLee.net:

November 22, 1963

and 

Setting up HARVEY Oswald as the "Patsy"

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

But there is another highly plausible explanation: Shortly before the assassination of JFK, one Oswald paraded around on the sixth floor of the Book Depository to be seen carrying a Big Gun while the other Oswald was on lower floor(s) of the same building.

You can't be serious! It's "highly plausible" that there were two Oswalds running around inside the book depository?

Contrary to Jim's and the Warren Commission's account, Oswald almost certainly was not on the sixth floor, shooting at JFK.

What's highly plausible is that the one and only Oswald's movements during the half hour or so until the assassination were deliberately misrepresented by the Warren Commission, and that his alibi was deliberately misrepresented in the FBI's reports of his interrogations:

• http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-alibi
• http://www.prayer-man.com/then-went-outside-to-watch-p-parade/

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

You can't be serious! It's "highly plausible" that there were two Oswalds running around inside the book depository?

Jeremy,

Have you read witness testimony concerning how Oswald left the TSBD?  There are two different accounts of how that happened.

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Contrary to Jim's and the Warren Commission's account, Oswald almost certainly was not on the sixth floor, shooting at JFK.

I think we are getting to Jeremy on "conspiracy stuff".  Nah.  It is just another cointelpro.

"There is yet another tactic that seems to be in widespread use in forums on the JFK assassination, and it is the ultimate con: Disinformants earn trust by establishing themselves as conspiracy theorists. They often “prove” it by recycling, then repackaging, the stolen work of others. (Since the information is already out there in the ether, they are not really damaging the cover-up.) Or they may present a new theory,one that sounds good but is actually nonsense."

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

What's highly plausible is that the one and only Oswald's movements during the half hour or so until the assassination were deliberately misrepresented by the Warren Commission, and that his alibi was deliberately misrepresented in the FBI's reports of his interrogations:

• http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-alibi
• http://www.prayer-man.com/then-went-outside-to-watch-p-parade/

More of the same.

Edited April 24, 2022 by John Butler

[Steve Thomas]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 John A. and I think that this Oswald was, once again, framing the other Oswald for the assassination of JFK. He would do it again near 10th and Patton shortly thereafter.

For more details on this see the following pages on HarveyandLee.net:

November 22, 1963

and 

Setting up HARVEY Oswald as the "Patsy"

Jim,

I know that a wallet was "found" at 10th and Patton, but was a second Oswald "seen" at 10th and Patton?

Could this be the person that the Dispatcher said was last seen running north on Patton?

1:34 PM
1283. 550: ...and work to North Jefferson. We've got a
witness that seen him go north...

 

1:44 PM

1354. 87: 87. What was the last location anybody had on
that suspect out in here in Oak Cliff.
1355. DIS: Running north on Patton.

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

John A. makes the case that on the day of the assassination, starting from early morning on,  Lee Oswald was wearing a white shirt and Harvey Oswald (the guy killed by Ruby) was wearing a brown shirt.  As you know, the original police dispatch describing Tippit’s killer was: "Last seen about the 300 block East Jefferson. He's a white male about 30, 5'8", black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." (emphasis added)

Ted Calloway saw the shooter walking south on Patton and described him as a "white male, 27, 5'11", 165 lbs, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light gray Eisenhower type jacket, dark trousers, and a white shirt."

Jack Tatum said, "he had on a light colored zipper jacket, dark trousers and what looked like a t-shirt on." Tatum later told HSCA investigator Moriarty that he did not see Oswald wearing a brown shirt, just a white t-shirt. 

Probably the closest witness to the shooting was Domingo Benavides, who recalled “the back of his head seemed like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapering off. His hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off."  That kind of rules out brown-shirted Harvey Oswald.

We think LEE Oswald very soon after the Tippit shooting gave Westbrook his wallet (containing a Texas drivers license), his .38 revolver, and his white jacket.

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

John A. makes the case that on the day of the assassination, starting from early morning on,  Lee Oswald was wearing a white shirt and Harvey Oswald (the guy killed by Ruby) was wearing a brown shirt.  As you know, the original police dispatch describing Tippit’s killer was: "Last seen about the 300 block East Jefferson. He's a white male about 30, 5'8", black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." (emphasis added)

Ted Calloway saw the shooter walking south on Patton and described him as a "white male, 27, 5'11", 165 lbs, 

CE 1974 (23H832)

http://https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=893
Pages 861, 863, 866 spanning the times of 1:22PM - 1:33 PM. Suspect is described as 5'8 and slender.

Page 868 Suspect is described by Patrolman H.W. Summers as 5'11 and 165 lbs He said he got his information from an eyewitness. This would be about 1:34 PM.

I wonder if Calloway was his eyewitness.

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

It does sound like Calloway’s description.  The 5’11” height matches Marine Corps records for, we think, American-born Lee Oswald.  On the other hand, a three inch difference in eyewitness descriptions is not a whole lot to go on. 

But that Oswald/Hidell wallet at 10th and Patton had to get there somehow, and I simply don’t believe Ken Croy’s latter-day story that he gave it to Westbrook. John A. and I both believe LEE gave his wallet directly to Westbrook.  (After all, that wallet was highly radioactive after Harvey Oswald's arrest and Lee could hardly use it again.)

Recall also that Fred Moore, who told the FBI that around 8:30 AM he sold Oswald two beers after seeing his drivers license, apparently also told the FBI that this Oswald was wearing a “light shirt” and had a sweater. The light or white shirt description, at least, pretty much matches many of the eyewitness accounts from 10th and Patton.

Also, Steve, you might want to fix your Mary Ferrell link above.  I had to remove “http://” from the start of the url to make it work.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It does sound like Calloway’s description.  The 5’11” height matches Marine Corps records for, we think, American-born Lee Oswald.  On the other hand, a three inch difference in eyewitness descriptions is not a whole lot to go on. 

 

Also, Steve, you might want to fix your Mary Ferrell link above.  I had to remove “http://” from the start of the url to make it work.

Jim,

For me, it's the combination of height, but also the weight difference that makes it suspicious.

How you go from "slender" to 165 lbs is problematic.

DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

The initial description broadcast over the DPD radio was for a suspect 5"10" tall weighing 165 lbs and nobody knows where that description came from.

The broadcast over the Dallas police radio fifteen minutes after JFK was shot was that the unidentified assassin was “5/10, 165 pounds...”

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol23_0438a.htm

“Although confused commentators have claimed that Howard Brennan was the source, it's well documented that an "unidentified citizen" gave the above description to Inspector Sawyer after he saw someone looking like Oswald running from the Book Depository immediately after the assassination. The citizen did not comply with the sheriff's request to come to the office later to fill out a report, and Hoover said that the "sheriff's office can locate no record on this citizen".

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=109

Even after the Warren Report was published, Hoover responded in November, 1964 to general counsel J. Lee Rankin's request that according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 -

Thanks for the heads up about the link. I was using my tablet to post early this morning, and I haven't mastered the art of inserting links yet.

Steve Thomas

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

For me, it's the combination of height, but also the weight difference that makes it suspicious.

How you go from "slender" to 165 lbs is problematic.

Yeah.  Part of the confusion may be because there were probably more people at the Tippit scene than most people realize.  Acquilla Clemens told Mark Lane and Vince Salandria that there were two men involved in the shooting who hurried off in different directions.  On p. 11 of the January 1968 edition of Playboy magazine, a writer indicated that he was a witness to the shooting and that he saw two men leaving the scene in different directions.

Doris Holan from the second floor of her building was in a position to look down the very narrow driveway blocked by Tippit’s car and she said she saw another police car there (we think #207).  Mrs. Holan said she saw a man get out of the squad car and walk toward the dying Tippit. Our bet is that was Capt. Westbrook.

Virginia Davis saw a man cutting across her lawn and throw two empty shell casings onto the ground. She went outside to see what had happened.  When Belin asked her, “Did police come out there?” she answered, “Yes, they was already there.”  We think she saw Ken Croy, at the scene in an impossibly short time.

Multiple players, possible involvement by two cops, just the type of thing to confuse witnesses and scare others away from telling the full story. 

[Steve Thomas]

11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Doris Holan from the second floor of her building was in a position to look down the very narrow driveway blocked by Tippit’s car and she said she saw another police car there (we think #207).  Mrs. Holan said she saw a man get out of the squad car and walk toward the dying Tippit. Our bet is that was Capt. Westbrook.

Jim,

That's a problem I have with the theory of Oswald being diven away from the Theater in Westbrook's car.

if Westbrook is driving a numbered car seen by Earlene Robert's at 1026 N. Beckley, and a numbered car at 10th and Patton, how did Westbrook wind up driving an unmarked car at the Theater?

Steve  Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

That's a problem I have with the theory of Oswald being diven away from the Theater in Westbrook's car.

if Westbrook is driving a numbered car seen by Earlene Robert's at 1026 N. Beckley, and a numbered car at 10th and Patton, how did Westbrook wind up driving an unmarked car at the Theater?

Steve  Thomas

Interesting question!  Here’s a couple of excerpts from John’s write-up on the Westbrook and Croy page of HarveyandLee.net:

Westbrook quickly drove police car #207 back to the Texas School Book Depository, arriving circa 1:18-1:20 PM. In 45 minutes Westbrook had driven car #207 from the Book Depository to Oswald’s rooming house, then to the Texas Theater, then to 10th & Patton, once again to the Texas Theater, and returned to the Book Depository circa 1:20 PM. Westbrook now had to account for his whereabouts during that time, and this is why Westbrook told the WC that he walked from the police station to the Book Depository. When Westbrook returned to the Book Depository it was very important for him to be seen by fellow police officers when reports of the Tippit shooting were broadcast by the police dispatcher.

………………

How would the Dallas police explain two of their officers driving car #207 past the rooming house of the man accused of killing President Kennedy only a half hour earlier? Who were these two police officers? How did they know where HARVEY Oswald was living? Who ordered them to 1026 N. Beckley? Officer Jimmy Valentine had parked car #207 at the Book Depository only 1/2 hour earlier. If Valentine removed the keys to this car, then he would have given the keys to a fellow police officer, and Valentine certainly knew the identity of this officer. But Jimmy Valentine was never investigated nor questioned by anyone. Why not? It was his car that was seen driving past the rooming house of the man accused of killing President Kennedy. Valentine should have been interviewed by DPD internal affairs, the FBI, the Secret Service, and/or the Warren Commission and asked who borrowed his squad car that afternoon. Valentine should have provided a written statement or affidavit as to either the location of car #207 or the officer to whom he gave the keys to car #207 prior to 1:00 PM on 11/22/63. The opportunity to identify and connect the police officers in car #207 with (HARVEY) Oswald was now lost, and I believe was intentionally lost.

To resolve this problem, in other words to “cover-up this problem,” a brief "letter of explanation" was prepared and given to Chief of Police Jesse Curry, who then forwarded this letter to the Warren Commission. This "letter of explanation" claimed that car #207 was parked at the Book Depository all afternoon. But this letter was not written or signed by Officer Jimmy Valentine, or his Sergeant, or his Lieutenant, or his Platoon Commander--Capt. Cecil Talbert. This letter was prepared and signed by the man in charge of the personnel department--Capt. W.R. Westbrook--the man who I believe drove car #207 past Oswald's rooming house with Sgt. Croy, and was seen by housekeeper Earlene Roberts.

After returning from the Tippit murder site Westbrook parked police car #207 at the Book Depository (circa 1:19-1:20 PM). Westbrook took LEE Oswald’s jacket, wallet, the .38 revolver, and got into his personal, unmarked, dark blue police car—the car that Westbrook had driven from police headquarters to the Book Depository a half hour earlier. News reporter Jim Ewell was  in front of the Book Depository when news of the Tippit shooting was broadcast over the police radio. Ewell saw Westbrook and Sgt. Stringer get into an unmarked, dark blue police car. Ewell approached the police car and asked if he could ride with them.