How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[Jim Hargrove]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Talk about ridiculously illogical access.

Then, Sunday morning, Ruby just saunters down a secured entrance ramp into the highly secured DPD parking basement, mingles into the press crowd and wrangles himself into the very front of the line and just feet from the wide open Oswald, all while rubbing elbows with DPD officers William (Blackie ) Harrison and reserve officer Croy?

Thanks for another fascinating post, Joe.

Your sarcasm about the WC’s description of Ruby just sauntering down the crowded and highly secure entrance ramp to the DPD parking basement is well founded.  We think Ruby took an entirely different route, one that was suppressed by the WC because it screamed out that there was at least one other accomplice, namely the “reserve officer” who replaced officers Brock and Worley along the route most likely taken by Ruby through the annex building (attached to City Hall).  We think that reserve officer was Kenneth Croy, the same man who said he was first at the Tippit murder scene and gave the throw-down wallet to Westbrook.

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Biggio may well have called Austin, but Austin already had the information because Jones said they received the call between 1:30 and 2:00 PM.  Is there any evidence that either Stringfellow or Biggio communicated about the Hidell information before 2 PM that day? 

Jim,

Since Oswald wasn't arrested until the 1:40 - 1:50 time frame, it's hard to see how Biggio or Stringfellow could have been calling anyone about the Hidell name before 2:00 PM, unless the Hidell ID came from the wallet found at the shooting scene.

Ausin and San Antonio are two different towns. Fort Sam Houston was in San Antonio. If Biggio was calling Austin, that would probably have been the Texas Department of Public Safety, i. the State Police. Now, either Biggio mis=spoke,. Golz got it wrong, or Biggio/Strinfellow were trying to hide or mask their connection to Military Intelligence (U.S. Army Reserve)

Biggio or Stringfellow going around the local 112th in Dallas is significant, I think.. There's a pipeline of information flow that we don't know anything about.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:55 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Cheers Jim!  Huge piece of work.  Gives a whole new meaning to the term "where there's a Will, there's a way!"

Where there's a Willie there's a way.

 

[Paul Brancato]

Jim and Steve - there is much to unpack, and probably impossible to do so. But some general observations:

first, Lt. Col Jones was dishonest about his position in the 112th, so we know he was capable of dishonesty when needed. All of the detectives of interest in this story were members of retired Army Intelligence units. The reason I asked about Westbrook (and Croy) is I’m wondering if he called Jones directly. Did he know him? For that matter did Stringfellow know him? There is no doubt, is there, that Westbrook and Stringfellow knew each other, because Westbrook was Personnel manager for the Dallas Police Detectives. I’m going from memory so I might slip up. The question is what did Jones have to do with all this? We found out that Jones’s official bio places him in Germany until mid 1963, so whatever his new position was in the 112th it was for only a few months by Nov 22. Ever since I saw that tidbit, and realized he lied about what his title actually was to HSCA (or was it WC), I wondered if his new assignment in Texas was random, or part of some as yet unseen operation. 

The communications bunker at the Fairgrounds - so it appears that this was an official DPD Detective communications center that day at least. Which clearly means that not only were they able to communicate outside of normal police channels, they would also have been able to communicate with Army Intelligence headquarters secretly. The false Oswald description originated there, no? The communications with active Army Intelligence (Jones) likewise. The nexus of Army intelligence, retired Intelligence units, Secret Service, the motorcade planning and execution - all relatively unexplored, and difficult to penetrate because Army Intel has done a bang up job of secrecy, destroying records etc. 

If Nov 22 was a coup, and not a lone nut operation, it seems to me this nexus is fertile ground, and an alternate way of viewing the events of that day, putting the emphasis on Dallas Police Detectives, rather, or at least alongside, the CIA and their Cuban operatives. 

[Steve Thomas]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:03 AM, Paul Brancato said:

The communications bunker at the Fairgrounds - so it appears that this was an official DPD Detective communications center that day at least. Which clearly means that not only were they able to communicate outside of normal police channels, they would also have been able to communicate with Army Intelligence headquarters secretly. The false Oswald description originated there, no? The communications with active Army Intelligence (Jones) likewise. The nexus of Army intelligence, retired Intelligence units, Secret Service, the motorcade planning and execution - all relatively unexplored, and difficult to penetrate because Army Intel has done a bang up job of secrecy, destroying records etc. 

 

deleted

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

All of the detectives of interest in this story were members of retired Army Intelligence units.

At least some U.S. Army personnel surely had, at the very least, foreknowledge of the assassination.  How else was 30-year-army veteran Stuart L. Reed able to take the remarkable set of photos showing the Book Depository, Bus 1213, and even Oswald’s arrest at the Texas Theater.  No one from the WC or the FBI had the slightest interest in questioning Reed, clearly indicating they knew Reed knew too much.

[Ron Bulman]

On 4/1/2022 at 7:14 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for another fascinating post, Joe.

Your sarcasm about the WC’s description of Ruby just sauntering down the crowded and highly secure entrance ramp to the DPD parking basement is well founded.  We think Ruby took an entirely different route, one that was suppressed by the WC because it screamed out that there was at least one other accomplice, namely the “reserve officer” who replaced officers Brock and Worley along the route most likely taken by Ruby through the annex building (attached to City Hall).  We think that reserve officer was Kenneth Croy, the same man who said he was first at the Tippit murder scene and gave the throw-down wallet to Westbrook.

Hi Jim.  The entrance route seems the most logical since you posted this a while back.  Important evidence.  I've never believed  Ruby's down the ramp story.  The officer guarding the narrow access was emphatic, with witnesses as I recall and passed a lie detector test?  While Patrick Dean, in charge of basement security did not.  Though allowed to choose his own questions in advance.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Jim Hargrove]

Ron--Dean may have made an honest mistake about how Ruby arrived at the kill spot, but he then may have compounded it by saying that Ruby said he walked down the ramp, which, apparently, no one else heard.  Burt Griffin clearly didn’t believe him.

It’s kind of hard to illustrate, but John and David used this graphic to try and show how little Dean could see of the ramp from Main St.
 

[Ron Bulman]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron--Dean may have made an honest mistake about how Ruby arrived at the kill spot, but he then may have compounded it by saying that Ruby said he walked down the ramp, which, apparently, no one else heard.  Burt Griffin clearly didn’t believe him.

It’s kind of hard to illustrate, but John and David used this graphic to try and show how little Dean could see of the ramp from Main St.
 

It's an excellent diagram.  Both of them should be on the cover of the NYT and WaPo along with an expose on Dean and Ruby's entrance. 

Wouldn't Dean, in charge of basement security quite likely have been involved in the movement of officers Worley, Brock, and (volunteer?) Sgt Croy?

Isn't Dean the one who got into a squabble with Burt Griffin (?) of the Warren Commission.  Griffin accused him of lying, he went back to Dallas and complained.  Griffin was reprimanded/marginalized?  Again, Dean failed a lie detector test, he got to choose the questions for?  An honest mistake?  All from memory, please correct me. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

It's an excellent diagram.  Both of them should be on the cover of the NYT and WaPo along with an expose on Dean and Ruby's entrance. 

Wouldn't Dean, in charge of basement security quite likely have been involved in the movement of officers Worley, Brock, and (volunteer?) Sgt Croy?

Isn't Dean the one who got into a squabble with Burt Griffin (?) of the Warren Commission.  Griffin accused him of lying, he went back to Dallas and complained.  Griffin was reprimanded/marginalized?  Again, Dean failed a lie detector test, he got to choose the questions for?  An honest mistake?  All from memory, please correct me. 

From John and David’s article, and some quick online checking, it looks like everything you say about Dean is accurate, though I’m not sure if he was responsible for re-assigning Worley and Brock away from the route Ruby probably took through the building.  That’s a critical question that may not be answerable.  The case can be made that, as director of DPD personnel, Westbrook was in a position to re-assign Worley and Brock.  Sure wish we could find out who re-assigned them.

I’m still most suspicious of Westbrook, Croy, and probably Fritz.  We know that Westbrook and Croy were at 10th and Patton and handled the throw-down wallet there, and that both stayed silent about that fact for decades. Westbrook was apparently at the headquarters building but not in Fritz’s office while LHO was being held awaiting Ruby’s arrival, so he (Westbrook) certainly could have walked to the east side of the Annex building where he could look out the windows and watch Ruby approaching from the Western Union office.  And there is all that photographic evidence of Croy arriving at the spot where Oswald was killed just milliseconds ahead of Ruby.  The case against both these cops is pretty strong, at least imho.

If memory serves, Steve Thomas is also suspicious of Sgt. H.H. Stringer because of some bad information he submitted, including an indication that Oswald had been in Cuba.  But since Hoover said the same thing to LBJ immediately after the assassination, this may have been a reference to another LHO.  What for me rules out Stringer as a member of the conspiracy is the fact that he reported that LHO had been arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.  Had he been part of the plot against Oswald, I doubt that would have been allowed to happen.
 

[Steve Thomas]

16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

If memory serves, Steve Thomas is also suspicious of Sgt. H.H. Stringer because of some bad information he submitted, including an indication that Oswald had been in Cuba.  But since Hoover said the same thing to LBJ immediately after the assassination, this may have been a reference to another LHO.  What for me rules out Stringer as a member of the conspiracy is the fact that he reported that LHO had been arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.  Had he been part of the plot against Oswald, I doubt that would have been allowed to happen.
 

Jim,

My prior suspicions were not about Sgt. H.H. Stringer, but of Detective Stringfellow.

Here's a copy of Stringer's after-action report on his participation in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340414/m1/1/?q=H.H. Stringer

It was Stringfellow who reported that Oswald had been arrested in the balcony, which is odd, because Stringfellow wasn't even there.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337707/?q=Stringfellow

According to the 1961 Dallas City Directory, City Detective, Leonard D. Stringfellow (married to Berniece) lived at 7530 Rosemont Rd.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/1898/?q=Stringfellow

Steve Thomas

Edited April 6, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:39 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Who is the person with the white cowboy hat ( only person wearing one in the entire crowd picture )  red tie and dark grey suit just beyond the passenger door of the DPD car in the foreground?

Odd, kind of creepy looking. Staring at the picture taker instead of the Oswald car loading scuffle?

Is he from the DPD white hat wearing detective bureau?

It's not Fritz himself.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

My prior suspicions were not about Sgt. H.H. Stringer, but of Detective Stringfellow.

Here's a copy of Stringer's after-action report on his participation in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340414/m1/1/?q=H.H. Stringer

It was Stringfellow who reported that Oswald had been arrested in the balcony, which is odd, because Stringfellow wasn't even there.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337707/?q=Stringfellow

According to the 1961 Dallas City Directory, City Detective, Leonard D. Stringfellow (married to Berniece) lived at 7530 Rosemont Rd.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/1898/?q=Stringfellow

Steve Thomas

Ah, I must be getting old….  I was trying to remember Stringfellow’s name and then looked up the names of DPD cops in 1963 and found H.H. Stringer and erroneously used his name.  My mistake, and thanks for the correction!  Everything I wrote above about Stringer above should have been attributed to Stringfellow.

Interesting in Stringfellow’s report to Curry is that he talked about the activities behind the theater around the time LHO was arrested.  Sure sounds similar to descriptions by Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire about an Oswald look-alike being escorted out the back door of the theater.

As I’m sure you recall, the official Homicide Report on J.D. Tippit also says Oswald was arrested in the balcony.  Something happened there.  In 2007 Burroughs told author Jim Douglass that the second man he saw arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something."

Weren’t you also suspicious of indications that Stringfellow reported that LHO had been to Cuba?  If so, can you re-post a link to the document?
 

[Steve Thomas]

57 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Weren’t you also suspicious of indications that Stringfellow reported that LHO had been to Cuba?  If so, can you re-post a link to the document?
 

Jim,

You can find it in two places:

https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf

See the local pdf file for this

Stringfellow cable.pdf

It's in the Weisberg Collection.

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

The cable is mostly focused on the FPCC.

Stringfellow appears on page 3. It mis-identfies him as as Assistant Chief, and calls him Don Stringfellow.

Steve Thomas

 

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

You can find it in two places:

https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf

See the local pdf file for this

Stringfellow cable.pdf

It's in the Weisberg Collection.

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

The cable is mostly focused on the FPCC.

Stringfellow appears on page 3. It mis-identfies him as as Assistant Chief, and calls him Don Stringfellow.

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve.  There’s a lot of misinformation tucked into one short paragraph there.  You have to wonder how much is courtesy of the U.S. Army and how much is from Stringfellow.  

As always on this LHO/commie stuff, you have to wonder how much is produced to get on the “let’s blame Castro” bandwagon immediately after the assassination and how much has some real biographical significance.  Hoover did tell Johnson hours after the assassination that LHO had been to Cuba several times.

Interesting too that the Army document gives a physical description of “Oswald, Harvey Lee” is identical to the physical description of “Lee Henry Oswald” in the infamous CIA cable of October 10, 1963 (see below).  Most references to LHO’s height are either 5’ 9” or 5’ 11”; very few docs list his height at 5’ 10.

Also, John Armstrong will be on Black Op Radio this evening (April 7) reading from the subject article of this thread.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by Jim Hargrove