How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[Steven Kossor]

Destiny Betrayed is a marvelous effort, but it's not a sacred telling of truth because it leaves some things out entirely because they would be difficult to describe/defend/explain/integrate into the established narrative.  Nice effort; worthy of an "A" but not an "A++" as it seems some would score it.

[Ron Bulman]

9 minutes ago, Steven Kossor said:

Destiny Betrayed is a marvelous effort, but it's not a sacred telling of truth because it leaves some things out entirely because they would be difficult to describe/defend/explain/integrate into the established narrative.  Nice effort; worthy of an "A" but not an "A++" as it seems some would score it.

Compared to anything previously?  An A+.  Nice effort?  Exceptional by all involved.  Do I have further questions?  Do you, yes.  

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - so many links - could you explain more about the after action reports of 5 officers? You quote briefly testimony by 3 other detectives. In a previous post you quote Officer Carroll’s testimony. Are you saying that several other officers wrote after action reports that support Carroll’s testimony?
The reporter in question gave a very thorough account of his movements and observations. 

Paul,

Here's a copy of K.E. Lyon's after-action report 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338850/m1/1/?q=K.E. Lyon

Here's Paul Bentley's Report:
http://https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339831/m1/1/?q=Paul Bentley

Here's C.T Walker's:

http://https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339108/m1/1/?q=C. T. Walker

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Thanks for doing all the digging, but I’ve clicked on all your links and, unless I’m missing something, can’t find direct corroboration of Carroll’s statement about the car.  I think Carroll was driving Wesbtbrook’s car from the theater to police headquarters.  At one point Carroll, identified that car as “police equipment #226” but I haven’t been able to dig up the doc yet.

At any rate, even if a whole squad of DPD personnel swore it was some other car than Westbrook’s parked in front of the theater, I’d be inclined to believe Jim Ewell’s account.  After all, a number of Dallas cops, including Westbrook, Bud Owens, Capt. Doughty and probably Ken Croy as well as FBI SA Bob Barrett had, in full view of WFAA-TV’s news camera, just examined the Oswald/Hidell throw-down wallet at 10th and Patton. It took more than three decades for the rest of us to find out about it.

Talk about a “blue wall of silence,” the DPD had it going in spades over the Kennedy case.

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I think that some readers will just take your word for conclusions made about the diagrams, while others will want to study the diagrams for themselves. (I belong to the latter camp.)

I think that the ideal solution would be to place the phrase "View enlarged image in new browser tab" immediately below the image. That phrase links to the enlarged image. You could also place the phrase "Use Ctrl +/- to zoom in/out" just below the enlarged image for those who are unfamiliar with that browser feature.

 

Hi, Sandy,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'll look into this.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Thanks for doing all the digging, but I’ve clicked on all your links and, unless I’m missing something, can’t find direct corroboration of Carroll’s statement about the car.  I think Carroll was driving Wesbtbrook’s car from the theater to police headquarters.  At one point Carroll, identified that car as “police equipment #226” but I haven’t been able to dig up the doc yet.

At any rate, even if a whole squad of DPD personnel swore it was some other car than Westbrook’s parked in front of the theater, I’d be inclined to believe Jim Ewell’s account.  After all, a number of Dallas cops, including Westbrook, Bud Owens, Capt. Doughty and probably Ken Croy as well as FBI SA Bob Barrett had, in full view of WFAA-TV’s news camera, just examined the Oswald/Hidell throw-down wallet at 10th and Patton. It took more than three decades for the rest of us to find out about it.

Talk about a “blue wall of silence,” the DPD had it going in spades over the Kennedy case.

Jim,

I guess I just don't understand. Here are some snippets from Westbrook's and Carroll's accounts.

I will say this. Everybody who participated in Oswald's arrest gathered together in Westbrook's office afterwards to compare notes and write up a sort of joint report. I've always been suspicious of that. I would have preferred that they got isolated and wrote down their individual recollections.

- William Westbrook -

I sat around a while really not knowing what to do because of the--almost all of the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository Building,

one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer killed in Oak Cliff.
Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman---I don't recall his name---then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed.

Mr. BALL. Where was your car parked at that time?
Mr. WESTBROOK. It wasn't my car--we didn't have one. I don't know where this officer went after he let us out at the scene.
Mr. BALL. An officer drove you down to the scene?
Mr. WESTBROOK. An officer drove us to the scene.

Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, and I don't know what officer was driving this one,

Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or three at the back.

- Bob Carroll -

I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.
Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?
Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.
Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?
Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five blocks away - I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us.

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The stats fit me is why, except it took 50 years to lose those 2 inches.  I'll make a copy of this chart.

It doesn't mean much at all.  I wall 5'11 when I went into the service and I am now 5'9 from old age.  It took a long time to do that.  I recall measuring height in my 30's with kids at school and was still 5'11.  Old age and arthritis has taken its toll.  

The idea that Oswald was 5'11 at 17 years and shrunk to 5'9 at 24 years just doesn't work.  You might get 5'10 out of 5'11 if someone remeasured at 5'10 and something like 3/4 of an inch and then reported it as 5/10 rather then include the partial inch.  That kind of measurement could come from simply slumping.

However, that's just speculation.  

[John Butler]

Just as a matter of curiosity.  Does anyone know what the object is on Oswald's body running from his left shoulder to under his right arm?  It doesn't appear to be shirt.

He comes out of the door of the Texas Theatre without it.  And, just before entering the vehicle he seems to have lost his shirt and acquired some sort of restraint.   Any opinions?   

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Ahhh.  I finally understand what you were saying about height and age.  Neither one of us think Oswald would have shrunk that much in so short a time, and I don’t think he would indicate voluntarily he was two inches shorter than he was measured in the USMC.  

At the theater, could that dark object around Oswald be a policeman’s arm?  It seems pretty narrow, but I can’t think of anything else.

Steve,

We think Westbrook was instrumental in framing Oswald for the murder of Tippit and JFK and was trying to hide his involvement in the case, especially his likely early appearance (before Tippit was shot) at 10th  and Patton. To start covering his tracks, Westbrook told the WC that he couldn’t find a car and had to walk a mile from Police Headquarters to the Book Depository.  Do we seriously believe Capt. Westbrook had no access to a car?  To read about what we really think Westbrook was doing, click here.

I think Carroll was just covering for him and probably was unaware of the full details.  I’m going with Jim Ewell’s account unless there is other evidence against it.  We may just have to agree to disagree, though I always appreciate your efforts here.

[Richard Price]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Does anyone know what the object is on Oswald's body running from his left shoulder to under his right arm?

John, I saw the same thing and wondered what it was.  I think I have figured it out.  It appears to be the officer's cap that is on LHO's right side.  There is another picture that shows it apparently falling or being pushed off during the struggle.  You will note that the officer has the hat on in the initial photo and does not at this later time.  I think this is the interim photo showing the officer either trying to cover Oswald's face or attempting to grab his hat back.

 

interim photo

[John Butler]

19 hours ago, Richard Price said:

John, I saw the same thing and wondered what it was.  I think I have figured it out.  It appears to be the officer's cap that is on LHO's right side.

Richard,

I don't think anyone will come up with a better explanation.  Thanks for your insight.  It is a hand and policeman's hat.  

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Neither one of us think Oswald would have shrunk that much in so short a time, and I don’t think he would indicate voluntarily he was two inches shorter than he was measured in the USMC.  

JIm,

Too true.  You might give some sympathy to a 5'10/5'11 difference and think it might be a measuring error.  But, not in military records.  As I said earlier that height measurement is part of a graves registration identification and used to identify a person.

[Steve Thomas]

deleted

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Appreciate all your digging here, but Dallas Morning News reporter Jim Ewell said that he jumped into the car with Westbrook and Stringer and, “when we arrived at the Texas Theatre, we parked right in front and everybody jumped out and went into the lobby.”

Ewell also wrote that, after the theater arrest, “Oswald then took my place in the backseat of the same car that I arrived in. So when they left with him, I stood there, stranded. I then hitchhiked a ride with a man in a pickup truck.”

C.T. Walker’s car may well have been parked behind the theater as the dispatch tape indicates, but that’s not the car Ewell said they arrived in.

To be blunt, I don’t necessarily believe anything the Dallas Police say, either individually or collectively.  Why did none of them immediately recognize the Hidell ID when Oswald’s wallet was examined in the car?  Why did it take days (weeks?) for these guys to start to remember seeing it?

Why did none of them talk about the 10th and Patton throw-down wallet, even though WFFA’s Ron Reiland filmed it?  The answer is pretty obvious, eh?  If LHO was framed for the Tippit murder, wouldn’t the next question be, Was he also framed for JFK’s murder.

Just my opinion, but I think the throw-down wallet is the key to this entire case.

[Ron Bulman]

The Westbrook and Croy article linked by Jim on the first page of this thread kind of goes hand in hand with the featured article of the thread in that it illustrates Westbrook lied to the Warren Commission and was actively involved in the set up of Oswald.  The kicker for me was saying he walked from the DPD offices to the TSBD, because there were no cars available (when he had and unmarked car assigned to him).  Then he says, while still at the TSBD, when told of an officer being shot in Oak Cliff, he ran to His radio.  In His car.  

If the WC was a trial the defense would have had a field day with him.  I can see Mark Lane saying, Wait a minute.  So you walked to the TSBD.  Then you ran to your radio, in your assigned un marked car . . . back at DPD HQ, where it or any other police cars were not available, which is why you walked to the TSBD.

I don't think you can believe a word of anything Westbrook said at any point, and, he was involved up to his ears.

I do think he was in his own car, with the wallet "found" at the Tippit murder scene in his pocket when he left the DPD HQ.