My 2 part dissection of CNN's apologia for LBJ

[Pete Mellor]

16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

WTF?  LOL

Just curious Pete... would you ever suggest to someone that it might be time they see a plastic surgeon?

 

Sandy, just advising against a coronary! 🚑

[Sean Coleman]

…red wine with chicken bothers me more…

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

…red wine with chicken bothers me more…

That looks more like a shot glass in Olivers left hand than a wine glass.  Given the state of the dishes, maybe an after dinner nip of Cognac?  Although it's hard to tell, looking through the glass in it the liquid looks clear.

[Sean Coleman]

18 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

That looks more like a shot glass in Olivers left hand than a wine glass.  Given the state of the dishes, maybe an after dinner nip of Cognac?  Although it's hard to tell, looking through the glass in it the liquid looks clear.

Looks like burritos washed down with a tasteful Cabernet Sauvignon followed by a shot of tequila…..repeat till fade

Oh how the other half lives, I didn’t see a pomegranate till I was 32

[James DiEugenio]

This was from a dinner that Brian Edwards bought for Oliver and me when we were shooting the film in Georgetown.

Oliver was in rare form that night.

[Ron Bulman]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Robert Caro?

I don't think so.  I looked at his LBJ books on amazon and I don't think I've ever read any of them.  I did note one comment about him glossing over some of LBJ's not so admirable traits.

I think the Lyin Lyndon bit may have come from Philip Nelson's Mastermind.  I didn't think it worth buying because of the premise in the title.  But I came across it on a shelf in the library at the University where I worked and checked it out to look through.  Some good background and personality info on LBJ in it but it didn't come close to convincing me LBJ was behind it all.

Now that I think about it the Lynin Lyndon thing went a little deeper if I remember right.  Seems like he had also managed to become class president, but he did so by somehow rigging the election.  I don't remember the details but the experience served him well later on when he earned the name Landslide Lyndon.

I guess Nelson's book is where I read the following as well.  About being a teenager or pre-teen going to a nearby stock tank to go swimming.  When he got there some black kids were already doing so and he didn't want to share the swimming hole with them.  So he started chunking rocks at them to run them off.   Then there were stories about him repeatedly berating and belittling his assistants, secretaries and others in front of others over trivial matters to demean them.  Multiple infidelities.  Bragging about his own manhood.  And more.  Like supposedly late one evening at his ranch instead of going to the bathroom he stepped out the door to take a leak off the porch.  Turning to say something to the Secret Service Agent guarding the door he kept on pissing, on the guy's shoes.  I think that one came from the SSA, not sure how well documented the other stories are.  If I had the book I'd check.  

[James DiEugenio]

Sounds like Nelson then.

BTW in my article, is that not a great line by Dean Acheson, after he walked out of the White House after a Pentagon briefing and LBJ shouting.

"Shove Vietnam up your ass!" 

LOL, ROTF. 😂

And Acheson was noted for being conservative.  He then said he would not listen to anymore of these canned Pentagon speeches and finished reports.

In other words: it took until 1968, and untold death and destruction. for Johnson to comprehend about Indochina what JFK did back in 1961. (Probably earlier. Thanks to Gullion.)

[W. Niederhut]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sounds like Nelson then.

BTW in my article, is that not a great line by Dean Acheson, after he walked out of the White House after a Pentagon briefing and LBJ shouting.

"Shove Vietnam up your ass!" 

LOL, ROTF. 😂

And Acheson was noted for being conservative.  He then said he would not listen to anymore of these canned Pentagon speeches and finished reports.

In other words: it took until 1968, and untold death and destruction. for Johnson to comprehend about Indochina what JFK did back in 1961. (Probably earlier. Thanks to Gullion.)

And another four years (and millions more indigenous Southeast Asian casualties) for Nixon to comprehend that JFK was correct all along.

BTW, Nelson also mentioned that December 1963 LBJ quote in LBJ-- From Mastermind to Colossus, sourcing it to Karnow's Vietnam-- A History.

[Ron Bulman]

I have to wonder from things I've read lately if LBJ didn't realize it wasn't winnable from the start but had to do what he had to do.  Then Nixon sabotaged the peace talks to get elected, and kept the war going another five years to get re elected.  He too knew it wasn't winnable from the start.  Jmo

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

Yes we know that RMN knew it was not winnable.  He actually said this once. i think its in my four parter on Novick and Burns.

But he was trying to get a Korea style settlement, knowing it would not last.  Just to get his Peace with Honor.

But did you notice the difference between LBJ and RMN? Johnson would not invade Cambodia and Laos.  Nixon did. With disastrous results for Cambodia. And OMG what RMN did in the air war over Laos was a disgrace I thought.  Few people know that Nixon actually dropped more bomb tonnage over Indochina than LBJ did. Even Steve Ambrose thought that, when it came to Vietnam, Nixon was a bit unhinged.

This is why I got angry with Buzzanco when he tried to compare what Kennedy did in Vietnam with what Nixon did.  First, Kennedy was pulling out advisors not combat troops because he refused to commit combat troops.  Secondly, Kennedy did not bomb Laos or Cambodia.  Third Kennedy would not have invaded either country.

And here is the worst part.   Many have stated, like Theodore Draper, that the settlement Nixon got in 1973, differed little from what he could have had in 1969. 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, I think Joe McBride notes this in his book on the media, but I also noted it lightly above.

Its really too bad that Richard Russell got tagged with that Southern Manifesto moniker.

Because man was he right about Vietnam or what?

I mean he made no bones about it.  He said it was like pouring money down a rathole.  And it was going to be one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

Whew.  But note how he qualified his criticism.  Because he did not want to go up against the president so he more or less shut up. And BTW it was not just for his bud LBJ, he also shut up under Ike.

I agree with his insights, he had it nailed.  But man not to even score the president of your opposition party?  And that would have done some good in the early days.

[W. Niederhut]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, I think Joe McBride notes this in his book on the media, but I also noted it lightly above.

Its really too bad that Richard Russell got tagged with that Southern Manifesto moniker.

Because man was he right about Vietnam or what?

I mean he made no bones about it.  He said it was like pouring money down a rathole.  And it was going to be one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

Whew.  But note how he qualified his criticism.  Because he did not want to go up against the president so he more or less shut up. And BTW it was not just for his bud LBJ, he also shut up under Ike.

I agree with his insights, he had it nailed.  But man not to even score the president of your opposition party?  And that would have done some good in the early days.

        At the same time, if I recall correctly, Richard Russell was also involved in the Dixiecrat break with LBJ and the Democratic Party over the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

       The exodus of the Dixiecrats over Civil Rights was, obviously, a major factor in the dissolution of the Democratic Party after 1964, (along with issue of Vietnam.)

       Under the circumstances, it amazes me that the old U.S. Senate office building was named for Richard Russell in 1972.

[James DiEugenio]

Yes that is true.

The whole complete break up was really initiated by the Kennedys due to the showdowns at Ole Miss and Alabama.  

Wallace really forced the issue in the latter.  Contrary to popular belief, that whole affair was not settled until that morning.  Because Wallace would not talk to RFK or JFK.  In fact, his conversation with JFK was pretty heated.  Andrew Cohen, in his book Two Days in June, shows that Wallace and Katzenbach settled on the issue that morning.  Wallace would get his photo op and the students would be admitted.

But I think although  Russell was terribly misguided on race, he is due a bit of credit for being correct on Vietnam and the Warren Commission. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Joseph McBride]

CRISIS: BEHIND A PRESIDENTIAL COMMITMENT is a superb

documentary about the integration of the University of Alabama

and shows that Kabuki dance between Wallace and Katzenbach/JFK/RFK

without spelling it out in explicit verbal language.

[James DiEugenio]

I agree that the film is good.

If you watch it carefully, you will see that Robert Kennedy is trying to find a way to jam the students through a side door at the main entrance at that late date.

The reason I think that Wallace and Nick K settled that morning was because of Ole Miss.

I also think this is why the media was disappointed.

They missed the blood and violence and death at Ole Miss. Which is why they were out en masse this time.  When Wallace finally agreed to a deal, they were disappointed.  Can you imagine that?  Nobody got killed so they didn't like it.  But really Wallace was plainly outgunned.  JFK learned from Ole Miss.  He was really mad that Abrams did not get the troops there fast enough and allowed the riot to get out of control. 

So he had about 3,000 troops and guardsmen there in advance. He outnumbered Wallace 3-1.