David Lifton on the Brent Holland Show 12/12/2021

[Micah Mileto]

 

A podcast I overlooked with David Lifton giving more details on Final Charade.

Some points discussed:

 

- One version of the body alteration conspiracy would have involved the injured President being driven to a location where he could be transferred to an Ambulance, in which the bullets could be removed in private under the guise of emergency procedures. But, this plan was thwarted by John Connally also being unintentionally shot, which may have lead to Jackie or Nellie insisting that they all stay in the Limousine and drive straight to the Hospital.

 

- Connally was shot in the chest from the front, and a fake entry wound was created in Connally's back, and 6 inches of Connally's rib was surgically removed, and that is what Dr. Shaw meant when he said that "6 inches of Connally's rib was missing".

 

And, the most intriguing bit of speculation...

 

- The shooters were assigned to "escape" in a train car, that moved away shortly after the shooting. But, there were other assassins who climbed on top of the train car to murder the Presidential assassins by gassing them like the holocaust gas chambers.The evidence for this was a witness who claimed to have seen two people who were sitting on top of a train car, and photographic evidence that the train car moved.

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Micah Mileto

[Michael Crane]

Darn Final Charade is taking as long as Best Evidence.I sincerely hope that David gets the funding he needs.

[Benjamin Cole]

19 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

 

A podcast I overlooked with David Lifton giving more details on Final Charade.

Some points discussed:

 

- One version of the body alteration conspiracy would have involved the injured President being driven to a location where he could be transferred to an Ambulance, in which the bullets could be removed in private under the guise of emergency procedures. But, this plan was thwarted by John Connally also being unintentionally shot, which may have lead to Jackie or Nellie insisting that they all stay in the Limousine and drive straight to the Hospital.

 

- Connally was shot in the chest from the front, and a fake entry wound was created in Connally's back, and 6 inches of Connally's rib was surgically removed, and that is what Dr. Shaw meant when he said that "6 inches of Connally's rib was missing".

 

And, the most intriguing bit of speculation...

 

- The shooters were assigned to "escape" in a train car, that moved away shortly after the shooting. But, there were other assassins who climbed on top of the train car to murder the Presidential assassins by gassing them like the holocaust gas chambers.The evidence for this was a witness who claimed to have seen two people who were sitting on top of a train car, and photographic evidence that the train car moved.

 

"Connally was shot in the chest from the front, and a fake entry wound was created in Connally's back, and 6 inches of Connally's rib was surgically removed, and that is what Dr. Shaw meant when he said that "6 inches of Connally's rib was missing"--credited to Lifton. 

---30---

Really. You know a very good and credible surgeon, who challenged Warren Commission orthodoxy on many points, Robert Shaw, operated on Connally. 

Connally (and all witnesses, including Shaw) say he was shot from the rear. Connally (and all witnesses) consistently stated he was shot from behind and by a separate bullet from the ones that struck JFK. 

Connally at HSBC:

"I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"

This happens at about Z-frame 295, or about one second before the head shot to JFK at Z-313. There is no doubt that Connally was pushed forward. 

What is sad about all this is that nearly incontrovertible evidence of a second gunman is plain to see in the Z film. The sequence of shots. The one second that separates Z-295 from Z-313. 

Unfortunately, the JFKA research community often goes deep into the weeds, and the wrong weeds at that. 

How the HSCA missed this elementary fact about the Z film is mysterious, except perhaps they did not have the digitization we have today, and we can see frame by frame (yes, they had stills, but also Blakey seemed to stipulate to certain facts as a condition of getting the job).

I wish the JFKA research community would pursue and promote aspects of the JFKA that are very solid. 

 

 

[Guest]

Thanks for sharing @Micah Mileto. It was an enjoyable listen. I found some of the theory very logical. 

[Adam Johnson]

Mr. David Lifton,

Interesting stuff, evidence will be key to these new theories of what was to happen that day and the fluid moves made by the conspirators to maintain the original plot outcome.

With all the moving parts required to pull off the original plan and then the adjusted plan my question without reading the book will be:

"Who had the authority and power to make the original plan work(placement of people and equipment), and who had the power and authority to make adjustments on the fly(no pun intended) to see the plot thru after it didnt go to plan regards the shooting and hospital in Dallas"?

Will you name names as to which groups or individuals you believe at the conclusion of over 40 years work on the case...had that power and used their authority to facilitate an American coup d'état....????

 

I have always had a lingering doubt regarding Lee Oswald just waiting in the lunch room while the president of his country and his beautiful wife were driving by 20-30m away just outside his work.....for such a political idealist as Oswald portrayed himself to be, a man who read of alternatives to democracy and served in his countries military,  who perhaps was a government agent/asset or longed to be one...i just cannot understand why he would not want to lay his own eyes on his commander and chief....even if just to be able to say "Oh I've seen the president up close, he looked at me i looked at him or some bullshit" i just have to think there is no way Oswald was not looking out a window as the Kennedy's approached or drove by.....he was either looking at them from the 6th floor or the 2nd, 3rd or 1st somehow someway......i honestly cannot fathom that with his ideology and military background he wouldn't want to see the president of the United States with his own eyes.....just a personal thought!

Regards from Australia, 

AJ.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

I have always had a lingering doubt regarding Lee Oswald just waiting in the lunch room while the president of his country and his beautiful wife were driving by 20-30m away just outside his work

 

You know, don't you Adam, that Oswald's alibi was that he was standing out front with Bill Shelly when the president went by?

That was covered up but suspected by some, myself included.

And then a few years ago a note written by one of Oswald's interrogators was found (by Malcolm Blunt) where he wrote that Oswald said in his interrogation that he was out in front during the presidential parade.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Sandy,

Yep I'm aware of the statement he made about being out front watching the parade(it may have been in Hosty's or Bookhout's notes) but not a single colleague of LHO ever said he was downstairs outside prior to the shooting or during the shooting.... no one witnessed him walk back inside and make his way upstairs to the lunch room....so zero proof his " i was outside watching the parade" was ever corroborated in 50 plus years.

Maybe he was looking out a 1st, 2nd or 3rd floor window which allowed him to get to the lunch room in time for truly and baker to walk in on him.....but i cant believe he was just sitting in that room alone prior to or as the president passed by 501 Elm street. Maybe he can be spotted peering out a lower floor window one day if more images or film turns up?

Personally i dont think he fired from the 6th floor that day, or if he did it was 1 shot only and he missed on purpose, then bolted down stairs...

Also i do not believe LHO is prayer man. I think the person in the doorway is a woman.

Regards AJ

[David Lifton]

On 4/22/2022 at 10:20 PM, Micah Mileto said:

 

A podcast I overlooked with David Lifton giving more details on Final Charade.

Some points discussed:

 

- One version of the body alteration conspiracy would have involved the injured President being driven to a location where he could be transferred to an Ambulance, in which the bullets could be removed in private under the guise of emergency procedures. But, this plan was thwarted by John Connally also being unintentionally shot, which may have lead to Jackie or Nellie insisting that they all stay in the Limousine and drive straight to the Hospital.

 

- Connally was shot in the chest from the front, and a fake entry wound was created in Connally's back, and 6 inches of Connally's rib was surgically removed, and that is what Dr. Shaw meant when he said that "6 inches of Connally's rib was missing".

 

And, the most intriguing bit of speculation...

 

- The shooters were assigned to "escape" in a train car, that moved away shortly after the shooting. But, there were other assassins who climbed on top of the train car to murder the Presidential assassins by gassing them like the holocaust gas chambers.The evidence for this was a witness who claimed to have seen two people who were sitting on top of a train car, and photographic evidence that the train car moved.

 

Hi Micah: 

Here are my recollections about the source of my info about the shooters and the train: the Willis Slides, the Bond slides, the Bell Film, plus audio from the National Archives.  Back around 1971, I spent a week (at least) in Washington, D.C., at the National Archives, wearing a headset, and going through all of what NARA called the  "Dallas Radio Tapes" --every single one of them.  The tapes had been collected from all the Dallas radio stations by the Secret Service, shortly after President Kennedy's murder.  They were then brought to an Air Force Base in Oklahoma, where a team of military people listened to each one, and listed the contents. (Transcripts may have been made; I worked off the actual “lists of contents".)  The result -- a document several hundred pages in length -- appeared as one entry on a list of Warren Commission Documents (listing about 1500 items, officially called "List of Basic Source Materials.")  

Around 1971, I went to Washington, D.C., and made it a project to review this entire tape collection. Two reel to reel tape decks were necessary: one was provided by NARA; I rented the other (a SONY 560, as I recall).  One by one I reviewed the tapes, typing notes using a portable typewriter (back then, there were no personal computers ). Basically, I was looking for any "needle in the haystack" that might be helpful to my ongoing study of the JFK case.  I found a number of things of interest, but one stood out above all the others.  Let me give it a name, for the purpose of this post on the London Education Forum: "The Train and the Police."

 

One of those tapes had the account of a Dallas newsman (Robert MacNeil, I believe). The witness  immediately left the press bus and ran up the knoll to the area where the west end of the wooden fence met the Triple Underpass. Very excitedly, he (MacNeil, I believe) related what he had seen: "The police were running aboard a train!" he exclaimed-- again, this is just minutes after the shooting, and MacNeil was phoning in a report --to his network in New York -- from a phone at the TSBD.   Unfortunately, I'm writing this from memory, but I spent days reviewing this audio taped material, wearing a headset, and with two high quality reel-to-reel tape recorders in front of me --one supplied by NARA (to play the original tapes); the other, a rental, so I could make copies of selected audio excerpts, as necessary.  Also, I typed up partial transcripts, as necessary.

As already stated, o execute this project, I worked out of the office of a top official at NARA.  Re the two high quality tape recorders: one was supplied by NARA; the other, a SONY tape deck that I rented.  This project took one or two weeks (at least) working 9 to 5; and by the end, I knew that I had a complete audio record of anything of significance that was on the Dallas "radio station tapes".

MY APPROACH

FWIW: My entire approach -- once I learned about this audio collection -- was motivated by the realization that the Secret Service (for some reason) had gone to the trouble of collecting all these audio tapes within weeks JFK's murder. That, in itself, was very interesting, because I don't believe this project was known to the Warren Commission. But the tapes had been carefully collected, and sent to an Air Force Base in Oklahoma for duplication.  Then, several military people were assigned the job of listening to each and every tape, and producing a written inventory of its contents. (Again: Not a transcript, just an  inventory; a topical listing of the contents of each tape.)  This was one huge project, and struck me as something that must have been ordered by someone who wanted to make sure that the entire Dallas audio record — i.e., the “public” audio record— had been checked, to see what was there (i.e., "out there"), so that there would never be any “surprises.”  Finally, the results of this entire project had been stored at NARA, "for history", but never given to the Warren Commission (as far as I could tell) which again, and  in itself, was weird. 

By the time I left Washington --and this was the same trip, as I recall, where I spent about two hours interviewing SS Agent William Greer, at his home-- I knew I had something unusual, and possibly significant. 

THE IMPLICATIONS

The whole business of "police running aboard a train" (which then pulled out) was obviously important.  It meant (a) that the assassins (or their "security detail," as I came to view these people) were dressed as police;  and (b) that their egress from the area was via a train (visible on the Bond Slides and the Bell Film) that was pulled up on a railroad siding that terminated behind the fence on the grassy knoll. (There were two such sidings, clearly visible, for example, in an aerial photo taken by Arthur Schatz, of Newsweek, and to which I bought rights, in order to be able to use it in my future research).

FWIW: IMHO, you can actually see the train "pulling out" on the Bell Film.  Furthermore, according to one or two Warren Commission witnesses (e.g., Harold Norman, who was looking out a window on the fifth floor of the TSBD), there were a few armed men atop one  of the trains. (e.g., see WC testimony of Harold Norman).

As far as I could tell, none of this was known to the Warren Commission (or even the FBI). 

I intend to write about all of this in Final Charade, including all relevant citations; plus a quote from SS Agent William Greer, the last thing he said to me, as I was standing just outside his front door, when exiting his home: "I'll tell you one thing: Chief Rowley (then SS Chief) would sure like to know what you're doing!” (DSL, 4/26/22 5PM PDT)

[Larry Hancock]

It should be noted that police did run aboard (meaning on the car platforms and onto the roofs) a series of three train cars which were stationary and used as temporary offices for railroad staff...when used locally they could be connected to a gas pipe extension which ran under the concrete bridge and across the train yard on pole supports (I traced the pipeline and climbed over it a number of times years ago).  When required for field use the cars would be detached and pulled out to remote locations where construction or other railroad work was in progress.  At the time of the assassination they were stationary and you can actually see a policeman climbing aboard  and standing on the roof of one of the cars on that siding.  I was never able to find any record that police asked for help unlocking them (they were passenger cars) or that they were searched.  Those cars were still there in the days following the assassination, not sure any of the local researchers who did look into them at times ever discovered when they did leave the area.

[Michael Crane]

[David Lifton]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

It should be noted that police did run aboard (meaning on the car platforms and onto the roofs) a series of three train cars which were stationary and used as temporary offices for railroad staff...when used locally they could be connected to a gas pipe extension which ran under the concrete bridge and across the train yard on pole supports (I traced the pipeline and climbed over it a number of times years ago).  When required for field use the cars would be detached and pulled out to remote locations where construction or other railroad work was in progress.  At the time of the assassination they were stationary and you can actually see a policeman climbing aboard  and standing on the roof of one of the cars on that siding.  I was never able to find any record that police asked for help unlocking them (they were passenger cars) or that they were searched.  Those cars were still there in the days following the assassination, not sure any of the local researchers who did look into them at times ever discovered when they did leave the area.

Larry:  Interesting.  Thanks for the detail.  But please note: On the Bell Film (and within one to two minutes of JFK's murder, when the limo has just sped through the Triple Underpass)  one can actually see a train (the one I'm talking about, i.e ., located on the nearest siding) pulling out; i.e., leaving the area via that railroad siding.   In other words, the event I'm talking about --"police" rushing aboard a train (which then pulled out) -- probably occurred within 90 seconds of JFK's murder.  It was that fast.

Furthermore, as detailed in some research I published decades ago (1966!), I interviewed a witness (the one who took the famous picture of the limo out on Stemmons) who described how a "switcher train" pulled onto one of those sidings, just before the motorcade reached Dealey Plaza.

Changing the subject a bit, I would be interested in getting more precise information as to exactly when Robin MacNeill was up at the "corner" of the wall, and gazing out at the area. Because that is when he must have seen what he then reported, after he ran back to the TSBD and made his call to New York.   In terms of train cars which did NOT move --or moved "later" (whenever "later" might be). I would cite Bond Slides 4, 5, 6 through 9 (if memory serves). 

I'm sure you are aware that Willis Slide 5 was apparently altered, to remove any trace of a train, which was located immediately behind the (semi-circular) monument. That removal was established -- i.e., proved -- some decades ago. IMHO: its simply not possible to have the train that is visible in Bond 4, 5, 6 etc., and not have it plainly visible in Willis 5.  (I believe that ha been established, "beyond a reasonable doubt", to cite an expression we all know too well).

Finally, there is Zapruder's statement about "the police" who were "running behind me."

The Barbara Bridges Tape

There is something you may not know about that statement:   I possess a rare audiotape of a very early JFK researcher --one Barbara Bridges (who I believe was a UC Berkeley student). Here's a key passage, which i'm quoting from memory:

"The police, Mr. Zapruder; the police who you said were running behind you:  They were the police from the motorcade?" (Barbara was genuinely confused).

Responds Zapruder: "Well, er, " (pauses):  "Where else would the be from?"

Just hearing that --years ago --made a powerful impression.

Again, this interview was conducted in 1965 --I repeat, 1965.

* * *

Frankly, I had this information for decades; but, for reasons I do not quite understand, I didn't "connect [all] the dots" until very recently.

The Secret Service and the Dallas Radio Station tapes.

Of particular importance is the business of Secret Service agents collecting all the radio tapes from multiple Dallas radio stations, and sending them to that Oklahoma Air Force Base; where a team of people sat with headphones, preparing these detailed lists of the contents.

Larry: Were you aware of that SS document?  Have you studied it carefully?

A question (of many) that I now have:  Who were the Secret Service agents involved in that activity?  Who were the "transcribers"?   On whose authority was this ordered?  Why was this "audio collection" project never the subject of an FBI investigation?  

Its amazing to me that 55 plus years after JFK's murder, this remarkable "audio collection" activity is hardly known (in the JFK research community) -- yet there it is, in the public record (because of a sentence or two in the intro to that CD); so here's an important event that is hardly known, and was never investigated.

FWIW: I welcome your assistance.

Best,  DSL

 

 

[David Lifton]

Larry:

One more piece of data.  As I recall, there's an FBI report that established just when Robin MacNeill made his call to New York. It was 12:35 or 12:36 (!).  (I believe that was in CD5 or CD7.  Do you have that FBI report?)

Anyway: if I'm correct. that established how quickly these events unfolded.

•The switcher train pulled in, and police took up their positions.

•The motorcade entered Dealey Plaza.

•JFK was shot; and his limo sped away.

•The "police" --some of them --ran by Zapruder, and boarded the train.

•The train pulled out.

** ** **

It was that fast. Two minutes, and it was over.

DSL

 

 

 

[David Lifton]

Larry:

One ore thing. . .:

Had you ever heard of the Barbara Bridges tape?

I'm going to have to find it. 

Best,  DSL

4/26/22 - 9:42 PM PDT 

 

[George Govus]

John Butler, in another topic on this forum, indicated that there was a train in motion across the Triple Underpass around the time of the assassination. Others, as I recall, discounted the notion. So this is fascinating. The motorcade was late getting to Dealey Plaza, by, what, fifteen minutes? This "switcher train" would have pulled in early, unless it was apprised of the motorcade's progress.

[David Lifton]

George: Thanks for your interest, but. . please note:

1. I'm well aware of the train crossing the Triple Underpass, at the time.

2. That train --whether it was there by coincidence, or as a distraction--I do not know, but. .

3. The train (or trains, if more than one train was utilized), that is the focus of my work, was located on one of the two railroad sidings that "dead-ended" behind the fence on the grassy knoll.

4. Because of the 'shiny' nature of those rails (in the Itek "Nix Film Report",  I suspect that those sidings were relatively new,  put down (i.e., laid down) just a few months prior to the assassination.  In any event, those rails were photographed --an aerial view --which appears in the Nix Film report, published by Itek (circa 1965 - 1967, I do not remember the exact date).

5. A few weeks (or perhaps a month or two) after the assassination, these "dead end" sidings were removed. How do I know that?  Because - around 1967 (yes, 50 plus years ago!) -- I knew someone who was in the U.S. Air Force, and was either "stationed" in Dallas, or was "passing through" the area.  (I remember his name, but am not publishing it here). I asked him if he could please do me a favor, and when he returned to Dallas,  photograph the railroad yard area.  He did so, and. . . 

6. And what did I discover?  That one or more of his colored photographs clearly established that the rails that had appeared so "fresh" from July 1963 (in the Nix Film report) had been torn up after the assassination; so that, for all practical purposes, they no longer existed! --i.e., no longer existed as the "dead-end" sidings shown in the Nix Film report. Instead, the area showed just a bunch of rubble.

7. To recap: the railroad track that crossed over the Triple Underpass may well have had a train crossing over it at the time of the assassination (and in fact, two DPD officers [named Foster and White]) were standing there at the time of JFK's murder and testified to the Warren Commission.  But that railroad track is the "first" continuous track, extending from the Union Terminal area, over to the Triple Underpass. The two dead-end "sidings" to which I am referring are the ones located between the Union terminal Tower ("Bowers tower") and the fence atop the grassy knoll.  That's where they ended.  Those two sidings are the ones which dead ended behind the grassy knoll, and are the ones which contained a train, the train towards which the "police" ran (and boarded); and which then pulled away in the 90 seconds (approx) following the murder of President Kennedy.

A final reminder: let me repeat what Zapruder told Barbara Bridges, when she questioned him in 1965: "The police, they were running behind me"; to which Barbara, who was a bit confused,  responded: "These police, Mr. Zapruder, they were the police from the motorcade?"  To which Zapruder, clearly taken aback by her response, replied: "Well, where else would they be from?"

Thanks for your interest.   DSL, 4/27/22 - 4:30 AM PDT

Edited April 27, 2022 by David Lifton
To improve clarity.