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Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?


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According to John A.:

Oswald's bracelet is listed on a DPD property form, found in Box 1, folder 8, item 1 at the Dallas Archives. It is identified as "One I.D. stretch band with 'Lee' inscribed.

Steve Thomas seems to have the most expertise searching the Dallas Archives.  If he sees this, perhaps he can confirm.

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5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Doh!

Jim is usually right. Will it turn out he's right again?

For the answer to this question, tune in tomorrow --  same LHO time, same LHO channel!

 

It sounds like a line that was fed to the cab driver by authorities.  Are cab drivers usually connoisseurs of men's accessories?  Only in Ian Fleming: "Gee, Mr. Bond, the fella gave off strong hints of Jade East cologne."

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Yeah, we all have to be conscious of the potential for all kinds of chicanery in this case, unfortunately.  For what it's worth, though, here's how Whaley testified in 1964:

Mr. Ball. Was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?

Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir: he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet....I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself ... It was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them."

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16 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yeah, we all have to be conscious of the potential for all kinds of chicanery in this case, unfortunately.  For what it's worth, though, here's how Whaley testified in 1964:

Mr. Ball. Was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?

Mr. Whaley. Yes, sir: he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet....I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself ... It was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them."

I might be right about the line being fed to the driver, but wrong about the bracelet style.  Here's a similar item that comes up when you Google "stretch ID bracelet":

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flookaside.fbsbx.com%2Flookaside%2Fcrawler%2Fmedia%2F%3Fmedia_id%3D668104756538425&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fzh-cn.facebook.com%2FKeirasBooksnStuff%2Fphotos%2Fstretch-id-bracelet-brooklyn%2F668104756538425%2F&tbnid=vkH1yZ74tZth6M&vet=10CNcBEDMovAFqFwoTCMDBz_S5w_cCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAF..i&docid=2Jhh5cscm-bohM&w=700&h=792&itg=1&q=stretch id bracelet&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=0CNcBEDMovAFqFwoTCMDBz_S5w_cCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAF

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Posted (edited)

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

The evidence that one Oswald was picked up by a Nash Rambler station wagon at almost exactly the same time another Oswald boarded McWatters’ bus is strong. 

No, it's very weak. The identification of Oswald by Craig is credible (it's corroborated by two other witnesses), but there's no good reason to believe that the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald, or anyone using that name, was on Cecil McWatters' bus.

To support his and the Warren Commission's claim that Oswald was on that bus, Jim mentions three pieces of evidence:

  • the bus transfer that was supposedly found in Oswald's shirt pocket;
  • the claim during his interrogations that Oswald mentioned having taken a bus;
  • and the fact that a number of officials were present at his interrogations, with the implication that they reported Oswald's claims accurately.

Plenty of work has been done that casts doubt on Jim's and the Warren Commission's claim. Lee Farley's analysis in particular is very good:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1121-oswald-and-bus-1213

Jim and the Warren Commission rely on the honesty of the FBI, Secret Service and other officials who reported what Oswald is supposed to have said under interrogation. But we know that they did not report everything Oswald said honestly or accurately. The officials misrepresented the most important statement of all, his alibi, in which Oswald appears to have said that he "went outside to watch the p[residential] parade" (yet another piece of evidence that is incompatible with the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense):

http://www.prayer-man.com/then-went-outside-to-watch-p-parade/

For more about the misrepresentation of Oswald's alibi by the officials who attended his interrogations and by the Warren Commission in its report, see:

http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-alibi

The claim that Oswald was on Cecil McWatters' bus relies ultimately on the testimony of Mary Bledsoe, who was perhaps the most unreliable of all the anti-Oswald witnesses (and McWatters wasn't much better).

Anyone who is unfamiliar with the relevant evidence should read Lee Farley's account, which I've linked to above, and Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact, pp.75-83.

There are numerous well-known problems with the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' argument that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. For a start, the basic presumption is far-fetched: that an assassin fleeing the scene of the crime would get on a bus that was heading straight back to the scene of the crime (not to mention that the bus wasn't heading close to the rooming house which was the supposed assassin's supposed destination).

The accounts given by the three witnesses (Bledsoe, McWatters and Roy Milton Jones) are mutually contradictory in all sorts of ways, and contradicted several uncontroversial facts. McWatters and Jones claimed that the man they saw was wearing a blue jacket; but the only such jacket associated with Oswald was discovered in the book depository a few days later. The man, supposedly Oswald, whom Bledsoe encountered on the bus had a torn shirt; but Oswald's shirt was not torn until his arrest more than an hour later.

The bus transfer supposedly found in Oswald's shirt pocket was in pristine condition despite his having been severely manhandled during and after his arrest. When the cops first searched Oswald, no bus transfer was found on him, but once it became known that the man on the bus had been given a transfer, one was found on Oswald. The transfer would have been of no use to anyone who immediately took a taxi away from the bus route, as the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' apologists would have us believe Oswald did. And so on.

All we have is unreliable witnesses making contradictory claims. There is no good reason to believe that either Bledsoe or Oswald were on McWatters' bus. This leaves a significant void in the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' narrative.

I was rather hoping that Jim would have found a way to reconcile all of this weak evidence into a coherent argument that Oswald was on that bus. Would Jim care to have a go? If he wants us to believe that he and the Warren Commission are correct, it's up to him to demonstrate that Oswald was on that bus.

Edited by Jeremy Bojczuk
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22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

According to John A.:

Oswald's bracelet is listed on a DPD property form, found in Box 1, folder 8, item 1 at the Dallas Archives. It is identified as "One I.D. stretch band with 'Lee' inscribed.

Steve Thomas seems to have the most expertise searching the Dallas Archives.  If he sees this, perhaps he can confirm.

Jim,

Unfortunately, the Dallas Police Archives are no longer available (at least in electronic form). The digitizing was taken over by the Portal to Texas History at the University of North Texas Libraries.

You can find the Dallas Police Archives here:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/JFKAM/browse/?start=0

I can't say that everything has been digitized yet, and the searching mechanism is a little different, but it's worth a look, their collection is pretty amazing.

While we're on the subject (sort of); in your post about how the two Oswald left the TSBD, which one of the two was stopped by Erich Kaminsky at the front door?

Steve Thomas

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f you read Mary Bledsoe's WC testimony very carefully, she was confirming that the shirt the WC showed her, was the same shirt the Secret Service showed her a couple of days after the assassination.

Steve Thomas

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Unfortunately, the Dallas Police Archives are no longer available (at least in electronic form). The digitizing was taken over by the Portal to Texas History at the University of North Texas Libraries.

You can find the Dallas Police Archives here:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/JFKAM/browse/?start=0

Steve,

Thanks for the info on the Dallas Police Archives.

I’m not familiar with the Erich Kaminsky encounter, but we believe Harvey left the TSBD from the north side, that he walked to the  domino room, picked up his light blue/grey jacket, walked out the back of the TSBD onto the loading dock, walked down the steps on the east side of the building (on Houston Street), and began walking toward Elm St.  Lee Oswald, otoh, probably left the building from the west side.  
 

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Mr. B. suggests forum members read “Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact, pp. 75-83.”  I’d also suggest they read pp. 359-387 of that fine book, beginning with the heading “Two Oswalds.”

Meagher.jpg

Mr. B. says, “The bus transfer supposedly found in Oswald's shirt pocket was in pristine condition despite his having been severely manhandled during and after his arrest.”  I’d suggest doing what John Armstrong did: Get a good photograph of the front and back of the transfer directly from the National Archives.  The photo from the back clearly shows that it was folded into thirds and then a corner was also folded over.

bus_transfer_back.jpg

U.S. Army employee Stuart Reed had apparent foreknowledge of several of the events that day, because he took not only pictures of the TSBD facade and “sniper’s nest” window, but also of Oswald’s arrest at the Texas Theater and even front and back pictures of what might well be McWatters’ bus approaching the TSBD.

Reed_Bus_Front.jpgReed_Bus_Back.jpg

Mr. B. wrote: “the basic presumption is far-fetched: that an assassin fleeing the scene of the crime would get on a bus that was heading straight back to the scene of the crime (not to mention that the bus wasn't heading close to the rooming house which was the supposed assassin's supposed destination).”

Harvey Oswald was NOT an assassin.  As he said in front of a television camera, “I’m just a patsy.”  It is clear that, for most of that fateful day, Oswald was following instructions.  The instruction to get on that bus probably came for Bill Shelley.  Does anyone seriously doubt that the movements of a designated on assassination day had to be controlled.  One of the reasons LHO was picked as the fall guy was that he had already demonstrated he could follow even difficult instructions.  (Consider, for example, how he slit his wrist rather than fail in his assignment to enter and live in Russia.)

Multiple witness saw J.D. Tippit and his patrol car at the Gloco station on N. Zang Blvd. soon after the assassination.  When McWatters’ bus arrived there and Oswald did not get off, Tippit drove away and soon asked for a telephone at the Top 10 Record Store.  A reasonable assumption is that Tippit was waiting for Oswald at the Gloco station and, when Oswald didn’t arrive, Tippit sought instructions on a private line, not his police radio.

Mr. B. writes: “Jim and the Warren Commission rely on the honesty of the FBI, Secret Service and other officials who reported what Oswald is supposed tMr. B. also wrote, “All we have is unreliable witnesses making contradictory claims. There is no good reason to believe that either Bledsoe or Oswald were on McWatters' bus. This leaves a significant void in the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' narrative.”o have said under interrogation. But we know that they did not report everything Oswald said honestly or accurately.”  

Just a half hour after his arrest, Harvey Oswald told Capt. Fritz, in the presence of Det. Elmer Boyd, Det. M.G. Hall, Det. Richard Sims, and FBI Agents Bookhout and Hosty, that he rode a bus home. As John Armstrong wrote:

“The following day, at 10:30 AM, (HARVEY) Oswald was again interrogated by Capt Fritz in the presence of SS Agent Thomas Kelley, FBI agent Jim Bookhout, US Marshall Robert Nash, SA David Grant, SAIC Forrest Sorrels, Det. Elmer Boyd, and Det M.G. Hall. Harvey Oswald again said that he rode a bus and secured a bus transfer (which was removed from his shirt pocket by Det. Sims the previous day). A total of seventeen people, including a Secret Service Agent, a US Marshall, FBI Agents, DPD Detectives, and Capt Fritz were present during interrogations when  (HARVEY) Oswald said that he rode a bus. Twelve people were present during interrogations when (HARVEY) Oswald said that he had obtained a bus transfer.”

Mr. B. also wrote, “All we have is unreliable witnesses making contradictory claims. There is no good reason to believe that either Bledsoe or Oswald were on McWatters' bus. This leaves a significant void in the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' narrative.”

John A. answered all or most of these objections years ago on our website:

  • Naysayers criticize bus driver Cecil McWatters because he could not positively identify (HARVEY) Oswald as a passenger on his bus. Naysayers ignore McWatters' description of this one passenger and his clothing—a man who rode in the middle of the bus for only 4 minutes. These naysayers forget there were perhaps dozens of bus passengers on several of McWatters' bus runs on 11/22/63, yet they endlessly criticize him for not remembering details about this one passenger.

  • Naysayers criticize the testimony and memory of Milton Jones, who remembered Oswald as a passenger and remembered his light blue jacket and grey pants. Naysayers conveniently forget that Oswald sat behind Jones, and only saw Oswald for a few seconds when he boarded and got off McWatters' bus.

  • Naysayers criticize the testimony and memory of Oswald's former landlady Mary Bledsoe, who described Oswalds dark brown shirt, the hole in the sleeve, and the missing buttons very well. Naysayers believe that Oswald changed the shirt he wore to work at his rooming house before he went to the theater, relying on the reports of Kelley and Bookhout. Therefore, naysayers criticize Bledsoe because her description of the shirt matches the shirt Oswald was wearing at the theater when arrested.

  • Naysayers claim that Oswald changed his shirt at his rooming house, citing the reports of Kelley and Bookhout, who wrote that Oswald removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar and placed it in the lower drawer of his dresser. The problem with their reports is that Oswald did not own a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar. He did own one, and only one, reddish-brown shirt, but this shirt did not have a button down collar (CE 150) and this was the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested in the Texas Theater. All of Oswald shirts were listed in DPD inventory. In the Warren Volumes these shirts are photographed and identified as WC #150 & 151 & 152-all long sleeved, and not one shirt is reddish-colored, long-sleeved, with a button down collar. WC # 153 & 154 & 155 & 160 are all short sleeved shirts. Oswald could not have removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar, because he didn't own such a shirt. Oswald did remove one shirt and put it in his dresser drawer, as he told Capt. Fritz. This was his dirty white t-shirt, soiled around the collar.

  • Naysayers criticize Mary Bledsoe and say that she did not see Oswald on the bus, because she saw “only a glimpse of him.” Naysayers forget that Oswald rented one of 3 bedrooms in her home and she saw him on a daily basis only 5 weeks before the assassination. He talked on the telephone constantly and interrupted her naps. Mrs. Bledsoe remembered that Oswald often spoke in a foreign language on her telephone. She was very familiar with Oswald's face and physique. Mrs. Bledsoe only needed a “glimpse” of (HARVEY) Oswald to recognize him instantly.

  • Naysayers constantly criticize Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley for their less than perfect memories. But Oswald was only in their presence for a mere 4-6 minutes. Naysayers conveniently forget that Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley all remembered that Oswald wore light colored grey pants on the bus and taxi. Oswald told Capt. Fritz that he had changed his dirty trousers (light colored grey pants) in his room. When arrested, Oswald was wearing very dark pants. His dirty light colored grey pants were later found in his room by police. How could Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley have known Oswald was wearing light grey pants on the bus/taxi unless they had personally seen him?

  • Naysayers claim that McWatters never gave Oswald a bus transfer. If McWatters never gave bus transfer #004459 to Oswald, then perhaps naysayers would care to explain why Dallas Police called the Dallas Transit Division Superintendent. Explain how Mr. F.F. Yates was able to immediately identify McWatters as the driver who issued the bus transfer. Do the naysayers expect us to believe that Dallas Transit supervisors were coerced into going along with a fabricated story that the bus ride never happened?

  • Naysayers ignore the fact that transfer #004459 came from McWatters' transfer book. They ignore McWatters' testimony that he remembered giving a transfer to Oswald and a transfer to a blond haired lady when both were getting off the bus. Naysayers ignore Mary Bledsoe's testimony that she spoke briefly with the blond lady when McWatters gave her a transfer. How would Oswald know about a blond-haired lady on McWatters bus unless he had ridden on that bus?

  • Naysayers claim the bus transfer at the National Archives does not have a crease in the middle, so it was never folded and put in Oswald's pocket. Naysayers ignore the fact that National Archivist Steve Hamilton confirmed that the bus transfer has a crease in the middle, indicating that it had at one time been folded.

  • Naysayers question the number of transfers given out by McWatters on 11/22/63. They know the first transfer McWatters issued was #004452, and they know the police found transfer #004459 in Oswald's shirt pocket. They claim, correctly, that McWatters gave out 8 transfers (#004452 to #004459). But they then claim that because McWatters told the WC that he gave out only two transfers, that 6 transfers were “missing.” Once again, these naysayers are simply misreading testimony. McWatters told the WC, “Yes, sir; I gave him one [bus transfer] about two blocks from where he got on [at Griffin]...that is the transfer because it had my punch mark on it....I gave only two transfers going through town on that trip [going through town on that trip!] and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentlemen that got off the bus, I issued two transfers....But that was the only two transfers were issued [on that ONE trip thru town]. Very simple. McWatters issued six transfers prior to picking up Oswald and the blond lady (prior to 12:40 PM). He then issued a transfer to the blond lady and a transfer to Oswald when they got off the bus (circa 12:44 PM).

  • Oswald told Capt. Fritz and his interrogators about a blond woman asking William Whaley to call her a taxi, just after Oswald got into Whaley's taxi. William Whaley told the WC the same story--that just after Oswald got into the front seat of his taxi, a blond lady asked him to call a taxi for her. How is it possible that Oswald's and Whaley's stories match perfectly, unless the taxi ride acutally happened and was remembered by both Oswald and Whaley?

  • Naysayers conveniently forget that Oswald's reference to a blond-haired lady, which he told to Capt. Fritz and numerous law enforcement officers during interrogations, was also remembered by Cecil McWatters, Mary Bledsoe, and Roy Milton Jones.

  • Naysayers criticize William Whaley for saying that Oswald had a silverlike strip on his shirt. Naysayers ignore and intentionally overlook that Whaley also said Oswald was wearing a brown long-sleeve shirt and a t-shirt with a soiled collar.

  • Naysayers criticize William Whaley because he said Oswald's bracelet was a “stretchband,” when it looks like a “chain link” bracelet. But naysayers, once again, should do their homework. Oswald's bracelet is listed on a DPD property form, found in Box 1, folder 8, item 1 at the Dallas Archives. It is identified as "One I.D. stretch band with 'Lee' inscribed.” Naysayers also fail so explain how Whaley could have known that Oswald was wearing any kind of silver-colored bracelet, unless he saw the bracelet himself on Oswald's left arm while riding in his taxi.

  • Naysayers criticize William Whaley when he said that he drove Oswald to Neches and Beckley, because this address is non-existent. Naysayers conveniently fail to remember that Oswald instructed Whaley to drive to the 500 block of N. Beckley. As Whaley was driving south on N. Beckley, Oswald said “this will do.” Whaley then stopped randomly in the street, at an unknown address, and Oswald got out of his taxi. Whaley wrote “500 N. Beckley” in his manifest because that is what he remembered Oswald told him when he first got into his taxi.

  • Naysayers criticize William Whaley because he wrote down the time of Oswald's taxi ride incorrectly in his manifest. Naysayers conveniently forget that Whaley explained to the WC that he always wrote the times of his taxi rides in 15-minute intervals. And said that he often wrote two, three, or four of these entries in his manifest at the same time, long after the taxi rides. Whaley said that when he got back to the Union Terminal he made an entry of the trip (to N Beckley) on his manifest for the day.

  • Naysayers criticize taxi driver William Whaley for naming the number 3 man in the police lineup as Oswald, when he was identified by the police as the number 2 man. Naysayers ignore the explanation that Whaley gave to the WC. Whaley simply said that LHO, walking from left to the right, was the 3rd man brought out for the lineup. From left to right, according to the police, Oswald was the #2 man.

  • Naysayers criticize and criticize these witnesses over the smallest of details, in an attempt to “prove” that the bus and taxi ride never happened. This is the extent of their “research.”

  • Naysayers ignore the fact that Capt. Fritz and many law enforcement officers heard Oswald say that he rode a bus, got a bus transfer, got into a taxi, offered to let a blond-haired lady have his taxi, and paid an 85 cent fare. The facts are that Mary Bledsoe and Roy Milton Jones testified that Oswald was on McWatters bus, transfer #004459 was found in Oswald's shirt pocket, William Whaley testified that Oswald rode in his taxi, that Oswald offered to let a blond-haired lady have his taxi, and that Oswald paid 95 cents in taxi fare. Witness testimony and evidence match pretty well with what Oswald told his interrogators.

  • Naysayers criticize, criticize, and criticize these witnesses for not having perfect memories. Yet these naysayers never produce a single document or a single witness by which to prove the taxi and bus ride never happened. Nor can they offer an ounce of PROOF as to what they think COULD HAVE happened—only speculation, fantasies, and daydreams.

Just as would be expected, taxi driver William Whaley remembered more about Oswald than the witnesses on a crowded bus, but, of course, Mr. B. doesn’t even consider the taxi ride.    
 

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

To support his and the Warren Commission's claim that Oswald was on that bus, Jim mentions three pieces of evidence:

  • the bus transfer that was supposedly found in Oswald's shirt pocket;
  • the claim during his interrogations that Oswald mentioned having taken a bus;
  • and the fact that a number of officials were present at his interrogations, with the implication that they reported Oswald's claims accurately.

Plenty of work has been done that casts doubt on Jim's and the Warren Commission's claim. Lee Farley's analysis in particular is very good:

What about the driver William Whaley?  Doesn't his witness statement count?  

Are you saying the FBI and Dallas police were major cover-up conspiracy players?  If so, I'll have to think more kindly of you.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

There are numerous well-known problems with the Warren Commission and 'Harvey and Lee' argument that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. For a start, the basic presumption is far-fetched: that an assassin fleeing the scene of the crime would get on a bus that was heading straight back to the scene of the crime (not to mention that the bus wasn't heading close to the rooming house which was the supposed assassin's supposed destination).

It is not so far-fetched if the person doesn't or couldn't drive.  Harvey always lived in a large city where it is convenient and less expensive to take a bus or cab rather than own a vehicle.  New York, New Orleans, and Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Edited by John Butler
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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The bus transfer supposedly found in Oswald's shirt pocket was in pristine condition despite his having been severely manhandled during and after his arrest.

Can you prove this?  Where is your evidence or fact indicating this?

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

All we have is unreliable witnesses making contradictory claims.

How have you refuted these "unreliable witnesses"?  I don't want to go to another site to see your proclaimed truth.  Can you give it here?

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I was rather hoping that Jim would have found a way to reconcile all of this weak evidence into a coherent argument that Oswald was on that bus. Would Jim care to have a go? If he wants us to believe that he and the Warren Commission are correct, it's up to him to demonstrate that Oswald was on that bus.

Jim Hargrove has.  There is a long piece by him refuting the things you claim.  Please read that and recognize that many of the things you claim belong in your favorite category "nonsense".

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23 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mr. B. suggests forum members read “Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact, pp. 75-83.”  I’d also suggest they read pp. 359-387 of that fine book, beginning with the heading “Two Oswalds.”

Since Sylvia Meagher is being validated by both Jim and Jeremy (both sides of an argument) I want to get in a shot for Sylvia being correct on the U2 as the basis for Oswald's trip to Russia.

Now, back to the Jim and Jeremy argument on the two Oswalds transportation from the TSBD.  It really isn't necessary for me to tell one which side I support.

Which came first?  Was it Lee Oswald or Harvey Oswald that left the TSBD and obtained transportation first?

Well, if not simultaneous they were within minutes of obtaining the type of transportation they used.  I don't see that as an argument.  What I do see is a challenge to the Harvey and Lee story.  Jim Hargrove has ably defended that position with many of the fine posts made available in this thread.  They are fact filled rather than just assumptions and proclamations produced by the other side of the argument.

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