Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

No shooting from the 6th floor? Really? I've heard of shots coming from the 5th floor,but we are going to have to agree to disagree on the 6th floor shooting.

Michael,

That's not a problem.  But, let me make the case for no shooting from the 6th floor.  Here are 11 witness statement from people in the TSBD on the 5th, 4th, 3rd, and 2nd floors.  Initially 3 witnesses said they heard shooting form the 6th floor.  Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and Junior Jarman.  Bonnie Ray changed his testimony 4 times, Harold was consistent, and Junior Jarman changed his testimony to the low and left which indicates the Da-Tex.

The other 8 said something different.  Elsie Dorman said shooting came from the Dal-Tex Court Records Building.  The others generally said from the west in the direction of the Grassy Knoll or Triple Underpass.  These witnesses were with 40 feet of the 6th floor window where the alleged shooting came from.  They would have heard the rifle shot coming from the 6th floor if it did.  The problem is they didn't.

Witness Statements:

1.     Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

2.     Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston.  Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that.

 

3.     James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left.  That is shooting from Houston Street.  This could be from the Dal-Tex.

 

4.     Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the Elm intersection.  She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west.  Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5^th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6^th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011.  This contradicts her earlier statements.

 

5.     Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St.

 

6.      Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report.  She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.  She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street at the Court Records Building.

 

7.     Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the Houston and Elm intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

 

8.     Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots.  She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees.  And, that would be in front of the TSBD.

 

9.     Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees on Elm.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

 

10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees on Elm.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

 

11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees on Elm.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’ve thought quite a bit about that too.  I eventually decided it didn’t happen that way for two reasons

Your right.  Other than speculation, there is no good evidentiary means to prove or disprove.  But, it is reasonable if they were being told all along what to wear when visiting certain places.

We know both Oswalds were at the TSBD.  Another good question might be is how often did they do that?  I can't see Harvey working there and Lee just walking in and taking his place on the day of the assassination.  There must have been an adjustment period in order to ensure success by Lee knowing what he was doing.

Good point on Lee not knowing fully about workers and office personnel.      

[Michael Crane]

I wasn't aware of the black folks changing their statement.Even if they did,I will take the first statement of hearing gun shells dropping on the floor.This is possible since they were in the process of making a new floor.IIRC,they also said that some pieces of material dropped on their head?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Michael Crane

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Why Believe the FBI?

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

How is it possible that Oswald's and Whaley's stories match so well, unless the taxi ride actually happened and was remembered by both Oswald and Whaley?

I offered an explanation for this a couple of pages ago. The only evidence we have for what Oswald actually said are the memos written by the FBI agents and other officials who interviewed him. We know that they misrepresented Oswald's alibi. Why should we assume that they reported everything else accurately?

Jim is normally quick to declare anything touched by officialdom to be a fake on no other grounds than that it contradicts Holy Writ. Here, by contrast, we have solid evidence that officialdom actually distorted a statement by Oswald, and we have an obvious, plausible reason why the very same individuals might have distorted another statement by Oswald. There is no good reason to think the FBI and the other agencies must have been reliable on this occasion.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Roy Milton Jones Did Not See Oswald

Jim also writes:

Quote

the evidence young Mr. Jones gave the FBI clearly shows that the man he saw briefly and sat behind him was the bus and taxi Oswald.

This not true, as I've pointed out already. Milton Jones's description of the man did not match the real-life, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald.

In CE 2641, Jones described the man as:

• aged 30-35 (Oswald was 24 years old),
• 5' 11" tall (Oswald was 5' 9" tall),
• 150 pounds in weight (Oswald was weighed that very day at 131 pounds),
• and wearing a blue jacket (Oswald's blue jacket was in the book depository).

If Jones's description is accurate, the man on the bus was not Oswald.

Interestingly, Jones's description not only shows that the real-life Oswald wasn't on McWatters' bus, but it also shows that the 'Harvey and Lee' theory's imaginary doppelganger Oswald wasn't on the bus either.

As we have seen, the man Jones saw was 5' 11" tall, while the real-life Oswald was 5' 9" tall. But according to Holy Writ, one of Jim's imaginary doppelgangers was supposed to have been 5' 11". That doppelganger must have been the man Jones saw! Unfortunately for Jim, Holy Writ claims that it was the other doppelganger, shorter but equally imaginary, who was supposed to have been on the bus.

Whoops!

Mind you, the heights of these fictional characters were very flexible. The 5' 11" imaginary doppelganger is supposed to have shrunk to 5' 6" when he was buying trucks in New Orleans. It would be no more far-fetched to claim that the short doppelganger magically grew a few inches taller when he got on the bus. But it's all a load of make-it-up-as-you-go-along nonsense, isn't it?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

The Blue Jacket Cannot Have Been Planted

Quote

the blue jacket had to be accounted for since it wasn’t the white jacket "found" by Westbrook.

But the way the blue jacket was "accounted for" did not support the Warren Commission's case that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The discovery of the jacket in the book depository contradicts the claim that Oswald was on that bus. It cannot have been planted by anyone who wanted Oswald to have been on that bus.

The authorities needed to show that Oswald got away from the book depository without assistance. The only option they had was to claim that he was on McWatters' bus. All three of the supposed witnesses to this event stated that the man in question was wearing a blue jacket. If Oswald owned a blue jacket, the authorities needed to show that Oswald was wearing that jacket when he got on McWatters' bus.

The discovery in the book depository of a blue jacket, attributed to Oswald, refuted the authorities' claim that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The jacket simply cannot, as Jim claims, have been planted by the authorities! They had every reason not to plant the jacket.

Incidentally, this doesn't prove that Oswald was the young white man who got into the car as seen by Roger Craig and two motorists. Oswald was a generic-looking young white man, at a glance easily mistaken for any number of other young white men.

What it does prove is that, if the three witnesses were correct that the man they saw was wearing a blue jacket, that man cannot have been Oswald.

The existence of a blue jacket in the book depository demonstrates that the man on McWatters' bus was not Oswald. This leaves a big hole in both the lone-gunman theory and the ridiculous 'Harvey and Lee' theory.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:40 AM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Dead wrong, as usual. Jeremy and I have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life. But that does not mean the impersonations were part of some absolutely preposterous long-term doppelganger project. The implication that Sylvia Meagher's writings somehow support the "Harvey and Lee" theory is profoundly off-base.

Is this true, Mr. Bojczuk?

Have you and Jonathan Cohen "always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life?"  We can get back to our usual debates when you answer this question.  

EDIT: Well, since I started a new thread about Mr. Cohen's amazing statement, I guess I can go back to debating Mr. B.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

In CE 2641, Jones described the man as:

• aged 30-35 (Oswald was 24 years old),
• 5' 11" tall (Oswald was 5' 9" tall),
• 150 pounds in weight (Oswald was weighed that very day at 131 pounds),
• and wearing a blue jacket (Oswald's blue jacket was in the book depository).

If Jones's description is accurate, the man on the bus was not Oswald.

Oh, please.  Oswald sat behind Jones for a short time on the bus.  We’re lucky that he remembered anything about Oswald. The fact that he missed Oswald’s age by six years, his height by two inches and his weight by 19 pounds is hardly dismissive. And Oswald’s blue jacket was NOT in the depository, not yet.  It was obviously planted there days later. Do you seriously think all the cops, FBI personnel, Secret Service guys, etc. missed seeing it for days?  Seriously?  

Jones did recall, agreeing with McWatters and Oswald himself,  that a blond woman got on the bus at the same time as Oswald.  

Jones apparently indicated that “A blond woman and a dark haired man [Oswald] boarded the bus approximately six blocks before Houston Street. The man sat in the seat behind him and the woman occupied a seat further to the rear of the bus.” Jones told the FBI the man sitting behind him wore a “light blue jacket and grey khaki trousers.” 

McWatters later told the WC, “Yes, sir; I gave him one [bus transfer] about two blocks from where he got on [at Griffin]... that is the transfer because it had my punch mark on it.... I gave only two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentlemen that got off the bus, I issued two transfers.…

Oswald told Capt. Fritz about the blond-haired lady who asked Whaley to call her a taxi. And Whaley told the same story to the police. 

From Whaley’s WC testimony:

Mr. WHALEY. The lady, I don't remember whether she was very old, but she was middle-aged. She bent down and stuck in and said, "Can I have this cab?" And he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. I thought he was going to let her have it.
I told her there would be another one, and she said, "Would you please call me one."
 

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The Blue Jacket Cannot Have Been Planted

But the way the blue jacket was "accounted for" did not support the Warren Commission's case that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The discovery of the jacket in the book depository contradicts the claim that Oswald was on that bus. It cannot have been planted by anyone who wanted Oswald to have been on that bus.

The authorities needed to show that Oswald got away from the book depository without assistance. The only option they had was to claim that he was on McWatters' bus. All three of the supposed witnesses to this event stated that the man in question was wearing a blue jacket. If Oswald owned a blue jacket, the authorities needed to show that Oswald was wearing that jacket when he got on McWatters' bus.

The discovery in the book depository of a blue jacket, attributed to Oswald, refuted the authorities' claim that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The jacket simply cannot, as Jim claims, have been planted by the authorities! They had every reason not to plant the jacket.

Incidentally, this doesn't prove that Oswald was the young white man who got into the car as seen by Roger Craig and two motorists. Oswald was a generic-looking young white man, at a glance easily mistaken for any number of other young white men.

What it does prove is that, if the three witnesses were correct that the man they saw was wearing a blue jacket, that man cannot have been Oswald.

The existence of a blue jacket in the book depository demonstrates that the man on McWatters' bus was not Oswald. This leaves a big hole in both the lone-gunman theory and the ridiculous 'Harvey and Lee' theory.

More nonsense.  As I said before, how can you believe that this blue/grey jacket wasn’t seen at the TSBD for days after the assassination?  Hindsight is often 20-20, but this was clearly a cover-up unfolding, at least partially, in real time.  My suspicion is that Roy Truly planted the jacket in the building because he knew that Westbrook and company had been waving around a white “Oswald” jacket near 10th and Patton and he didn’t want anyone to have to explain away two “Oswald” jackets.

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

More nonsense.  As I said before, how can you believe that this blue/grey jacket wasn’t seen at the TSBD for days after the assassination?  

Well, Jim, it was not nuanced enough.  That's the simple answer.

I think I am beginning to get the hang of this.  Any time I want to disagree with someone I can say their facts were not nuanced enough to be worthy of consideration.

Edited May 7, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Was this Oswald's blue jacket?

I can't remember If I have seen a WC exhibit photo.  Is there one available?

[Greg Doudna]

9 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The Blue Jacket Cannot Have Been Planted

But the way the blue jacket was "accounted for" did not support the Warren Commission's case that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The discovery of the jacket in the book depository contradicts the claim that Oswald was on that bus. It cannot have been planted by anyone who wanted Oswald to have been on that bus.

The authorities needed to show that Oswald got away from the book depository without assistance. The only option they had was to claim that he was on McWatters' bus. All three of the supposed witnesses to this event stated that the man in question was wearing a blue jacket. If Oswald owned a blue jacket, the authorities needed to show that Oswald was wearing that jacket when he got on McWatters' bus.

The discovery in the book depository of a blue jacket, attributed to Oswald, refuted the authorities' claim that Oswald was on McWatters' bus. The jacket simply cannot, as Jim claims, have been planted by the authorities! They had every reason not to plant the jacket.

Incidentally, this doesn't prove that Oswald was the young white man who got into the car as seen by Roger Craig and two motorists. Oswald was a generic-looking young white man, at a glance easily mistaken for any number of other young white men.

What it does prove is that, if the three witnesses were correct that the man they saw was wearing a blue jacket, that man cannot have been Oswald.

The existence of a blue jacket in the book depository demonstrates that the man on McWatters' bus was not Oswald. This leaves a big hole in both the lone-gunman theory and the ridiculous 'Harvey and Lee' theory.

Jeremy, while I don't agree with the Lee and Harvey business at all, on this blue jacket I think you might be interested in another way of looking at it in which: Oswald wore the gray jacket from Irving to work that morning; wore the gray jacket out of the TSBD; wore it on the bus and in the cab; ditched it somewhere on Beckley; entered the rooming house; put on the blue jacket; went to the Texas Theatre (by bus south on Beckley after feinting going north for the benefit of eagle-eyed housekeeper Earlene's benefit); arrived to the theatre with the blue jacket; either took off the blue jacket outside before buying a ticket and entering or after sitting down inside the warm theatre and then moving around in seating; after his arrest (not wearing a jacket) the blue jacket was found either inside or immediately outside the theatre; it was not reported as coming from there but some days later was planted and claimed to be discovered at the TSBD, where no employee ever saw Oswald wearing that blue jacket. Full argument at my "The jackets as exculpation of Oswald as the Tippit killer: an analysis", https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27367-an-argument-for-actual-innocence-of-oswald-in-the-tippit-case/page/2/, about 3/4 down on the page.

 

[John Butler]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:10 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Three witnesses claimed to have seen a young white man on a bus, wearing a blue jacket.

The blue jacket found at the TSBD is WC CE 163.  Here is two photos of CE 163 and a blue jacket Oswald wore in Russia.  Are they the same?

1 and 2 look slightly different.  2 looks like the jacket worn by Oswald in Russia.  

None of these examples is a light blue jacket, or a light grey jacket, or a white/tan jacket.

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

The blue jacket found at the TSBD is WC CE 163.  Here is two photos of CE 163 and a blue jacket Oswald wore in Russia.  Are they the same?

1 and 2 look slightly different.  2 looks like the jacket worn by Oswald in Russia.  

None of these examples is a light blue jacket, or a light grey jacket, or a white/tan jacket.

Oswald in Dallas had a heavier-weight dark-blue jacket (C163) and a lighter-weight medium-gray jacket (no photo known; per argument not the light-gray almost white jacket C162 of the Tippit killer).

If the photo in the middle is verified Oswald the jacket the jacket he is wearing is not the dark-blue C163 to both left and right above, but could be the first known photo of Oswald's medium-gray jacket that he wore to work Fri morning Nov 22. Where did you get that middle photo above John. Can the photo be verified as Oswald?

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Greg, thanks for that interesting account. But it relies on the Warren Report-H & L account of Oswald getting away by bus and taxi, for which no strong evidence exists. If the blue jacket really was planted in the TSBD, your explanation is more plausible than Jim's.

What isn't plausible at all is the idea that the authorities planted the jacket in the TSBD. As I explained, the existence of that jacket in the TSBD undermines the witnesses who claimed that Oswald was wearing it on the bus, which in turn undermines the notion that Oswald was actually on the bus, which implies that he had accomplices, which ... you can fill in the rest. Planting the jacket would have been counter-productive.

Jim writes:

Quote

Roy Truly planted the jacket in the building because ... he didn’t want anyone to have to explain away two "Oswald" jackets.

The discovery of the blue jacket in the TSBD had the opposite effect: it created the necessity to explain away two jackets. If the authorities wanted to support the notion that it was Oswald who discarded the white jacket that was found near the Tippit murder scene, all they needed to do was make the blue jacket disappear.