Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[John Butler]

On 5/17/2022 at 9:28 AM, Steve Thomas said:

It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth.

I have to apologize to Steve Thomas on my mix up of Elsbeth and Bentley addresses.  I have 3 new drugs that due wonders to cognition and memory.  Since one is an opiod I am feeling much better.  The others are also addictive with brain and mood changes.  

[Steve Thomas]

25 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I have to apologize to Steve Thomas on my mix up of Elsbeth and Bentley addresses.

John,

No sweat.

Steve

[Dan Rice]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Dan Rice was probably referring to the infamous CIA cable of October 10, 1963 (see below). 

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

[Jim Hargrove]

As you probably know, page 2 of that cable indicated that “life in Soviet Union clearly had a maturing effect on Oswald.” That cable was issued just a couple of months after Oswald’s arrest for alleged violence in support of Communist Cuba!

A really disturbing thing about that cable is that it was sent at almost exactly the same time (10/10/63) that the FBI cancelled the “Wanted Notice” on LHO. 

 

All this gives the impression that elements of the CIA and the FBI made a coordinated effort to give a clean bill of political health for LHO.  Concentrating on the mole hunt business, in my opinion, is just a smokescreen to take attention away from this remarkable coincidence.

These two documents, issued nearly simultaneously, clearly took the federal spotlight off Oswald less than two months before the assassination of JFK.  

I wrote up a more complete analysis of all this HERE.

[Jonathan Cohen]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

All this gives the impression that elements of the CIA and the FBI made a coordinated effort to give a clean bill of political health for LHO.  Concentrating on the mole hunt business, in my opinion, is just a smokescreen to take attention away from this remarkable coincidence.

These two documents, issued nearly simultaneously, clearly took the federal spotlight off Oswald less than two months before the assassination of JFK. 

How can there have been a "coordinated effort" to "give a clean bill of health" to someone who you claim was actually two different people?

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

How can there have been a "coordinated effort" to "give a clean bill of health" to someone who you claim was actually two different people?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm not sure what point Jim was trying to make by including a screen shot of Jonathan's comment, or even why he thinks that comment is significant. Did he mistakenly think the word 'always' applied to the impersonations? Personally, I don't believe Oswald was 'always' impersonated, and I assume Jonathan doesn't believe that either.

As Jonathan pointed out in that comment, it's possible to believe that Oswald may have been impersonated without also believing in Jim's ridiculous notion of a long-term double-doppelganger project that could never have been implemented.

Any impersonations would have been ad hoc incidents. Impersonations do not require doppelgangers. Surely even Jim accepts this. Or does he? Perhaps he could clarify this for us.

When he has answered that question, Jim could take this opportunity to fill in the missing part of his double-doppelganger theory. Why, in Jim's opinion, did those masterminds decide to set up a scheme that involved doppelgangers? Why recruit a fake Oswald and a fake Marguerite when a much easier, cheaper, and more obvious solution was available?

I've asked Jim to explain this on several threads over the past year or two. Sadly, no explanation has been forthcoming, which suggests that there isn't one. But if Jim believes that his imaginary masterminds existed, he must believe that they had good reasons for doing what Jim claims they did. He should be able to tell us what those reasons are.

Here are the two questions for Jim:

• Do you accept that someone can be impersonated without the use of doppelgangers?
• What were the reasons for setting up a complex long-term impersonation project involving two pairs of doppelgangers when there was no need to do so?

[Jim Hargrove]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:49 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Milton Jones's description of the man did not match the real-life, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald.

In CE 2641, Jones described the man as:

• aged 30-35 (Oswald was 24 years old),
• 5' 11" tall (Oswald was 5' 9" tall),
• 150 pounds in weight (Oswald was weighed that very day at 131 pounds),
• and wearing a blue jacket (Oswald's blue jacket was in the book depository).

If Jones's description is accurate, the man on the bus was not Oswald.

Again.... 

Really?  According to his Marine Corps discharge data, Oswald was 5’11” (71”) tall and weighed 150 lbs., EXACTLY matching the estimates by Jones.  Earl Rose’s autopsy report estimated Oswald’s weight at 150 pounds, also EXACTLY matching the estimate by Jones.  (Rose measured Oswald’s height a 5’9”.)

As I’ve already explained, but Mr. B. continues to ignore, bus driver McWatters testified that he gave out only two transfers during his run at the time of the assassination, one to a blond woman and the other to Oswald, who apparently got on at the same time.  Jones also said that a blond woman got on the bus at the same time as the man he described so accurately (missing only the age by six years).

Jones indicated that “A blond woman and a dark haired man [Oswald] boarded the bus approximately six blocks before Houston Street. The man sat in the seat behind him and the woman occupied a seat further to the rear of the bus.” Jones told the FBI the man sitting behind him wore a “light blue jacket and grey khaki trousers.” 

McWatters later told the WC, “Yes, sir; I gave him one [bus transfer] about two blocks from where he got on [at Griffin]... that is the transfer because it had my punch mark on it.... I gave only two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentlemen that got off the bus, I issued two transfers.…

By the way, since Mr. B. believes that an eyewitness estimate of a man’s height that is off by 2 inches means it must be a different person, no doubt Mr. B. will agree that the LHO who left the Marine Corps measured at 5’11” tall simply cannot be the same LHO who was measured on a slab by Earl Rose at 5’9”.  These are measurements by medical professionals, not estimates by casual eyewitnesses.

I'm sure Mr. B. will agree that the height distinctions indicate there were two different LHOs!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Why recruit a fake Oswald and a fake Marguerite when a much easier, cheaper, and more obvious solution was available?

 

Jeremy apparently knows better than the CIA what their needs are and how they should accomplish their goals. Maybe they'll offer him a job.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/19/2022 at 5:33 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Concentrating on the mole hunt business, in my opinion, is just a smokescreen to take attention away from this remarkable coincidence.

 

I agree with you Jim that the documents showing both the FBI and CIA taking their attention off of Oswald at the same time, not long before the assassination, is fairly strong evidence that he was being set up for the assassination.

I also agree that the mole hunt business distracts from that fact. But you don't really believe that that is the intention the mole-hunt business proponents, do you?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I agree with you Jim that the documents showing both the FBI and CIA taking their attention off of Oswald at the same time, not long before the assassination, is fairly strong evidence that he was being set up for the assassination.

I also agree that the mole hunt business distracts from that fact. But you don't really believe that that is the intention the mole-hunt business proponents, do you?

Sandy,

I’ll freely confess that I’m suspicious as all heck of anyone who thinks it is more important to trace the specifics of what may have been a CIA mole hunt nearly 60 years ago than it is to understand why elements of the CIA and the FBI at least appeared to be coordinating efforts to set up a patsy for the murder of JFK.  

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

I’ll freely confess that I’m suspicious as all heck of anyone who thinks it is more important to trace the specifics of what may have been a CIA mole hunt nearly 60 years ago than it is to understand why elements of the CIA and the FBI at least appeared to be coordinating efforts to set up a patsy for the murder of JFK.  

 

Interesting.

I'll say one thing... I think that the proponents of the mole hunt theory are wrong. But as always I will look at their evidence once it's available and will consider the theory. So far I see nobody talking about it on the forum.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

It's curious that I asked Jim a couple of awkward questions yesterday, and instead of replying to them he replied to something I'd written two weeks earlier.

Jim has been claiming that, if Oswald was impersonated, there must have existed a long-term scheme involving two pairs of doppelgangers. But he hasn't told us why such a scheme was necessary. He needs to explain:

• why he thinks impersonations require the use of doppelgangers;
• and why he thinks it was necessary to implement such a preposterously complex scheme in order to produce a false defector with an American background who understood Russian, when a far simpler alternative existed.

Here are those two questions again:

• Does Jim accept that someone can be impersonated without the use of doppelgangers?
• What were the reasons for setting up a complex long-term impersonation project involving two pairs of doppelgangers when there was no need to do so?

[Jim Hargrove]

On 5/21/2022 at 4:27 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Here are those two questions again:

• Does Jim accept that someone can be impersonated without the use of doppelgangers?
• What were the reasons for setting up a complex long-term impersonation project involving two pairs of doppelgangers when there was no need to do so?

For the first question above:

To my knowledge, I’ve never been impersonated in my life.  How ‘bout you?  Strange that there is so much evidence that LHO was impersonated time and time again.

Laura Kittrell met both Oswalds and described their similarities and differences to the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi, who wrote: 

“She has concluded that the person she saw the last time wasn’t really Oswald but perhaps someone he sent in his place in order to maintain his employment claim.  ‘He looked the same,’ she said, ‘the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing…..’  She said that although she suspected the fellow might not have been Oswald at the time, she wasn’t sure and she didn’t want to call him a xxxx and create a scene without being sure."

For the second question:

I’ve never bothered to respond to this hypothetical argument despite all the times you have repeated it.  Most people know that it is far easier to learn a second or third language as a child, and that is about the only sure way to do so and still speak without a discernible accent. As Sandy Larsen wrote above, “Jeremy apparently knows better than the CIA what their needs are and how they should accomplish their goals. Maybe they'll offer him a job.”

Without giving Russian-speaking Harvey parallel experiences with American-born Lee, how would Harvey respond to the simplest questions from the Soviets.  For example:

“Say Comrade.  Dis Bo-Re-Gard School you go to, where you eat lunch, eh?  First floor, second or third, basement, roof?  Where?”

Will Mr. B ever answer my posts on his arguments about Milton Jones? 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To my knowledge, I’ve never been impersonated in my life.  How ‘bout you?  Strange that there is so much evidence that LHO was impersonated time and time again.

Let me take this a bit farther.  Why was a nobody, a wannabe spy, and crazed individual who could barely find employment and keep it impersonated so often?  This impersonation from time to time started in 1959 with Oswald leaving the military and continued until Harvey Oswald's death in 1963.