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Evidence that the bus transfer and unfired .38 rounds were never found on Oswald


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Gus Rose (he of the famous claim that he found a Minox camera that the DPD evidence photo does not show and FBI said they never received in the evidence shipment)--he also says he searched Oswald before the Boyd and Sims search. Gus Rose in Sneed, No More Silence (1998):

". . . As I looked up, I saw officers coming in with a man handcuffed behind his back who was obviously under arrest. He was talking loudly and was sweaty looking, so I stopped what I was doing and went to see what they were doing and what they had. It was explained to me that they had the guy that had killed Tippit. Now, up to that point, I didn't have any reason to believe that thee was a connection between the Tippit shooting and the murder of the President; in fact, I didn't even think about it. I just knew that he had supposedly killed Tippit. 

"So Officer Stovall and I took the man into the interrogation room. I asked him who he was, but he wouldn't tell me. He refused to give me a name. I then searched him and found two pieces of identification in his pocket: one had the name Alec Hidell, and the other had the name Lee Oswald. So I said, 'Which one of these are you?' He gave me a real strange look and said, 'Well, you're the cop, you figure it out!' That was his term. He became pretty ugly and cussed a little in talking to me as I  began to question him. He lied to me about every one of the questions. We hadn't established his identity for certain, so I then asked him where he lived; he gave me a fictitious address. When I asked him where he worked, he said, 'I'm a printer. I work in a local printing company.' That's the way he put it. I asked him if he had ever had any military service, he said 'no.' I asked him if he had any family in the area, and he again said 'no.' So he continually lied, though that's not necessarily a bad thing. When you're interrogating somebody, you try to establish a rapport with them, and you set about to do that without getting into the actual case. I did ask him about his arrest and he said, 'Oh, I was just sitting in the theater and officers came in and planted a gun on me and accused me of shooting somebody. I don't know nothing about that!'

"So it was that type of interrogation with him. When I first saw him, he looked okay except for being sweaty and the injury over one eye. He did settle down somewhat and became less nervous in this short interrogation, though he was still combative with his answers. I found him to be arrogant and belligerent and almost in a state of confusion. He denied emphatically that he'd done anything wrong, almost overdenial. I've been involved in lots of interrogations, and it was almost overkill on his denials. His attitude was 'I haven't done anything; I've been framed,' which wasn't bad from the standpoint of interrogation. We might have been able to overcome that. I knew, in my mind, that he had killed Tippit, but I didn't suspect anything about the President.

"Then, after a while, Captain Fritz knocked at the door and told me this; I remember it just like it was yesterday: 'We just got back from the Book Depository and there's an employee that's missing. They think he's the suspect in the murder of the President. I want you to get some officers to go with you and find that missing employee.'

"I said, 'Well, I would, Captain, but I've got the man in here that killed Tippit.' He said, 'Well, I'll have someone else handle that. I want somebody to go with you and y'all go find this missing employee.'

"'Okay, what's his name?'

"He said, 'His name's Lee Oswald.'

"At that point, I snapped real fast. 'Oh, hey, I think this is him. I found some ID on him that said Lee Oswald, and I believe that'll be him.' At that point he instructed me to locate any family of Oswald's that was in the area and bring them in for questioning. I didn't finish with the witness [= apparently Brennan being interviewed by him earlier--gd]

"Immediately after that, Captain Fritz gave me an address where Oswald's wife supposedly was . . ." (pp. 337-339)

Gus Rose searches Oswald, only identification (the wallet?) found. No five bullets found, which Rose surely would have noticed. 

Walker says he searched Oswald, finds Oswald clean. No five cartridges in his pants which Walker surely would have been noticed. 

It just makes sense that Oswald would have been searched upon arrival to the police station. (At the Texas Theatre it may be in light of the unruly threatening crowd outside there was urgency to get him into the car and out of there intact which could explain if he was not searched at the scene?)

The whole 4:05 first search always has looked really odd--wait two hours to search the suspect to see if he's armed or has on him a knife? and any such search would have to have picked up five bullets, if there had been five bullets there. Nobody doing a search could miss five bullets in a pants pocket!

This last point of the incongruity of waiting two hours before a first check to see if the suspect had a knife or other weapon, let alone what else he may have on him, is just prima facie crazy, supporting the Walker and Rose stories of having done those earlier searches even though both of those stories come over a decade after the fact and could, viewed in isolation, be criticized as mistaken or exaggerations in memory or less than certain, e.g. what if Rose had been handed the wallet of Oswald already removed from Oswald previously, and simply in retelling, by the time of Sneed, 35 years later, has himself pulling it out of Oswald's pockets. Did he? And Walker's testimony is first known 1978 fifteen years later to HSCA; did he really search as claimed? But it is that 4:05 (in addition to the officers' stories themselves) which makes minimally a real question of planted bullets on Oswald in that 4:05 search.

If the five bullets found by Boyd were planted on Oswald, I do not think it is necessary to accuse Sims. The 4:05 search was real enough; it may not have been the first search but Sims telling his participation in the 4:05 need not be untruthful. Sims found the bus transfer ticket; I don't see a problem with that or that having been missed by mistake earlier especially from patdown. (As to why its in his changed-shirt pocket, would be because Oswald put it into his new shirt pocket intending to use at the time he changed shirts, but it expired after the one hour validity before he could use it and it wasn't used; Oswald paid the fare to get by bus south on Beckley to the Texas Theatre; the ticket remained in his pocket until found by Sims at 4:05.)

The problem is those five bullets. If Boyd planted those five bullets it is doubtful he would tell Sims that. The point here is to reduce the number of officers required to be corrupt in the Boyd & Sims 4:05 from two to one (only Boyd, not Sims), in a scenario in which those earlier searches happened and those five bullets were planted on Oswald at the 4:05.

As to motive to plant the five bullets--suppose Oswald in the Theatre did have on his person a fully-loaded, never fired revolver and also was innocent of killing Tippit. The killer of Tippit either had a non-fully-loaded revolver or one that had been reloaded from carrying bullets in his pocket, one or the other. Both of those inconsistent with an Oswald arrested with a fully loaded revolver and no bullets in his pocket (if so). By planting the five Winchester bullets on Oswald that would make Oswald fit better as the Tippit killer, showing a supply in his pocket from which he could have reloaded thereby explaining Oswald's fully-loaded revolver at time of arrest. Recall that Gerald Hill had displayed the six cartridges taken out of Oswald's revolver to news cameras so the fact of a fully-loaded revolver found on Oswald was already public information. Remember Leavelle saying it was going to be difficult to nail Oswald on JFK (in terms of evidence and proving it in court) but if they could wrap him up real tight on Tippit then they've got him? Could be a motive to "improve" the physical evidence on Oswald by planting five bullets, in order to help nail him, from officers who thought he was guilty anyway? (That seems to be the most common form of evidence-cooking logic when scandals come to light--just trying to be helpful in getting bad people put away!) 

Its that delay until 4:05 for a first search which is the tipping point for me. Is there an innocent explanation of that length of delay for a first search of Oswald?

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5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm

Mr. BALL - Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - Commission Exhibit 150.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - This is a shirt.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - What do you mean by "that is it?"
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Because they brought it out to the house and showed it.
Mr. BALL - I know. What do you mean by "that is it?"
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, because I can recognize it.
Mr. BALL - Recognize it as what?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, sir; see there?
Mr. BALL - Yes. You tell me what do you see here? What permits you to recognize it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I recognize---first thing I notice the elbow is out and then I saw---when the man brought it out and let me see it?
Mr. BALL - No, I am talking about---I am showing you this shirt now, and you said, "That is it." You mean---What do you mean by "that is it"?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is the one he had out there that day?
Mr. BALL - Who had it out there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Some Secret Service man.
Mr. BALL - He brought it out. Now, I am---you have seen this shirt then before?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Have you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.

Steve Thomas

 

Yep. She recognized the shirt as the one she was shown, not the one "Oswald" was wearing.

“Mrs. Bledsoe identified the shirt as the one Oswald was wearing and she stated that she was certain it was Oswald who boarded the bus.” ( Report, pg. 159 )

Seeing as she had a past connection to Oswald it seems unlikely that she could have been mistaken in her identification. However, her prior experience with Oswald consisted of his living with her for less than a week, during which time he was hardly ever around.

Besides her inclination to become dishonest at times, Mrs. Bledsoe had suffered a stroke ( 6 H 404 ) that apparently affected her memory much to the extent that she had to read from notes she had taken. ( ibid., pgs. 407-408 )

During her testimony, Mrs. Bledsoe was asked which bus she got on.

Mr. Ball. Which bus did you catch ?

Mrs. Bledsoe. Well, I don’t remember if it was the Marsalis or the Romana. ( 6 H 408 )

Mrs. Bledsoe didn’t even know which bus she took.

She described Oswald getting on the bus: “He looks like a maniac”. I didn’t look at him. I didn’t even want to know I seen him and I just looked off. He looked so bad in his face and his face was so distorted.” ( ibid., pg. 409 )

If his face was so distorted, how did she recognize him ?

More importantly, her testimony indicates that not only was her memory affected by her stroke, but her cognitive ability was as well.

Had Oswald been behaving so erratically it is unlikely that she would have been the only one to notice it.

One might ask how she could describe his face when she admitted she didn’t look at him. She also admitted that from her side-facing seat on the passenger’s side, she never faced him and repeated that she never looked at him. ( ibid. )

From her position, anyone entering the bus would have been visible from the rear and the left side as he passed in front of her from right to left and walked towards the rear of the bus.

During her testimony, she made bizarre claims that Oswald’s wife was Spanish ( ibid., pg. 408 ) and when he got on the bus, all the buttons on his shirt were torn off ( ibid., pg. 410 ).

I counted a conservative 22 times during her testimony where she was asked a question and could not remember.

But she remembered that shirt. Torn buttons and all.

She admitted that she never looked at him when he got off the bus. ( ibid. )

So how could she tell that the buttons were all torn off the shirt ?

When he got on the bus she was on his left side and the buttons were sewn into the right side of the shirt. ( 21 H 470 )

How could she see that the buttons on the other side of the shirt were missing ?

This was one of the Commission’s “star” witnesses, another example of a witness whose memory and cognitive ability was not good but gave the Commission the “positive identification” it needed — Oswald on the bus.

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Gil Jesus:

The Charles Truman (CT) Walker interview with the HSCA. How did you find it? I have searched online fruitlessly. 

I want to prepare a write up (yes another one) on LHO's wallets. Walker said he removed a wallet (billfold) from LHO back pocket, and then he asked LHO about Alek Hidell.

Others say they pulled the wallet from LHO's back pocket in the squad car on the way to the station.

Then there was the wallet at the Tippit crime scene. 

Three more wallets were found in the Paine house. 

 

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20 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Yep. She recognized the shirt as the one she was shown, not the one "Oswald" was wearing.

 

This was one of the Commission’s “star” witnesses, another example of a witness whose memory and cognitive ability was not good but gave the Commission the “positive identification” it needed — Oswald on the bus.

Gil,

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm

 

Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe was accompanied by her attorney, Miss Melody June Douthit.

Mr. BALL - And you have come down here in response to that letter, haven't you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present at this time?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.

 

Mr. BALL - Mrs. Bledsoe , this deposition will be written up by the reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is.
Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the signature?
Miss DOUTHIT - I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her to sign it.
Mr. BALL - Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive the signature?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.

 

Doesn’t sound like an attorney who’s working in the best interest of her client to me.

 

If you read the last third of Mary Bledsoe’s testimony, her attorney, Ms. Douthit spent a long time trying to get Mary Bledsoe to admit she actually witnessed Lee Oswald sign the register. Mary did her best to avoid saying that.

 

Steve Thomas

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On 5/5/2022 at 4:34 AM, Gil Jesus said:

So we have documents indicating that Oswald was searched TWICE before the transfer by Sims and Boyd. The first search resulted in his pockets being completely emptied. The second search verified that fact.

 

How do we know that the bus transfer and unfired rounds weren't removed in the first search?

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

How do we know that the bus transfer and unfired rounds weren't removed in the first search?

 

 

Because Sims and Boyd testified that THEY removed them in the showup room.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2022 at 4:43 AM, Gil Jesus said:

Because Sims and Boyd testified that THEY removed them in the showup room.

 

Thanks Gil. Now it all makes sense. What a find!

Somebody needs to point Jim Hargrove to this thread, once he's back. Hopefully he and John Armstrong will factor this new finding into their larger H&L theory. (Though I don't have high hopes for that. Armstrong became hostile when I pointed out that the second floor encounter didn't occur, because Oswald -- as it turns out -- was out on the steps during the p. parade. That was Oswald's alibi that the FBI covered up.)

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
I just sent a message to Jim Hargrove alerting him of this find.
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On 5/7/2022 at 6:54 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Gil Jesus:

The Charles Truman (CT) Walker interview with the HSCA. How did you find it? I have searched online fruitlessly. 

I want to prepare a write up (yes another one) on LHO's wallets. Walker said he removed a wallet (billfold) from LHO back pocket, and then he asked LHO about Alek Hidell.

Others say they pulled the wallet from LHO's back pocket in the squad car on the way to the station.

Then there was the wallet at the Tippit crime scene. 

Three more wallets were found in the Paine house. 

 

Ben, it gives the number

HSCA RIF # 180-10113-10256 and the page is page 5.

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Thanks again to Gil Jesus for all his brilliant work on this case! I don’t believe the cartridges were missed on the first search of Oswald either, but the transfer may be a different story.

According to the Official Story®, the transfer was found just after 4 pm on 11/22.  Dallas Transit System Division Superintendent F.F. Yates immediately indicated that transfer #004459 came from a book of transfers issued that morning to Cecil McWatters.  Was Yates part of the conspiracy?  This hardly seems to be made up because…..

Just two hours later, McWatters was staring at LHO in a police lineup.  Regardless of what you think of the bus and taxi evidence, if this was all invented, how did it start so quickly in the way it apparently did?  

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks again to Gil Jesus for all his brilliant work on this case! I don’t believe the cartridges were missed on the first search of Oswald either, but the transfer may be a different story.

According to the Official Story®, the transfer was found just after 4 pm on 11/22.  Dallas Transit System Division Superintendent F.F. Yates immediately indicated that transfer #004459 came from a book of transfers issued that morning to Cecil McWatters.  Was Yates part of the conspiracy?  This hardly seems to be made up because…..

Just two hours later, McWatters was staring at LHO in a police lineup.  Regardless of what you think of the bus and taxi evidence, if this was all invented, how did it start so quickly in the way it apparently did?  

 

Maybe the ticket was in a back pocket and so flat that the pocket seemed to be empty. Or in a shirt pocket and they didn't think to empty that.

 

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