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My 1995 Interview of Michael Paine


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It is curious that two men who never talked to each other come up with the same story. One in 1995, and the other 2 decades later. You can say that Frazier had a book to sell, but Paine did not. Also DPD officer George Butler told a Garrison staff member in 1968 that Fritz would have beaten up Oswald had Hosty not been in the interrogation room. I’m not satisfied! 

Edited by Denis Morissette
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On 5/9/2022 at 7:26 AM, Greg Doudna said:

A curiosity is that supposedly Michael Paine, even though he went with Ruth and Marina to the police station Fri eve, supposedly was never questioned there. Isn't that what has always been supposed and the accepted narrative all these years? Isn't a lack of record of any DPD questioning or statement of Michael Paine that eve when he was there (?--I cannot think of any?) slightly odd?

And yet just as in the immediate response to the assassination in which Fritz and police seriously scrutinized the Randle/Frazier family suspecting them of involvement and late that night Fritz personally browbeat and tried to pressure a confession of involvement out of Wesley Frazier . . . it would almost be only logical, and surprising if it had not been otherwise, that the Paines would not at that early stage also be comparably suspected by Fritz and co. Then all that needs to be supposed is that there was some heretofore unknown Fritz/Michael Paine interrogation Fri eve, not a benign asking for help in investigation of Oswald, but Fritz focusing in as harshly on Michael Paine himself as a suspect as Fritz did with Wesley Frazier that same evening, pressuring to obtain a rapid confession. This before the law enforcement narrative had yet narrowed to Oswald-alone which may have come about via LBJ/FBI intervention with DPD later that night or overnight. (Recall until stopped, asst. district attorney Alexander was drawing up papers to charge Oswald as part of a communist conspiracy in the killing of JFK, meaning larger than Oswald-alone.) And now I am wondering if it could be that Fritz not only threatened and browbeat Michael Paine just as he did with Frazier, but that slap could have happened that Michael in sobs told Lifton, and Michael all those years had not told, had not spoken of it, out of shame? (On analogy with women who have been victims of sexual assault who will not speak of it out of shame.) And the world never learns of this until Michael tells Lifton thirty years later, Michael still shaken by that memory breaking down into sobs?  

In that light I rechecked Michael Paine's Warren Commission testimony concerning what happened Fri eve at the police station. Note the questioning skips right over asking Michael what happened at the police station. Also, the original police taking of more than Oswald's belongings out of Ruth Paine's house on Fri including her file boxes, etc., may not have been simply a mistake, because at that point the police had no narrow focus on a theory of the case of Oswald only. And police taking property belonging to Ruth and Michael on Fri did not derive from a search warrant but from having received permission from Ruth to "come right in", interpreted somewhat elastically by police as consent to "take out of the house whatever we feel like taking".  

Mr. PAINE - My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package. 
Mr. LIEBELER - What else happened? 
Mr. PAINE - We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even. 
Mr. LIEBELER - This is the Dallas police officer? 
Mr. PAINE - Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects.
So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house? 
Mr. PAINE - No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any other conversations about this blanket? 
Mr. PAINE - No. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly Commission 142? 
Mr. PAINE - Not that I remember. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about? 
Mr. PAINE - No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry. 
Mr. LIEBELER - You went with the police? 
Mr. PAINE - We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and Irving and FBI, and what not. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before? 

And then later there is this in the testimony:

Mr. DULLES - Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert Oswald? 
Mr. PAINE - We only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. We both liked him at that time. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination? 
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe there is anything else that I know. 
Mr. LIEBELER - I have no more questions. 
The CHAIRMAN - Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles? 
Mr. DULLES - The only question I have in mind is as to what took place as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. Were you in the police station? 
Mr. PAINE - We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or 9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night. 
Mr. DULLES - You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you? 
Mr. PAINE - They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not know what he would ask me, so I did not see him. 
Mr. DULLES - You did not see him? 
Mr. PAINE - No. 
Mr. DULLES - Did your wife see him? 
Mr. PAINE - I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning hoping to see him. 
Mr. DULLES - There were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know? 
Mr. PAINE - Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.  

This Fri night would be when the Michael Paine/Fritz of the Michael Paine account to Lifton would have happened. And Michael Paine is not volunteering it in his testimony and except for one question from Dulles (who is not staff counsel) at the end, the Warren Commission staff counsel is not asking questions that would necessarily bring it out. In the only instance of a direct question concerning what happened with Michael Paine at the police station Friday night, Michael answers (a question re Fri night) with allusion to a complaint of Marguerite to Ruth (on Fri night) re the legal counsel issue for Oswald, and then Michael's phone call to the ACLU the next morning to follow up on that.

I can now see it as plausible and in character that Fritz could have slapped Michael, going that one only slight step beyond what happened with Frazier later that night, and Michael keeping it inside out of shame, then breaking down in sobs at the memory when telling Lifton thirty years later. I retract earlier disbelief thinking the slap could not be and Michael must have exaggerated. It is believable that it happened and I think it did happen.

Thanks.  I had not made the connection with Fritz's behavior towards Frazier.  But now I see why Frazier may have been quite fearful of Fritz.  On that score, here's another factoid: If memory serves, I recall FBI interviews -- (source, the Gemberling reports,  and possibly under the sub-section "Alleged Rifle Practice", which sometimes appeared in those reports) -- which described Oswald engaged in alleged rifle practice.  Either at a rifle range or some other location.   Now here's why I am writing this post:  in those FBI reports, rifles (plural) were being passed over a fence (and then fired); so another person was involved.    Most important, the FBI witness to this event stated that the second person was named "Frazier."   (Really!  The name "Frazier" was actually recalled.)

A lot of this material is now available at the Mary Ferrell Foundation, and name indexes can be used to locate these FBI pages.    If those few pages of FBI reports can be located, and if my recollection(s) are reasonably accurate, the inference to be drawn (i.e., intended to be drawn) was to be that --perhaps --Frazier was with Oswald on one (or more) occasions when Oswald engaged in rifle practice.  If so, that might explain his serious fear of being "connected" with Oswald, in a more incriminating context.   In other words, the source of Frazier's concern(s) wasn't just a matter of "driving to work with Oswald"; Frazier may have accompanied Oswald on an occasion when Oswald was engaged in rifle practice. (DSL, 6/22/22- 6 AM)

P.S. For the record: I believe LHO was the pre-selected patsy in the JFK affair; and that if he did in fact engage in rifle practice,  the purpose was to spoof up his image as a "dangerous" assassin. Let me put it another way: if Oswald did order a (or "the") rifle, and if this was part of the Dallas set-up, it would make no sense if there was no evidence of Oswald having actually used the rifle.  Shown some competence, etc.   Which brings us to another subject. . .

RIFLE PRACTICE.  As those who have studied all the FBI reports (and Dallas Morning News accounts) may be aware, there were not only accounts of Oswald practicing at a rifle range (and also at a Trinity River "riverbed" location), there was also the matter of his behavior at the rifle range: "wild-firing" at another person's target.  (How's that for creating a hard-to-forget scene?)   (Some of this was captured in interviews in Mark Lane's film).  Finally, there's the matter of Oswald's expended shells.  As I recall, the FBI collected quite a few shells, but there was no firing pin match -- which suggested to me that "Yes, it was Oswald," but Oswald may have had access to another rifle. (DSL 6/22/22 - 6:30 AM).

Edited by David Lifton
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1 hour ago, David Lifton said:

P.S. For the record: I believe LHO was the pre-selected patsy in the JFK affair; and that if he did in fact engage in rifle practice,  the purpose was to spoof up his image as a "dangerous" assassin. Let me put it another way: if Oswald did order a (or "the") rifle, and if this was part of the Dallas set-up, it would make no sense if there was no evidence of Oswald having actually used the rifle.  Shown some competence, etc.

If Oswald was engaging in rifle practice prior to the assassination, why was there no ammunition or rifle cleaning equipment found among his possessions? How does that "make sense?" If someone was trying to tell me that Oswald was practicing painting yet he had no paints, brushes, canvases, ect. among his possessions I would be equally skeptical. Especially if Oswald was also on record as strenuously denying owning any art materials at all.

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On 6/22/2022 at 7:57 AM, Denny Zartman said:

If Oswald was engaging in rifle practice prior to the assassination, why was there no ammunition or rifle cleaning equipment found among his possessions? How does that "make sense?" If someone was trying to tell me that Oswald was practicing painting yet he had no paints, brushes, canvases, ect. among his possessions I would be equally skeptical. Especially if Oswald was also on record as strenuously denying owning any art materials at all.

The FBI did extensive investigation of LHO practicing with the (or "a") rifle.  They also did canvassing of gun shops to determine where he might have purchased ammunition. As I recall, there were pages and pages of such reports.(Have you not examined all of the Gemberling FBI reports?)

The evidence that LHO ordered a rifle (in March 1963) was found in the microfilmed business records of Klein's Dept. Store, in Chicago.

N.B.: the correct spelling of the abbreviation of "etcetera" is "etc." (not "ect.").

N.B. (2)  I am unaware of any evidence that LHO had any rifle cleaning equipment. 

 

 

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On 6/9/2022 at 5:42 AM, Denis Morissette said:

It is curious that two men who never talked to each other come up with the same story. One in 1995, and the other 2 decades later. You can say that Frazier had a book to sell, but Paine did not. Also DPD officer George Butler told a Garrison staff member in 1968 that Fritz would have beaten up Oswald had Hosty not been in the interrogation room. I’m not satisfied! 

I found something more on the Fritz-Frazier interaction that I do not think has previously been recognized. It is a transcription of a clip from the poor audio of the HSCA interview of Frazier. The transcription is by Richard Gilbride and is acknowledged to be poor quality so could have errors. Gilbride interprets the below as a previously-unknown encounter of which Frazier has never spoken since in which, as Gilbride puts it, "Frazier stood next to Oswald in a DPD lineup--an incident never before reported". I say the below is Frazier speaking of his harrowing interrogation by Fritz, of which Frazier has repeatedly spoken. Moriarty is the HSCA questioner. (The reference in Gilbride's transcription below to a "Day" speaking I do not understand.)

Frazier: He was standing next to me. He was pretty close to somewhere around two inches--where they could measure this thing.

Moriarty: Two feet.

Frazier: Two feet?

Day: It was two feet.

Frazier: Right. And--and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said--I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that. (Richard Gilbride, JFK Inside Job [2021], p. 84)

I believe the "he" in the bolded above in this likely garbled transcription is Fritz--not Oswald--in Frazier's telling. Something about Fritz telling that Oswald had been positively identified as the assassin, maybe something about the package and the rifle, and Fritz boring in on Frazier having driven the car that morning that carried it. Oswald never spoke language of "owning" Dallas, but that might be something Fritz could say in a context of an intimidating interrogation. 

The interrogation by Fritz was the traumatizing event for Frazier. I read Frazier as speaking here of his known experience with Fritz, rather than some event of which there is no other trace of reference.

Edited by Greg Doudna
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6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I found something more on the Fritz-Frazier interaction that I do not think has previously been recognized. It is a transcription of a clip from the poor audio of the HSCA interview of Frazier. The transcription is by Richard Gilbride and is acknowledged to be poor quality so could have errors. Gilbride interprets the below as a previously-unknown encounter of which Frazier has never spoken since in which, as Gilbride puts it, "Frazier stood next to Oswald in a DPD lineup--an incident never before reported". I say the below is Frazier speaking of his harrowing interrogation by Fritz, of which Frazier has repeatedly spoken. Moriarty is the HSCA questioner. (The reference in Gilbride's transcription below to a "Day" speaking I do not understand.)

Frazier: He was standing next to me. He was pretty close to somewhere around two inches--where they could measure this thing.

Moriarty: Two feet.

Frazier: Two feet?

Day: It was two feet.

Frazier: Right. And--and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said--I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that. (Richard Gilbride, JFK Inside Job [2021], p. 84)

I believe the "he" in the bolded above in this likely garbled transcription is Fritz--not Oswald--in Frazier's telling. Something about Fritz telling that Oswald had been positively identified as the assassin, maybe something about the package and the rifle, and Fritz boring in on Frazier having driven the car that morning that carried it. Oswald never spoke language of "owning" Dallas, but that might be something Fritz could say in a context of an intimidating interrogation. 

The interrogation by Fritz was the traumatizing event for Frazier. I read Frazier as speaking here of his known experience with Fritz, rather than some event of which there is no other trace of reference.

I have the full interview on tape. I’m amazed I don’t remember that. I’ll check.

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12 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

John Armstrong's exhaustive research demonstrated

that there is no evidence Oswald owned

a rifle or a handgun.

 

Joseph, I have long had doubts about the rifle and handgun ownership issues myself, but I believer a defence attorney would be hard pressed when confronted with the Dallas Crime lab evidence obtained on the 22nd., that they lifted a right palm print from the underside of the gun barrel and a couple of fingerprints from the trigger and magazine housing.  These prints were identified as belonging to Oswald.  As well as Lieutenant Day who lifted and compared the prints, Crime Lab detective Livingstone and Crime Lab detective Pete Barnes also checked and confirmed the match.

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3 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

I have the full interview on tape. I’m amazed I don’t remember that. I’ll check.

Here is what Gilbride says concerning the location on the tape: "The following excerpt (IV-18) adds a bombshell detail about what Oswald may have carried (this was mixed among several duplicate recordings on the second side of the Archives' Tape 3; it seemed to fit with the content of Tape 4). . . [transcript excerpt follows in which according to Gilbride Frazier is twice heard referring to the package as a "briefcase"] . . . In the next revelation [the one I say refers to Fritz], also on IV-18 we learn that . . ."

If in the best case you can find it and give your own transcript of what you hear (or say how much of Gilbride's transcription you can verify for accuracy), that would be fantastic. 

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Not to disparage or disrespect Buell Frazier but his testimonial and public appearance speaking efforts were to some people sometimes kind of hard to watch and follow at times.

He would usually take his time to begin speaking, then slowly get to his point. Often pausing in mid-sentence as if to re-remember things.

His vocabulary was relatively limited and I think he was aware of and perhaps self-conscious about this.

Some made fun of Frazier as a slow eyed, slow talking, backwoods hick.

Yet, to me, Frazier's down home country boy upbringing and manner of speaking made me sense that he was inherently more honest that slick talking city folk.

No way Frazier made up the story of Fritz gettin all red faced and raising his arm and hand to slap some fear into him regarding his denial of knowin anything about no part of Oswald's supposed crimes.

I am certain Frazier wasn't the kind to make up a story like that and risk being challenged on it for years to come.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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This is the full interview. Below is a summary I made. The times I put on the left is for each individual cassette. At certain points, I indicate the time on the right that matches the YouTube video. If you reply to this post, please don`t use the quote function because it's going to make a crazy long reply. Some parts are better than others. I recorded this with good equipment at NARA. The squeezing noise the tape at times, very tight tape, was incredible. I could hear it 200 feet from the cassette player. 

If I heard properly, Frazier did not mention the physical threat made to him. Listen at 29:05 and 51:30 and 1:23:24 up to 1:24:33. Do you full transcript of it? In the tape, the HSCA investigator indicates he would give Frazier a separate audio tape and a transcript of the interview. Frazier told me he does not have any of it. I think he never listened to this interview. I will use Audacity to enhance those portions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhPJBfLxy8

 

CASSETTE 1, SIDE 1 (45 minutes)

Starts with squizzy voices

Corresponds to Larry Rivera’s transcript he entitled “TAPE 3”.

 

CASSETTE 1, SIDE 1 (45 minutes)

Starts with squizzy voices

Corresponds to Larry Rivera’s transcript he entitled “TAPE 3”.

0:30. Frazier describes the action in Dealey Plaza when the motorcade passed by

2:43: Frazier: First shot.

3:23: Frazier: Two more shots.

4:15: Did you keep standing there on the steps after you were told JFK had been shot?

4:35: You were standing there with Lovelady and Shelly?

4:48. Frazier: “No, I did not”. He then describes what he did right after the shots.

6:00. After all that, what did you do?

6:20: Frazier describes the action in Dealey Plaza and the shots.

7:15: Where did the shots come from?

7:45. Frazier: Came from my right-hand side and above.

8:02: Are you in the picture? (Interviewer is referring to Altgens 6)

8:23: So the shots came from the building?

9:26: Did the sound of the shots all seem to be coming from the same place?

10:00. Frazier: Yes.

11:26. Frazier told himself to stay where he was in order to not attract attention and look suspicious. Shelly asked everyone to stay where they are.

13:23. Frazier went down in the basement.

14:42: Frazier went to see his father at the hospital.  

16:28. Two detectives were waiting for him.

19:47. Location of the hospital?

20:11. Frazier: They took me down to the Irving Police Department. They questioned me. They took me down to the DPD.

20:59: Frazier: Fritz came in. No respect for Fritz because of the way he treated him.

28:39: Did they tell you they had Oswald? 

Frazier: “No”

23:48: When did you find out that Oswald was in custody?

24:25: Did Mr. Shelly tell you to go home?

Frazier: “No”

24:36. Did you see JFK get shot?

Frazier: “No”

24:54: You stayed there with the ladies?

Frazier: “Right”. 

Did you go back in the building or just stayed there to see what happened7

25:04: Frazier: We stayed right there for a good while. 

25:08. Did you see Lee coming out of the building at that time?

25:17: Frazier: No, I did not.

25:20: Did you know Lee was out of the building?

Frazier: No, I did not. Discusses this until 25:56.

25:56 to 26:18: Discussion on employees’ whereabouts.

26:18: Policemen’s movements after the shots

27:00: They let you go, and you went to Irving?

27:08. But at that time, you knew that Oswald had been among the missing?

Frazier: “Yes”

27:08. Did you discuss that with anybody?

Frazier: “No. We watched TV and did not say too many things”

27:45. Frazier: “I went home first, then to the hospital”

28:14. Did you know about Tippit?

Frazier: “No. I did not know”

28:54: Was there a broadcast of the description of Oswald at that time? Or did you know that Lee was being sought?

Frazier: “No”

29:06. Frazier: “I will tell you this. I knew Lee had been in Russia. I told myself, “Oh my God”.

29:52. Did they give a reason for taking you in custody?

30:02. Frazier: The detectives told me, “We’re sure that you know what happened” 

30:47: While you were driving, did you think about the curtain rods?

Frazier: “No”

31:06: When did you first think about those curtain rods?

Frazier: They started asking me about a package that I could have seen.

31:33. When you went back home, did you see __________________?

Frazier: I did not see any. 

31:49: Did you get any problems getting back home? Did you see anybody arrested? 

32:34: Frazier: The detectives had been at my sister’s house for a search.

32:44. Discussion on the location of his sister’s house relative to Paine's house.

34:00. Last time you saw Lee, was he nervous?

34:26: You two talked about JFK’s visit?

35:08. Frazier: Lee was himself.

35:23. But Lee knew the president was coming?

Frazier: “Right”

35:46. When you were with Lovelady in the doorway, did they come back right after the shots?

36:03: Did they tell you what they had seen?

36:17. Were you with Junior at that time?

Frazier: Don’t remember

36:31. Do you remember talking to Lovelady at that time?

Frazier: Don’t remember

36:52. Were the police in the building __________________________at that time?

37:12: Have you ever taken pictures with Lee? Was anybody taking pictures?

37:29. Motorcycles’ backfires

37:58: Did you see a third motorcycle? The interviewer is referring to the motorcycle that turned onto Elm Street, but stopped. 

38:57. Did you see someone faint? They had to call an ambulance.

39:24: Remember someone coming by and picking somebody up?

39:39. Remember seeing a commercial vehicle? An automobile all painted up. The interviewer is referring to Honest Joe.

Frazier: “No”

40:31. Before you lived at your sister’s, where did you live?

41:00. Interaction with the DPD. Line-ups. Polygraph test.

42:33. Did you have any problem starting your car?

Ends with “It won’t hold very long before…”







 

CASSETTE 1, SIDE 2 (14 minutes)   (45:15 in my montage of the full interview)

0:02. Did you ever borrow a car from the family?

0:12. What cars were owned by family and in-law family?

3:40. How was Lovelady dressed on that day? How old was he? Details on Lovelady.

5:22. Lovelady’s car

5:58. Did you have a mustache?

Have you ever been told you look like LHO?

6:20. The way Captain Fritz’ treated you. Did he try to make you say certain things? (51:30)

7:18. Questions on the curtain rods.

7:38. What did the package look like?

11:38. How did Lee carry the package?

13:35. Frazier: You can break a weapon down.

Ends with: “Would it be safe to say that he was carrying….”

END











 

CASSETTE 2, LABELED “SIDE 2”, BUT IS REALLY SIDE 1 (44 minutes) (59:38 in my montage of the full interview)

0:10. “It’s now 5PM. We’re taking a break”

0:20. Back to the discussion on the package.

0:43. Have you ever seen a rifle?

0:53. At what time did you get to the hospital?

Frazier thinks he saw that on TV when he arrived home.

1:08. You knew JFK and Tippit got shot before you arrived at the hospital?

1:50. At the hospital, did you know that Tippit had been shot?

Frazier thinks he saw that on the news, not sure.

2:05: At the hospital, did you know they arrested Oswald?

Frazier: No Sir. I did not know. But I heard about someone held at the Texas Theater. 

3:25. Did you know where Oswald lived in Oak Cliff?

3:45. The people who took you from the hospital were from which organization?

4:25. Who interrogated you at the DPD? Polygraph test and interrogation

5:15: Did you get any brutality during the interrogation? (1:04:02)

Frazier: No sir, but very close.

5:50. Discussion on the package replica for the Warren Commission by Frazier and his sister.

7:58. People missing from the TSBD? Roll call.

8:30. Who did you know was missing?

8:47. You knew Oswald was missing?

9:20. When you really knew that they had arrested Oswald, did you get scared?

9:30. Frazier: Yes, I did.

8:55. When you were at the hospital, were you worried Oswald had done something before you learned of his arrest?

10:52. Did you know it was Lee who got arrested when you were at the hospital?

11:23: Shelly and Lovelady: Their movements when the limousine passed by

12:15. Did they move to the curb before the motorcade came?

13:00. Where were you standing exactly when the motorcade turned the corner?

14:15. Lovelady or Oswald in the photo? The interviewer refers to Altgens 6. Does the picture correspond to the first shot?

18:20. There are windows on the first floor. Was it possible to look out those windows? Were you there at any time looking out those windows?

19:46: You remember talking to Lovelady, Junior or Jarman inside the building?

19:54: When did you last see Oswald in the building before the motorcade?

20:28. Frazier: First floor. Checkered floor.

20:53. What direction did Lee go down?

22:02. Did you have a conversation with Lee at that time? 

Frazier: Not in my knowledge.

22:10. Could anyone go on the elevator and operate it himself?

22:53. When you went to work that day, can you remember when you________?

Frazier: I don’t remember.

23:58. Which official agencies interrogated you? 

Frazier: Can’t remember other than Rose and Stovall

Discussion on Captain Fritz

24:57. Was your home searched?

25:38. Search warrant?

25:48. Sister was also taken down to the police station.

27:10. Discussion on when the police picked him up at the hospital.

28:20. There must have been a conversation at home when you came home. What did your family tell the policemen who searched the house without a search warrant?

20:48. Discussion on Frazier’s 303 rifle and shotgun.

30:02. Did your mom ask you what happened?

30:27. Did anybody try to reach you at the hospital?

30:55. Have your read O’Toole’s book The Assassination Tapes?

34:57. __________ back door?

35:30. Ruby shooting Oswald must have been the talk of the day.

37:18. The _______ was still sealed off?

INAUDIBLE UNTIL 39:28.

39:28. Remember Charles Givens?

40:32. Has Lee ever asked you or anyone to cash a cheque for him?

41:57. Discussion on Lee’s appearance.

42:35. Lee had a nickname?

42:48. Did you have a nickname?

43:40. Ever worked for the federal government? (1:43:18)

44:10. Ends with: Frazier: In the army, they trained me…

ENDS AT 44:18. “Yes, Sir”

 

CASSETTE 2, LABELED “SIDE 1”, BUT IS REALLY SIDE 2 (12 minutes) ( 1:44:01 in my montage of the full interview)

44:22. “Yes Sir… You’re OK?” 

44:35. Frazier discusses cooking.

48:55. Can you elaborate on the danger you might put yourself in talking to people about the case?

50:03. Any threats? Warnings?

52:20. Jim Garrison

INAUDIBLE

56:12. Interviewers give Frazier a business card and asked Frazier to call them if anything.

ENDS OF THE INTERVIEW WITH “Thank you very much”. (1:56:26)

 

CASSETTE 3, SIDE 1 (45 minutes) (1:56:26 in my montage of the full interview)

0:00. “A little test here”

00:25: We’re in the office of Attorney Beck.

1:30. Another recording is being done that will be given to Frazier along with a transcript.

2:18: Frazier introduces himself.

4:20. Can you elaborate on how you met Lee? Discussion on where the Paines and Frazier lived.

7:50. Routine of driving Lee to work. Questions on where Lee lived in Dallas.

11:52: Frazier: Lee was an intelligent man.

Interviewer asks for examples of that.

Until 13:30, Frazier talks about Lee’s ability to do the work at the TSBD.

13:30: Did it occur to you why such an educated man would be working at the Depository?

15:06: What kind of car did you have at that time?

15:55: Oswald drove?

19:20: What was your particular duty at the TSBD?

21:32: When did you start working at the TSBD? How did you get the job? Discussion on the other building on Houston Street.

26:33. Frazier: I worked with Junior. Discusses other employees. 

28:03: Jack Doughtery, a large man. 250 pounds. 

29:00. An old Black man, Pipper.

30:00. “Let’s take a break here”.

30:50: We were talking about a man named Piper.

31:36: Bill Shelly still at TSBD?

33:19. Talked to Lovelady lately?

37:42: Frazier discusses his lunch routine at the TSBD.

38:52: Did you once in a while eat out during lunch?

39:26: Did Lee eat out?

40:15: Did Lee buy things off the truck?

42:32: Did Lee have a watch?

42:45: What did Lee call you?

43:26. Frazier: Lee respected me.

44:45: CUTS at “That’s interesting. He was what?” (2:41:41)

 

CASSETTE 3, SIDE 2 (13 minutes) (2:41:41 in my montage of the full interview)

Resumes with “That’s interesting. He was what?”

INAUDIBLE UNTIL 46:05.

46:05: How did Lee react to criticism?

46:50: What kind of worker was Lee?

49:48: Until when did you stay at the TSBD after November 22, 1963?

Frazier: Until 1965.

50:10: Let’s talk about November 22, 1963.

52:08. How about the 7th floor?

54:48: Where was this checkered place?

Frazier: First floor.

54:56: Were you required to wear special equipment?

56:05. “Let’s take a break. It’s 3:33 PM”

56:28. You gave the impression that you knew Lee before he got the job at the TSBD.

57:33. Did Lee have more than one kid?

57:43: How many cars did the Paines have? (2:54:10)

57:55. Have you ever seen Lee drive? 

58:08: When  you were in the car with Lee, what were you talking about? (2:54:37)

 END WITH “He told me…” CUTS. Rest of that side of the cassette is blank. (2:55:54)

CASSETTE 4, SIDE 1 (45 minutes) (2:56:05 in my version of the full interview)

0:00. Introduction by interviewer: “We are picking up where we left off. Lawyer not present”. Side 2”

0:15. Did Lee have trouble with his wife?

0:27: Frazier: “No”

1:03: Ever knew of a 14-year-old boy traveling with Lee?

1:18: Where did you usually park your car when you went to work?

1:47: Curtain rods

2:23: Can you tell me about those curtain rods?

2:57: Just before going there, let’s talk about your car. Did you lock it up?

3:18: Were you in the Reserve?

3:55. Frazier. I went in the US Army in 1965 for 2 years.

5:15. You said you knew John, Junior. 

5:27. Can you remember what agency helped you get the job at the TSBD?

5:43. Do you know how Lee got his job at the TSBD?

8:03. Did Lee have the occasion to go to the other building?

8:17. Who was Lee’s direct supervisor?

8:33. If we showed you photos of people around or in the TSBD, would you be able to identify who was working at the TSBD?

9:27. Have you seen since November 22, 1963 pictures taken in Dealey Plaza that did not surface in newspapers?

9:50. Frazier: “No”

10:40: What time did the food truck usually come by?

11:33. Between 9:30AM and 10AM.

11:40. Where did Lee usually eat his lunch?

12:03: How did Lee and Shelly get along?

12:28. How did Jarman and Lee get along?

12:40. How about Shields?

13:29. Did Shields know Lee and get along well?

14:18. Lovelady kept working at the TSBD? Did he leave first?

14:35. Did Lovelady discuss the death of Lee?

16:15. What was the general feeling of the people in the building? Did they feel  he did it or not? (3:12:18)

17:05. Did Lee talk about going to Mexico? (3:13:11)

17:11: Frazier: “No”

17:32. Have you given a written statement that you signed? (3:13:30)

18:50. “Let’s take a break here. About 3 PM”

19:07. Did you know Officer Tippit? (3:15:09)

19:22. Did you know Jack Ruby?

19:38. Did Lee smoke?

19:54. Did Lee wear glasses?

20:21. Did Lee wear clothes different from the other employees?

22:50. When you applied for your job at the TSBD, did you have to give some references?

23:28. Did your co-workers talk about hunting season, guns?

Frazier: I did not discuss guns with Lee.

25:28. No discussion on guns? Trading guns?

26:48: In 1963, did you own a gun?

Frazier: A 303 and a shotgun.

28:52. Did you meet Marina or Marguerite?

Frazier: Marguerite, no. Marina, I can’t remember. I have seen Marina in the neighborhood.

29:45: Have you seen Lee reading some political pamphlets?

Frazier: No.

30:38. Chronology of November 21 and 22, 1963.

32:10. Curtain rods.

39:43: When was the last time you saw Lee?

Frazier: Some time before lunch.

49:10. Frazier. I was on the steps with Shelly and Lovelady.

40:32. Back to November 21, 1963.

41:07. Did Lee indicate where he would get the curtain rods from?

Frazier: No.

41:53 until 44:15. Back to November 22, 1963. When did Lee arrive at your house? Discussion on Lee’s movement around the car in Irving in the morning.

44:15. “You always locked the car? “Discussion on the lock problem.

Frazier: One of the doors at the back did not lock.

ENDS WITH “He figured that one out. All right.” (3:41:04)

 

CASSETTE 4, SIDE 2 (10 minutes) (3:41:00 in my montage of the full interview)

Starts with “You always lock the car. “

1:00. You’re getting out of the car, and you want to add power to the battery.

1:38. You remember how Lee was dressed on that day?

3:00. Did you see Lee at lunch time?

3:13. “Let’s take a break. 3:38PM”

3:27. The attorney is still absent.

4:01. Did you see Lee at lunch time?

Frazier does not remember.

4:28. You decided to go outside to see the motorcade with Lovelady and Shelly. Remember anyone else with you? (3:45:36)

4:46. Frazier: Some of the women who worked upstairs.

4:57: One of the ladies was a large one, a blond one. Don’t know her name, but Shelly does know her.

Frazier describes the activity in Dealey Plaza.

8:15. Suggested to the heavy-set lady to stay on the steps instead of risking getting hurt on the street.

9:38. Discusses motorcycle backfires

10:15. The motorcade came around the corner.

9:30: We are running out of tape.

10:25. “We’re taking a break here at 3:53 PM”



















 

ORDER OF THE TAPES

Cassette 1, Side 1

Starts: Action in Dealey Plaza

Ends: Problems with car battery

Cassette 1, Side 2:

Starts: Have you borrowed a car? (Same interviewer)

Ends: Package

Cassette 2, Side 1

Starts: Package

Ends: “Yes Sir!”

Cassette 2, Side 2

Starts: “Yes Sir!”

Ends: Investigators give Frazier their business cards and ends the interview seemingly for the day.

Cassette 3, Side 1

Starts: “A little test here. We are in Frazier’s attorney’s office”

Ends: “Interesting”

Cassette 3, Side 2

Starts: “Interesting”

Ends: Frazier and Lee in the car

Cassette 4, Side 1

Starts: “We are picking up where we left off… Side 2”

Ends: Car lock issue

Cassette 4, Side 2

Starts: Activity on November 22, 1963

Ends: Taking a break at 3:53 PM.

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Denis thanks for the great outline of the contents of the HSCA Frazier tapes. The link to the audio goes to a page that says "Video unavailable. This video is private." Are you able to make that accessible? What do you suppose Gilbride means by saying "IV-18" on the second side of tape 3, correlated to your numbered system--the location of the excerpt of interest?

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12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Denis thanks for the great outline of the contents of the HSCA Frazier tapes. The link to the audio goes to a page that says "Video unavailable. This video is private." Are you able to make that accessible? What do you suppose Gilbride means by saying "IV-18" on the second side of tape 3, correlated to your numbered system--the location of the excerpt of interest?

Are you able to watch it now? I'm trying to figuring out the IV-18 now.

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