The incredible allegation that Ruth Paine did surveillance on Castro sympathizers

[Steve Roe]

51 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one Gene.

 

Greg's post above is another of his red herrings.

We are talking about file boxes that were located by Buddy W and taken to the Sheriff's office in his car.

Those boxes were  full of material relating to pro Castro sympathizers and which Jeff and I showed were, in all probability, not Oswald's.   The contents of which disappeared into the ether.

GD can bloviate with any DPD BS excuse he wants to.  They have about as much weight as what the police manufactured for the Speculations and Rumors section of the Warren Report.

Greg Doudna, I see DiEugenio's Wolf Pack has descended on you for posting real documents and evidence. You know you can't do that in here, they get upset. By the way Greg, did you know that Luby's Cafeteria where Michael Paine went after church to have conversations was a "Hot-Bed of Subversive Commies"? Yes, secret Castro Operatives were chowing down on Fried Chicken and Mash Potatoes while covertly plotting to overthrow the Government. They willingly gave a complete stranger, Michael Paine their names. Oh yeah, and Michael Paine filled up 7 metal file boxes of hundreds of Dallas area subversives.

Of course, this is major stupid. You proved it, and it's funny to watch these lame excuses trying to pin the Paine's on anything nefarious. 

Now DiEugenio is changing his story again (he always does when caught telling these tales) blaming Michael Paine. Gee, don't you think he would have considered that long before getting on camera and telling the world? 

 

[James DiEugenio]

It's also a big red flag for me when someone tries to discredit you, as I very much respect your work and opinions.

Gene

Thanks for this Gene, much appreciated.

I am going to be reviewing Max Good's film pretty soon at K and K.

Isn't it amazing that it took this long, well over fifty years, for someone to do something like this.

If anything shows you how powerful the cover up was....

You have to wonder, what if Carol Hewitt had never come along?

 

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg Doudna, I see DiEugenio's Wolf Pack has descended on you for posting real documents and evidence. You know you can't do that in here, they get upset. By the way Greg, did you know that Luby's Cafeteria where Michael Paine went after church to have conversations was a "Hot-Bed of Subversive Commies"? Yes, secret Castro Operatives were chowing down on Fried Chicken and Mash Potatoes while covertly plotting to overthrow the Government. They willingly gave a complete stranger, Michael Paine their names. Oh yeah, and Michael Paine filled up 7 metal file boxes of hundreds of Dallas area subversives.

Of course, this is major stupid. You proved it, and it's funny to watch these lame excuses trying to pin the Paine's on anything nefarious. 

Now DiEugenio is changing his story again (he always does when caught telling these tales) blaming Michael Paine. Gee, don't you think he would have considered that long before getting on camera and telling the world? 

I found it particularly unethical that DiEugenio or Good, whichever one it was, failed to disclose in "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" that the only source for the 1963 claim of seven metal file boxes filled with Castro sympathizers names repudiated that claim in 1964. Failure to disclose that--a major, major material omission, to put it mildly, in a film featuring DiEugenio citing that as one of the film's most serious accusations against Ruth Paine-- is just unethical (failure to disclose exculpatory evidence). Thanks for the lighter note on the Luby's Cafeteria "Hot-Bed of Subversive Commies".  

[Paul Brancato]

14 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I found it particularly unethical that DiEugenio or Good, whichever one it was, failed to disclose in "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" that the only source for the 1963 claim of seven metal file boxes filled with Castro sympathizers names repudiated that claim in 1964. Failure to disclose that--a major, major material omission, to put it mildly, in a film featuring DiEugenio citing that as one of the film's most serious accusations against Ruth Paine-- is just unethical (failure to disclose exculpatory evidence). Thanks for the lighter note on the Luby's Cafeteria "Hot-Bed of Subversive Commies".  

Someone should do a study of how many claims were repudiated by the Dallas Police and FBI. It’s first day evidence vs latter day testimony. It’s easy for Cops to change things - they do it all the time. 

[Greg Doudna]

On this:

It should further be noted that several metal cases of correspondence of Ruth Paine's were inadvertently taken by the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963, under the mistaken impression that they were correspondence of Lee Oswald's. This correspondence was examined by Special Agents Ronald E. Brinkley, Ben S. Harrison, and Leland D. Stephens. This correspondence was examined again on December 5, 1963, by Special Agents James P. Hosty, Jr., and Warren C. De Brueys at the Dallas Police Property Room. This correspondence reflected that Mrs. Ruth Hyde Paine is apparently a sincere Quaker and believes in God. Mrs. Paine, in one letter, made a statement that we should help Latin America to prevent Latin America from becoming Communist controlled. This correspondence also showed that Ruth Paine was concerned with aiding persons less fortunate than herself."   

Two commenters have taken strong exception to the underlined words. And yet the words, as stated, are accurate, and nobody here will disagree with that, in terms of the operative words in bold if read as description of the correspondence. Everyone here will agree that that is how Ruth Paine's correspondence reads.

Where people are angered is that the FBI agent writing this description did not add an attack on Ruth Paine's character on the basis of things extraneous to Ruth Paine's correspondence, in this written report describing Ruth Paine's correspondence.

[Greg Doudna]

3 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Someone should do a study of how many claims were repudiated by the Dallas Police and FBI. It’s first day evidence vs latter day testimony. It’s easy for Cops to change things - they do it all the time. 

Yes. Someone should also do a study of how many whoppers that never were true in the first place got said that first weekend by Dallas Police prior to later clarification.

The issue is that film--either DiEugenio failed to tell Good, or DiEugenio did tell Good and Good failed to put it in the film, whichever it was--misrepresents to the viewer by leaving out that the claim was retracted by the only officer who made it. And this was no minor detail in the film. It was one of the key accusations of Ruth Paine in the closing interview with Ruth Paine in the film.

It would be like writing a story about the Abraham Bolden story and leaving out that one of the main witnesses against him later recanted his testimony. Whether that exonerates Bolden of his conviction might still be argued, but it surely is relevant for any ethical reporter to disclose if reporting that case and the original testimony of that witness in making Bolden look guilty. That's my point.

[Greg Doudna]

 

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one Gene.

Greg's post above is another of his red herrings.

We are talking about file boxes that were located by Buddy W and taken to the Sheriff's office in his car.

Those boxes were  full of material relating to pro Castro sympathizers and which Jeff and I showed were, in all probability, not Oswald's.   The contents of which disappeared into the ether.

GD can bloviate with any DPD BS excuse he wants to.  They have about as much weight as what the police manufactured for the Speculations and Rumors section of the Warren Report.

That is not true Jim DiEugenio.

 

The metal file boxes in Buddy Walther's trunk were not taken to the Sheriff's office nor did their contents disappear into the ether

Tagg, Brush With History, p. 30:

"4:30. At this point, Walthers put Marina, the kids, and the Paines in his car, and with all the evidence and witnesses aboard drove back to the police station where he turned it all over to Will Fritz."

DPD officer Stovall:

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? 
Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office. 
Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you? 
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children. 
Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police? 

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. 

Deputy sheriff Oxford:

"We also found about 7 metal boxes which contained pamphlets and literature from abroad. Also, there were cameras and film found. All of this was brought to the City Hall along with Mr. and Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald. The children were also brought along. We called Sheriff Decker and he told us to leave all of the evidence at the City Hall and report back to the Sheriff's Office. Upon arriving back at the Sherff's Department we then..."

Deputy sheriff Weatherford:

"We then loaded all of our findings into our car and brought them and Mr. Michael Payne, taking him and findings to the Dallas Police Station to the Homicide Division."

Deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers:

Mr. WALTHERS. (. . .) They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station. 
Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? 
Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene.  

(Links to all sources quoted here are in my earlier post.)

Edited May 24, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[James DiEugenio]

LOL, ROTF.

Unethical?  LMAO.

Using that word in relation to the DPD is an oxymoron.

Stuff like this really makes me wonder about GD.

Its almost as funny as his charge of 'Garrisonism".  Which sounds straight out of Paul Hoch.  

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

That is not true Jim DiEugenio.

 

The metal file boxes in Buddy Walther's trunk were not taken to the Sheriff's office nor did their contents disappear into the ether

Tagg, Brush With History, p. 30:

"4:30. At this point, Walthers put Marina, the kids, and the Paines in his car, and with all the evidence and witnesses aboard drove back to the police station where he turned it all over to Will Fritz."

DPD officer Stovall:

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? 
Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office. 
Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you? 
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children. 
Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police? 

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. 

Deputy sheriff Oxford:

"We also found about 7 metal boxes which contained pamphlets and literature from abroad. Also, there were cameras and film found. All of this was brought to the City Hall along with Mr. and Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald. The children were also brought along. We called Sheriff Decker and he told us to leave all of the evidence at the City Hall and report back to the Sheriff's Office. Upon arriving back at the Sherff's Department we then..."

Deputy sheriff Weatherford:

"We then loaded all of our findings into our car and brought them and Mr. Michael Payne, taking him and findings to the Dallas Police Station to the Homicide Division."

Deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers:

Mr. WALTHERS. (. . .) They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station. 
Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? 
Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene.  

(Links to all sources quoted here are in my earlier post.)

7 metal file cabinets per Sherriff's Deputy Oxford on 11/22/63, Not the three you claim reviewed by the DPD via the FBI on 11/26 in your earlier post???

[James DiEugenio]

Are we really supposed to think he does not know the difference or what happened?

BTW, this is right out of the Warren Report, Rumors and Speculation section on p. 666. 

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

LOL, ROTF.

Unethical?  LMAO.

Using that word in relation to the DPD is an oxymoron.

I'm afraid you misunderstand Jim DiEugenio. The unethical referred to your behavior, if you did not tell Max Good that the source for your broadcast accusation against Ruth Paine in that film, repudiated it, such that he aired that without that disclosure to the viewer. How you would object if the same was done to Oswald or to you. Hypocrite. 

And you respond with cackling and ad hominem and attempts to drive me from this forum (which may succeed). Rather than take it as the learning moment it could be.

Also, I think highly of Paul Hoch, but the term "Garrisonism" is my own invention so far as I know.

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

7 metal file cabinets per Sherriff's Deputy Oxford on 11/22/63, Not the three you claim reviewed by the DPD via the FBI on 11/26 in your earlier post???

You have asked this question about a hundred times now. The 3 reviewed were the 3 of the 7 with papers. The other 4 did not have papers. What part of that are you not understanding. 

[Greg Doudna]

 

Where is the "treasonous and criminal" of Ruth Paine? What did she ever do to deserve that language?

"it's a red flag for me that anyone would try to exonerate or defend the Paines--on any level, for any assertion--as they stand out to me as treasonous and criminal . . ." -- a sincere commenter on this forum

What is going on? What is "treasonous and criminal" about Ruth Paine? To start with, nobody is claiming Ruth Paine was part of the assassination. In "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine":

Bill Simpich: I don't know anybody who thinks that they were part of the plot to kill the President.

You don't hear John Newman, Larry Hancock, David Talbot, Jim DiEugenio, or any other major name claiming Ruth Paine was part of assassinating President Kennedy. As Bill Simpich says, he does not know anybody who thinks that.

A lot of people believe Ruth Paine was a CIA babysitter or spy on Lee and Marina. Ruth denies that, but suppose for the sake of argument she was an informant or babysitter for Marina. That would not be illegal, nothing "treasonous and criminal" (if it was true). 

So where is the "treasonous and criminal"?

Some blame her for incriminating Oswald, which is an odd belief, since Ruth never incriminated Oswald in any crime in her testimony, either falsely or truthfully. In her testimony she never testified she witnessed Oswald committing a crime, or preparing or planning to commit a crime, let alone the assassination of President Kennedy.

Where then is the "treasonous and criminal"?

Is it ideas that Ruth Paine fabricated or planted physical evidence in her home? But there is no evidence she fabricated or planted physical evidence, and no consensus among CT's on this. Is it even clear that very many CT leaders seriously think she did at all? Most people understand Ruth Paine cannot be held responsible for what was found in her house which belonged to Lee or Marina, if she did not plant or fabricate it.

Is it that she believes the Warren Report conclusions that Oswald killed Walker and Kennedy? 

But belief in the Warren Commission's conclusions can hardly be considered "treasonous and criminal".

Where is the "treasonous and criminal"? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Steve Roe]

10 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

That is not true Jim DiEugenio.

 

The metal file boxes in Buddy Walther's trunk were not taken to the Sheriff's office nor did their contents disappear into the ether

Tagg, Brush With History, p. 30:

"4:30. At this point, Walthers put Marina, the kids, and the Paines in his car, and with all the evidence and witnesses aboard drove back to the police station where he turned it all over to Will Fritz."

DPD officer Stovall:

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? 
Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office. 
Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you? 
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children. 
Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police? 

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. 

Deputy sheriff Oxford:

"We also found about 7 metal boxes which contained pamphlets and literature from abroad. Also, there were cameras and film found. All of this was brought to the City Hall along with Mr. and Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald. The children were also brought along. We called Sheriff Decker and he told us to leave all of the evidence at the City Hall and report back to the Sheriff's Office. Upon arriving back at the Sherff's Department we then..."

Deputy sheriff Weatherford:

"We then loaded all of our findings into our car and brought them and Mr. Michael Payne, taking him and findings to the Dallas Police Station to the Homicide Division."

Deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers:

Mr. WALTHERS. (. . .) They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station. 
Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? 
Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene.  

(Links to all sources quoted here are in my earlier post.)

Good one! You know what they say, "when in a deep hole, stop digging". Apparently DiEugenio is trying to dig himself out of this mess he's gotten himself into. As you politely asked him to acknowledge his error on the file cabinets, he refused and waited for someone to provide an answer to get him out of this mess. The Michael Paine excuse is so laughable and beyond absurdity. The fact remains, not one commentor here provided one scintilla of provable evidence, only speculation. 

Both Michael and Ruth Paine were investigated by the FBI. Their background was examined, phone records, letters, etc. If and only IF, there was a list of Castro Sympathizers found, it would have been mentioned somewhere in FBI documentation and examined. Of course........there never was. 

It's too late for DiEugenio, what's done is done. His cameo role in Good's movie is now there for all to see. Now it's Max Good's problem and up to him now to examine this evidence and decide right or wrong. Attempts to slough off by stating "it was DiEugenio's opinion on the file cabinets" just won't cut it if you want to be a fair film maker.

I would give Max Good the benefit of a doubt here, because all of this evidence of the file cabinets, maybe new to him. Perhaps he will make a statement or stay quiet about it. Either way, it's coming up and will be pointed out.

Bottom Line: DiEugenio's comments about the "Castro Sympathizers" in Ruth Paine's garage is totally reckless, irresponsible, debunked nine ways to Sunday, and no doubt whatsoever, an unfounded vicious smear job on Ruth Paine. 

[Joe Bauer]

Ruth was completely taken by the young, attractive, intelligent and Russian speaking Marina.

Ruth couldn't stand Lee. Her tolerance of Lee was a price to pay to be close to Marina.

Ruth had been attracted to the Russian people, language and a Quaker moral cause of helping to bring the world peace threatening Russian/ American cold war tensions to a better place in some personal way for years before meeting Marina. She even traveled there and maintained pen pal type correspondence with some she had met...correct?

In Marina I believe Ruth found not just a much more personal close-to-home way to engage not only her interest in things Russian and Russian/American cold war tensions, but a young mother who really was in basic needs stress and whom she could help significantly .

Jumping in all the way, she soon proposed the pregnant Marina and her child Junie actually come back to live with her in Irving. 

I recall an interview of RP years after 1963, describing visiting Marina in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 ( I believe on her way back from a weeks long summer visit to her CIA employed sister in Virginia? ) where she found the living conditions in the apartment Marina and Lee were residing in disgusting and appalling.

According to Ruth, there were cockroaches everywhere. For Ruth and her own two children to stay the night in this apartment, she had to get a can of roach killer and spray a circle on the floor before she created a bed situation for them there.

It was after this night there amidst the cockroaches that Ruth made her pitch to have Marina come back to Irving to live right in her own home with her, at least through the birth of her child.

That's a rare and deep commitment of help seldom offered to anyone in need.

However, I sense this must have been a very fulfilling and even exciting new cause for Ruth. 

Rescuing this beautiful, interesting and needy young pregnant mother and child from not just a cockroach infested living situation but also from her poorly providing, controlling and boorish cad of a husband.

Also, Ruth even admitted, she was lonely by herself with her own two children and being estranged from Michael Paine.

Bringing Marina and baby June right into her own home satisfied Ruth's own personal need and desire for companionship with a nifty bonus of stimulating intellectual Russian language and cultural sharing to boot.

I also suspect Marina's sparkling blue-eyed youthful feminine beauty along with a kind of mysterious air of intrigue in her curious Russian upbringing and quiet but intelligent reservedness only added to Ruth's attraction to her ... hence it was the perfect match for both her and Marina in Ruth's mind.

If Marina looked like Ruth Buzzi and exhibited any weird behavior at all I don't think Ruth would have ever jumped in so enthusiastically as she did with this deepest personal commitment of shared home help.

Ruth also stated she spent her own monies for things like extra groceries, etc.

Ruth apparently developed deep personal feelings for Marina during their time together.

Ruth stated she was hurt that Marina cut her off 100% soon after the agencies absconded with her and redirected Marina into a new life totally removed from Ruth.

Ruth probably had at least a little normal human sympathy for Lee now and then.

She couldn't stand him personally and seemed to view him as a pathetic person. As did her husband Michael, who even described him with arrogant intellectual disdain.

Ruth knew Lee was going to lose Marina eventually.

Lee just didn't have the ability to provide anything but low income environs for Marina and his children and it would be just a matter of time before another man of means would go after such a stunning young beauty as Marina was.

Marina was a catch. Too much so for Lee.

I think Ruth just wanted Lee to go away.

If Ruth and Michael Paine were not involved in intelligence intrigue regards Oswald, I believe in the least, they didn't care what happened to Lee regards his arrest circumstances. I think they may have even not felt any sorrow for him when he was brutally and painfully killed by Jack Ruby.

Maybe thinking Marina was now free from the heavy yoke of Lee's oppressive and poorly providing control?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Joe Bauer