New Photographic Proof: Todd's Initials on 399!

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Pat:

I said what I said about this.

Three people, probably four, said they were not there. Plus we had photographic evidence.

That is what we went with.

Now, NIST says it was there.

And that is where that matter is right now..

 

 

The NIST said nothing. To my understanding the photo used by Roe in his article has been available for 6 years. When you compare the location of the ET in that photo to earlier photos, moreover, it becomes clear the ET was there for a number of years, in the high res archives images available for 10 years or so, and in the images created by Hunt as far back as 2006 or so. 

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

17 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

NIST initials comparison.docx 2.02 MB · 0 downloads

 

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks, Gary. That nails it. While the glare from the light partially obscures the E, the ET is right there in the same position as in the other photos. 

 

What nails it? In which photo in that file do you see an ET, or just a T? I can't see any, but I'll look more carefully if you tell me which photo the initials are seen.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

What nails it? In which photo in that file do you see an ET, or just a T? I can't see any, but I'll look more carefully if you tell me which photo the initials are seen.

 

It is visible in all the photos showing its location once you know where to look.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Vince Palamara]

11 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Boy, this is a puzzler, but I have hard time believing the HSCA examined CE 399 and did not find ET's initials, but that the initials were actually there. 

I mean, this is a variation of the joke, "You had one job...."

Would not any reasonable person examine CE 399 under a magnifying glass, and turn it this and that way to the light, etc?

This reminds me of the Dallas Police Department officer who recovered four shells near the Tippit scene and said the shells said "auto" on the bottom. But LHO was shooting "Specials," or so the story goes. 

Meaning that a DPD officer, investigating the murder of fellow officer (the most serious crime to any PD) could not get right was was printed on the bottom of the shells he held in his hand.

You had one job....

Good points. The "ET" initials also remind me of the 6.5 mm metal fragment not seen on the night of the autopsy, yet it magically appears later on via x-rays. To my eyes, the "ET" looks haphazard, as if someone hastily added it. It would be very easy to do, one would think; just a matter of seconds. Yes, I am saying there is the possibility that this was added later but BEFORE Hunt's low-resolution photos AND before Roe's better-resolution photos.

All that said, there is also the possibility they WERE there all along (although it seems very hard to believe everyone missed it). 

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF LATER-DAY FORGERY OVER AN OSTENSIBLY "CONTEMPORANEOUS" ITEM:

[Gerald Blaine came out with his book The Kennedy Detail in an attempt to refute my work which demonstrates that JFK never ordered the agents off his car and other related matters. I spoke to and corresponded with Blaine several years before his book came out, there are obvious references to myself in his book, his attorney sent me a threatening letter before publication, both Blaine & Clint Hill spoke at length about me---twice---on C-SPAN, and a whole lot more. This is just to preface the following--Blaine felt the need to plant this in the Archives shortly before MY book (which he was much aware of) was due to come out...but he makes a fatal error]

Gerald Blaine’s handwritten notes on a November 1963 schedule [with underlines and bold by myself, as well as bracketed commentary]:

“Frank Yeager and myself have the advance in Tampa, Fla. Everything goes well and I feel real good. Never a thought of the tragedy that is due to occur on the 22nd. Kennedy makes the first of fateful steps that seem to lead toward the tragedy. He states that he wants no agents riding on the rear of his car as we did in Europe. If one was there the assassination might not have occurred. An agent’s life is a frustrating one. You can set all of the security in the world, but its only as good as the President lets it be. The day will come when the only way the public will be able to see the president is by television. The country seems to be loaded with eccentrics and potentials.”

“I don’t think I have ever been filled so low emotionally by anything like the president’s assassination. There wasn’t a thing anyone could have done to stop it and the Secret Service did everything it could do. [what a joke] My shift worked midnight in Ft. Worth on the 22nd. We took them to the airport – They flew to Dallas, went to Austin to sleep for the next nights duty. I had been asleep about ten minutes in the Commodore Perry Hotel. Art Godfrey came in the room and almost broke the door down. ‘The boss was hit in Dallas.’ I was groggy but the sickening truth seemed to sink through and I couldn’t do anything but swing my legs over the bed and when the shock hit me I couldn’t find the strength to stand and I was hit with a sudden wave of chills. Then I tried to fight off the despair and asked Art if he was sure. He said he knew that Kennedy was shot, but didn’t know if it was fatal. We turned on the radio and finally got through on the security phone to hear the horrible truth. We just withdrew in our own thoughts.”

“We flew back in a SAC Bomber, myself, Art Godfrey, Bob Faison, Jerry O’Rourke, Paul Burns and John Bailey (National Democratic Chairman). We arrived back after Kennedy’s body and set up security at the Johnson residence. (What a disgusting settlement – Kennedy replaced by Johnson – like a pro-ball player going from the Yankees to the bottom of the league.)”

“They say that not many single things have an influence on history, but I am sure this one will.”

“Even though we could have done nothing to prevent it, nor was there anything anyone could have done except use a bulletproof automobile, we are all suffering from guilt and failure [why?!?!? I thought there was zero you could have done to prevent it?!?!?!?!] in our one task. The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months was a sad one, but we all came out with a feeling of hope far greater than we had ever had before. We shall all be stronger for the experience in the years to come. President Kennedy left us a little of his courage and we lost not only a fine president but a friend we will never forget and always admire.” 

 

"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
OOPS--I thought these notes were supposed to be contemporaneous "proof" of something?! A SOURCE AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WHO WAS ADAMANT ABOUT NOT BEING QUOTED SAID IT WAS HIS/HER BELIEF THAT THE HANDWRITTEN "SCRAWL" IN "BALL POINT PEN" WAS ADDED YEARS LATER...I say decades (say, around late 2012), but you get the point.

 

But imagine how this could be used by someone: "This is PROOF that JFK did order the agents off his car!!!!!!"

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Vince Palamara]

2 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Good points. The "ET" initials also remind me of the 6.5 mm metal fragment not seen on the night of the autopsy, yet it magically appears later on via x-rays. To my eyes, the "ET" looks haphazard, as if someone hastily added it. It would be very easy to do, one would think; just a matter of seconds. Yes, I am saying there is the possibility that this was added later but BEFORE Hunt's low-resolution photos AND before Roe's better-resolution photos.

All that said, there is also the possibility they WERE there all along (although it seems very had to believe everyone missed it). 

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF LATER-DAY FORGERY OVER AN OSTENSIBLY "CONTEMPORANEOUS" ITEM:

[Gerald Blaine came out with his book The Kennedy Detail in an attempt to refute my work which demonstrates that JFK never ordered the agents off his car and other related matters. I spoke to and corresponded with Blaine several years before his book came out, there are obvious references to myself in his book, his attorney sent me a threatening letter before publication, both Blaine & Clint Hill spoke at length about me---twice---on C-SPAN, and a whole lot more. This is just to preface the following--Blaine felt the need to plant this in the Archives shortly before MY book (which he was much aware of) was due to come out...but he makes a fatal error]

Gerald Blaine’s handwritten notes on a November 1963 schedule [with underlines and bold by myself, as well as bracketed commentary]:

“Frank Yeager and myself have the advance in Tampa, Fla. Everything goes well and I feel real good. Never a thought of the tragedy that is due to occur on the 22nd. Kennedy makes the first of fateful steps that seem to lead toward the tragedy. He states that he wants no agents riding on the rear of his car as we did in Europe. If one was there the assassination might not have occurred. An agent’s life is a frustrating one. You can set all of the security in the world, but its only as good as the President lets it be. The day will come when the only way the public will be able to see the president is by television. The country seems to be loaded with eccentrics and potentials.”

“I don’t think I have ever been filled so low emotionally by anything like the president’s assassination. There wasn’t a thing anyone could have done to stop it and the Secret Service did everything it could do. [what a joke] My shift worked midnight in Ft. Worth on the 22nd. We took them to the airport – They flew to Dallas, went to Austin to sleep for the next nights duty. I had been asleep about ten minutes in the Commodore Perry Hotel. Art Godfrey came in the room and almost broke the door down. ‘The boss was hit in Dallas.’ I was groggy but the sickening truth seemed to sink through and I couldn’t do anything but swing my legs over the bed and when the shock hit me I couldn’t find the strength to stand and I was hit with a sudden wave of chills. Then I tried to fight off the despair and asked Art if he was sure. He said he knew that Kennedy was shot, but didn’t know if it was fatal. We turned on the radio and finally got through on the security phone to hear the horrible truth. We just withdrew in our own thoughts.”

“We flew back in a SAC Bomber, myself, Art Godfrey, Bob Faison, Jerry O’Rourke, Paul Burns and John Bailey (National Democratic Chairman). We arrived back after Kennedy’s body and set up security at the Johnson residence. (What a disgusting settlement – Kennedy replaced by Johnson – like a pro-ball player going from the Yankees to the bottom of the league.)”

“They say that not many single things have an influence on history, but I am sure this one will.”

“Even though we could have done nothing to prevent it, nor was there anything anyone could have done except use a bulletproof automobile, we are all suffering from guilt and failure [why?!?!? I thought there was zero you could have done to prevent it?!?!?!?!] in our one task. The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months was a sad one, but we all came out with a feeling of hope far greater than we had ever had before. We shall all be stronger for the experience in the years to come. President Kennedy left us a little of his courage and we lost not only a fine president but a friend we will never forget and always admire.” 

 

"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
OOPS--I thought these notes were supposed to be contemporaneous "proof" of something?! A SOURCE AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WHO WAS ADAMANT ABOUT NOT BEING QUOTED SAID IT WAS HIS/HER BELIEF THAT THE HANDWRITTEN "SCRAWL" IN "BALL POINT PEN" WAS ADDED YEARS LATER...I say decades (say, around late 2012), but you get the point.

 

But imagine how this could be used by someone: "This is PROOF that JFK did order the agents off his car!!!!!!"

 

 

 

@James DiEugenio see above 

[Pat Speer]

Vince, are earlier versions of this document available without the scrawl?

[Stu Wexler]

Now that is clear that ET is also in the John Hunt photos, I believe it is imperative that we get both Gary Murr and David Mantik to offer their thoughts on the matter. When did Mantik, for instance, do his analysis? Gary M did his before John Hunt had those pictures taken.

It is still the case that an HSCA workup on all the ballistics materials showed no markings for ET. I will go back to them and double check one more time when I can. Again, they were not specifically looking for initials. But they noted the initials on each fragment/round as well as discolorations, etc. I think it may behoove us to see if any of said analysts are still alive and willing to comment.

I am not anti Steve Roe on this. I think he did a service by finding the initials. Earlier in the year Greg D also thought he saw Todd's initials and I think he would confirm that all I did was to encourage him to dig deeper.  He came back and, to his credit, said they were not there. Here I do see them both on Roe's and Hunt's photos. 

I hope we get some follow up. And ofcourse it does not mean CE399 caused all the non-fatal wound damage to JFK and JBC. I still put that at a very low probability.

And finally I want to say that any insinuation that John Hunt deliberately hid something is absurd. He was a friend and someone of the highest integrity. His contributions to JFK and RFK research are immense. Indeed, his work on the diminished velocity theory of the SBT is as devastating as anything on the subject.

Stu

[Vince Palamara]

2 hours ago, Stu Wexler said:

Now that is clear that ET is also in the John Hunt photos, I believe it is imperative that we get both Gary Murr and David Mantik to offer their thoughts on the matter. When did Mantik, for instance, do his analysis? Gary M did his before John Hunt had those pictures taken.

It is still the case that an HSCA workup on all the ballistics materials showed no markings for ET. I will go back to them and double check one more time when I can. Again, they were not specifically looking for initials. But they noted the initials on each fragment/round as well as discolorations, etc. I think it may behoove us to see if any of said analysts are still alive and willing to comment.

I am not anti Steve Roe on this. I think he did a service by finding the initials. Earlier in the year Greg D also thought he saw Todd's initials and I think he would confirm that all I did was to encourage him to dig deeper.  He came back and, to his credit, said they were not there. Here I do see them both on Roe's and Hunt's photos. 

I hope we get some follow up. And ofcourse it does not mean CE399 caused all the non-fatal wound damage to JFK and JBC. I still put that at a very low probability.

And finally I want to say that any insinuation that John Hunt deliberately hid something is absurd. He was a friend and someone of the highest integrity. His contributions to JFK and RFK research are immense. Indeed, his work on the diminished velocity theory of the SBT is as devastating as anything on the subject.

Stu

Outstanding as usual, Stu! 

 

[Denis Morissette]

Dr. Mantik has replied:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/dr-david-mantik-admits-elmer-todd-s-initials-are-on-ce-399

 

[Vince Palamara]

23 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Vince, are earlier versions of this document available without the scrawl?

No. It appears Blaine had a copy of this relatively mundane document and added that scrawl much later on in an attempt to make it appear "contemporary." He also forgot to mention it in either his book or documentary-oops.

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Dr. Mantik has replied:

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/dr-david-mantik-admits-elmer-todd-s-initials-are-on-ce-399

 

While I frequently disagree with Mantik, he occasionally shows some real class. This is one of those times. 

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

While I frequently disagree with Mantik, he occasionally shows some real class. This is one of those times. 

Completely agree Pat, Mantik's response does show real class. He thanks and honors Roe for the discovery, as Roe well deserves.  

And your identification of the initials on the NARA photographs which followed Roe's on the NIST was also breakthrough creditworthy.

Of course discussion and differences of views will continue over the issue of the single bullet theory and the relationship of CE399 to those theories. But that is distinct from the correction concerning the Todd initials, and the benefits of having a cleaner factual database at the basis of such discussions.

[Steve Roe]

I'd like to thank Dr. Mantik for his honesty and candor in recognizing the mistake on Elmer Todd's initials. That took a certain amount of courage and class to publicly admit it when he was featured on film. 

I was unaware Pat Speer did a study on the bullet as well, and his fine work should be acknowledged. Pat is a researcher and one of the very few I do read and study on the conspiracy side of the argument. 

Does the truth matter?

Now the results rest with DiEugenio and Stone to come forth and recognize the obvious.  Will they? Or will it be business as usual?

[Allen Lowe]

15 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I'd like to thank Dr. Mantik for his honesty and candor in recognizing the mistake on Elmer Todd's initials. That took a certain amount of courage and class to publicly admit it when he was featured on film. 

I was unaware Pat Speer did a study on the bullet as well, and his fine work should be acknowledged. Pat is a researcher and one of the very few I do read and study on the conspiracy side of the argument. 

Does the truth matter?

Now the results rest with DiEugenio and Stone to come forth and recognize the obvious.  Will they? Or will it be business as usual?

It’s weird, Steve, but the handwriting on that bullet looks exactly like yours. 

[Micah Mileto]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:54 AM, Gary Murr said:

 

Hello Pat:

Understandably I have been following this thread with some interest and appreciate not only your even-handed responses but also all comments generated by those who have an opinion on this subject matter. Yes, we all make mistakes/errors and it is only through an understanding and where applicable revelation and correction of errors that the case will ever move forward. Given that you believe the Todd "ET is not a recent addition" I would like your opinion on the comparative black and white photographs I present on the document attached herein. This image is from a previously unprinted FBI lab generated 4 X 5 view camera negative discovered by John Hunt at NARA.

NIST initials comparison.docx 2.02 MB · 22 downloads

These are photos of the bullet before some of the metal was taken away for lab tests? Wow.