The "ET" is to the Stone 2021/2022 docs what the 3 tramps were to the Stone 1991 film

[Vince Palamara]

In other words, neither was a deal breaker; just an "aw shucks." In the big picture, no big deal (although I am SURE some lone-nutters will disagree).

Stone even admitted on the audio commentary and (I think) the annotated screenplay for JFK that the 3 tramps...well...turned out to just be 3 tramps and were identified. Like the Lovelady/man in the doorway Altgens photo issue, some researchers (still?) refused to acknowledge the error, but it is what it is.

Likewise, I feel the "ET"/Elmer Todd initial issue regarding CE399 is of the same caliber (no pun intended)- it doesn't put a dent (no pun intended) in the 2 or 4 hour documentaries as a whole; just something to duly note (borrowing a phrase from Humes) as an error. Like the 3 tramps issue, the "ET" issue WAS alive and well right before release of the Stone productions. It was just that new information came to light.

There are still many issues regarding the SBT: chain of possession, condition, trajectory, disbelief of many (including Clint Hill, Paul Landis, the Connallys, Dr. Robert Shaw, etc.) and so forth. In addition, there are many who feel that OF COURSE CE399 would match up to Oswald's rifle---like the rifle itself, the whole goal was to frame Oswald, so it had to match. For one, I subscribe to the Barry Ernest/Flip de Mey school of thought- Oswald's alleged rifle was involved but OSWALD did not fire it, as he was not on the 6th floor at the time. He was in the building, but on a lower floor. I believe he had to have been involved in some capacity, but as a lone wolf shooter acting totally on his own with no conspiracy, I do not believe this [although I once thought that, while there were undoubtably multiple conspiracies to kill Kennedy, Oswald beat them to the punch. This was circa several months in 2007 when I was briefly swayed by the other Vince not named Palamara, DiMaio, Drain, or Salandria: ole Bugliosi. I added that so DVP doesn't reply "oh, Vince, I remember when you" etc.] But I digress.

Also- Dr. Guinn's NAA has been totally debunked as junk science, so much so that even the FBI has dismissed it of any value. There was a time when THIS was always used by lone-nutters (Paul Hoch and Ken Rahn especially) as "proof" of Oswald's guilt. So much for that...and the debunking of Guinn's NAA is of far greater consequence than a set of initials will ever be.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Steve Roe]

10 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

In other words, neither was a deal breaker; just an "aw shucks." In the big picture, no big deal (although I am SURE some lone-nutters will disagree).

Stone even admitted on the audio commentary and (I think) the annotated screenplay for JFK that the 3 tramps...well...turned out to just be 3 tramps and were identified. Like the Lovelady/man in the doorway Altgens photo issue, some researchers (still?) refused to acknowledge the error, but it is what it is.

Likewise, I feel the "ET"/Elmer Todd initial issue regarding CE399 is of the same caliber (no pun intended)- it doesn't put a dent (no pun intended) in the 2 or 4 hour documentaries as a whole; just something to duly note (borrowing a phrase from Humes) as an error. Like the 3 tramps issue, the "ET" issue WAS alive and well right before release of the Stone productions. It was just that new information came to light.

There are still many issues regarding the SBT: chain of possession, condition, trajectory, disbelief of many (including Clint Hill, Paul Landis, the Connallys, Dr. Robert Shaw, etc.) and so forth. In addition, there are many who feel that OF COURSE CE399 would match up to Oswald's rifle---like the rifle itself, the whole goal was to frame Oswald, so it had to match. For one, I subscribe to the Barry Ernest/Flip de Mey school of thought- Oswald's alleged rifle was involved but OSWALD did not fire it, as he was not on the 6th floor at the time. He was in the building, but on a lower floor. I believe he had to have been involved in some capacity, but as a lone wolf shooter acting totally on his own with no conspiracy, I do not believe this [although I once thought that, while there were undoubtably multiple conspiracies to kill Kennedy, Oswald beat them to the punch. This was circa several months in 2007 when I was briefly swayed by the other Vince not named Palamara, DiMaio, Drain, or Salandria: ole Bugliosi. I added that so DVP doesn't reply "oh, Vince, I remember when you" etc.] But I digress.

Also- Dr. Guinn's NAA has been totally debunked as junk science, so much so that even the FBI has dismissed it of any value. There was a time when THIS was always used by lone-nutters (Paul Hoch and Ken Rahn especially) as "proof" of Oswald's guilt. So much for that...and the debunking of Guinn's NAA is of far greater consequence than a set of initials will ever be.

Vince, is Oliver Stone even aware of this Elmer Todd initials rebut? Did DiEugenio tell him or anyone?

[Vince Palamara]

6 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Vince, is Oliver Stone even aware of this Elmer Todd initials rebut? Did DiEugenio tell him or anyone?

Good point. I do not know.

[Denis Morissette]

Good question, Steve. Steve Roe is a super researcher. Like David Von Pein, he’s usually right!

[Joseph McBride]

I don't know why anyone would take the DPD's supposed

identification of the "three tramps" at face value. Their

identity is an open question.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

I don't know why anyone would take the DPD's supposed

identification of the "three tramps" at face value. Their

identity is an open question.

The DPD didn't ID the three tramps. As detailed in Oswald Talked, two researchers found the arrest records in the DPD's files, and followed up by contacting the men and/or their families. And it was them. The three men in the arrest records were the spitting image of the men in the photos. 

Unless one is to hold that these three out of work and down on their luck men were secretly assassins, this riddle has been solved. 

[Mark Ulrik]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:18 AM, Vince Palamara said:

Dr. Guinn's NAA has been totally debunked as junk science, so much so that even the FBI has dismissed it of any value. There was a time when THIS was always used by lone-nutters (Paul Hoch and Ken Rahn especially) as "proof" of Oswald's guilt.

Can you point to anything Paul Hoch has written on the subject? Thank you in advance.
Btw, when did he "come out" as a lone-nutter?

[Paul Cummings]

The Three Tramps located in the train box car were Charles Rogers, Charles Harrelson and Chauncey Holt. Lois Gibson (forensic expert) identified Holt as the third tramp. Chauncey Holt IMO doesn't get enough discussion on these threads and his taped interview by his daughter (since taken down on youtube) is fascinating and very detailed. 

[Denis Morissette]

One of the arresting officers, Marvin Wise, was wise enough to write down the names on a piece of paper in his locker in case someone ask him the name. After Garrison’s appearance on Carson’s show, the FBI contacted the DPD for info on the Tramps. Wise had thrown out his note by that time and was unable to remember the names.

[Paul Cummings]

19 minutes ago, Denis Morissette said:

One of the arresting officers, Marvin Wise, was wise enough to write down the names on a piece of paper in his locker in case someone ask him the name. After Garrison’s appearance on Carson’s show, the FBI contacted the DPD for info on the Tramps. Wise had thrown out his note by that time and was unable to remember the names.

He kept criminal evidence in his locker?

[Denis Morissette]

2 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

He kept criminal evidence in his locker?

There is nothing criminal about being homeless. 🥺

[Paul Cummings]

1 minute ago, Denis Morissette said:

There is nothing criminal about being homeless. 🥺

Same as Lt. Day taking the rifle and locking up in his office and then heading back to the TSBD.

[Denis Morissette]

4 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Same as Lt. Day taking the rifle and locking up in his office and then heading back to the TSBD.

Different topic. Start a new thread.

[Vince Palamara]

11 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Can you point to anything Paul Hoch has written on the subject? Thank you in advance.
Btw, when did he "come out" as a lone-nutter?

I gleaned this from his old late 1980's-early-1990's print newsletters that I no longer have. His "famous" line he said over and over was "It could very well be that Oswald did it all by himself, but the way the FBI and CIA acted and had numerous things to cover up themselves, it just appeared there was a conspiracy when there wasn't."

I think we can rule out Hoch as a CT.

[Jonathan Cohen]

9 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

The Three Tramps located in the train box car were Charles Rogers, Charles Harrelson and Chauncey Holt. Lois Gibson (forensic expert) identified Holt as the third tramp. Chauncey Holt IMO doesn't get enough discussion on these threads and his taped interview by his daughter (since taken down on youtube) is fascinating and very detailed. 

This is absolutely, completely wrong. Thanks to the research of Mary La Fontaine, It has been well established for 30 years that the three men were Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle and John Gedney, that they were in fact actual itinerant "tramps" and had nothing to do with the assassination whatsoever.