Prayer Man

[David Von Pein]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

There is strong reason to believe, moreover, that Shelley was standing by the front stairs when Oswald came down from the second floor, and that he did, in fact, tell Oswald it was okay to leave. 

So that means you must think that Bill Shelley was telling some pretty big lies in his WC testimony (below), eh Pat?

Any particular reason WHY you think William H. Shelley would want to tell all these lies?....

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at any time after 12?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

34 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So that means you must think that Bill Shelley was telling some pretty big lies in his WC testimony (below), eh Pat?

Any particular reason WHY you think William H. Shelley would want to tell all these lies?....

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at any time after 12?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.

 

If you read his and Lovelady's testimony carefully, you'll see that they said the time they were on the front steps was longer or around the same time as the time they spent over by the train tracks. Well, the films show them leave the steps what? 30 seconds after the shooting, or something like that. This means that they would have returned to the building in time to see Adams and Styles as they came down. This really comes to light when Lovelady (as I recall) says they returned via the western dock and not the northern dock. Well, the WC had cut this dock off their exhibits, and Ball loses his composure for a second when he realizes they could have returned in time to see Adams. 

As far as the 10 to 12 minute estimates, etc, I think they were pressured into saying as much by people anxious to shut down Adams. But when you read their statements carefully you see that their statements actually support Adams. Shelley, for example, said he remembered talking to her but he couldn't remember on what floor. Well, Shelley, raced up up to the 4th floor with Sawyer, if I recall, at a time Adams was filmed outside. This leaves his seeing her on the first floor as the likely deduction.  And Lovelady, as I recall, said he had a vague recollection of seeing her on his return. Or some such thing. In any event, their statements actually support that she ran down the steps. And I think Ball and Belin knew this. 

Which is why the memo on Garner was never mentioned, and buried in the records...

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

40 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So that means you must think that Bill Shelley was telling some pretty big lies in his WC testimony (below), eh Pat?

Any particular reason WHY you think William H. Shelley would want to tell all these lies?....

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at any time after 12?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.

 

I just realized that my last response didn't answer your question. Shelley said he was told to watch the front stairs by Truly. This would have to have happened after Truly raced into the building. The timing of this would indicate, furthermore, that Shelley was at the front stairs when Oswald came down 2 minutes later. So I suspect Oswald was telling the truth when he said he saw Shelley as he went outside. 

As far as Shelley lying...well, I think he probably did. Who would want to admit that he let a man accused of killing the President leave the building, particularly in that this man quite possibly killed a Dallas cop shortly thereafter? It was a little white lie. Nope. I never saw him. Well, really? If Oswald left via the front door, as claimed, how is it that no one saw him? 

 

[Roger Odisio]

Posted 1 hour ago

  2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I'm confused, Pat.  Perhaps you can clear some things up.

You say the Hosty note Bart refers to in which Oswald said he was out front was not made at time of Oswald's questioning on the 22th, but a day or two later in while preparing a report with Bookout.  Hosty's original notes on the 22nd do not mention this.  Hosty, you said, wrote the second note "from memory", though surely after such a short interval everything was still fresh in his mind.

You don't say how you know this but perhaps you have done so elsewhere.  But your claim is hard to accept.  We're talking about Oswald's alibi--where he was when Kennedy was murdered. Which Hosty must have instantly recognized.  Yet he didn't think it was important enough to include in his original notes?  His alibi must have been the focus of that whole interrogation the first day, don't you think?

You say Hosty remembered the alibi a day or two later and wrote it down then.  You don't contest the legitimacy of the note, so I'm left to ponder why your claim about the separate notes matters. 

It's easy to understand why the alibi disappeared from the report and why it was was buried for so long.  It destroys the WR fairy tale.

You say you think it's a near certainty that Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.  Seems clear to me too.  Where do you think he was if not on the front steps?  Your statements above all pertain to possible movements after the murder.

 

Expand  

"The notes I posted were published by Hosty himself, and are clearly actual notes."

Of course the notes Hosty published after the WC concocted its story of Oswald's whereabouts were actual notes.  But he only published some of his notes, as you acknowledge.  It's no mystery why "then he [Oswald] went outside to watch P Parade" was not among them.

"The piece of paper subsequently discovered by Kamp while combing through Blunt's files is clearly a draft for a report. it is a misnomer that reports are written based entirely on notes. 

Again, if you agree that Hosty wrote the note in question, I don't see what difference it makes whether he wrote it the 22nd or 23 rd or 24th.

"People quite often don't write down what they think they'll remember." 

But Hosty *did* write that phrase down.

"As far as the statements you think are an alibi--you're just assuming Hosty would have seen it that way, because you believe it means Oswald was outside at the time of the shooting. It doesn't say that."

It plainly does:  after eating lunch "he went outside to watch P Parade."

"The statements of Carolyn Arnold and Jack Dougherty,  moreover, suggest that Oswald may have thought of going outside, but then thought better of it, and went back inside to a lunch room. It seems possible, then, that Oswald told Hosty he tried to go outside, and that Hosty--alone among those observing the interview--thought he said he actually went outside."

I am not going to credit your inference of things Arnold and Dougherty said over what Oswald himself was recorded to have said.  We don't know what others at the questioning thought Oswald said.  If they heard the same as Hosty they surely would have kept their mouth shut as they were framing him.  

[Pat Speer]

20 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Posted 1 hour ago

  2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I'm confused, Pat.  Perhaps you can clear some things up.

You say the Hosty note Bart refers to in which Oswald said he was out front was not made at time of Oswald's questioning on the 22th, but a day or two later in while preparing a report with Bookout.  Hosty's original notes on the 22nd do not mention this.  Hosty, you said, wrote the second note "from memory", though surely after such a short interval everything was still fresh in his mind.

You don't say how you know this but perhaps you have done so elsewhere.  But your claim is hard to accept.  We're talking about Oswald's alibi--where he was when Kennedy was murdered. Which Hosty must have instantly recognized.  Yet he didn't think it was important enough to include in his original notes?  His alibi must have been the focus of that whole interrogation the first day, don't you think?

You say Hosty remembered the alibi a day or two later and wrote it down then.  You don't contest the legitimacy of the note, so I'm left to ponder why your claim about the separate notes matters. 

It's easy to understand why the alibi disappeared from the report and why it was was buried for so long.  It destroys the WR fairy tale.

You say you think it's a near certainty that Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.  Seems clear to me too.  Where do you think he was if not on the front steps?  Your statements above all pertain to possible movements after the murder.

 

Expand  

"The notes I posted were published by Hosty himself, and are clearly actual notes."

Of course the notes Hosty published after the WC concocted its story of Oswald's whereabouts were actual notes.  But he only published some of his notes, as you acknowledge.  It's no mystery why "then he [Oswald] went outside to watch P Parade" was not among them.

"The piece of paper subsequently discovered by Kamp while combing through Blunt's files is clearly a draft for a report. it is a misnomer that reports are written based entirely on notes. 

Again, if you agree that Hosty wrote the note in question, I don't see what difference it makes whether he wrote it the 22nd or 23 rd or 24th.

"People quite often don't write down what they think they'll remember." 

But Hosty *did* write that phrase down.

"As far as the statements you think are an alibi--you're just assuming Hosty would have seen it that way, because you believe it means Oswald was outside at the time of the shooting. It doesn't say that."

It plainly does:  after eating lunch "he went outside to watch P Parade."

"The statements of Carolyn Arnold and Jack Dougherty,  moreover, suggest that Oswald may have thought of going outside, but then thought better of it, and went back inside to a lunch room. It seems possible, then, that Oswald told Hosty he tried to go outside, and that Hosty--alone among those observing the interview--thought he said he actually went outside."

I am not going to credit your inference of things Arnold and Dougherty said over what Oswald himself was recorded to have said.  We don't know what others at the questioning thought Oswald said.  If they heard the same as Hosty they surely would have kept their mouth shut as they were framing him.  

You are seeing all this through a prism. Of course it matters if Hosty's words were written down when Oswald was in front of him, or were written down hours or even days later. And, of course, it matters that Hosty's words don't specify that Oswald was outside when the shots rang out. Hosty said numerous times over the years that Oswald said he was in the lunchroom when the shots were fired. Why is this without meaning? Why is this insignificant compared to what was written on one piece of paper within days off the assassination, that didn't even specify that Oswald was outside when the shots rang out? 

 

[David Von Pein]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Shelley lying...well, I think he probably did. Who would want to admit that he let a man accused of killing the President leave the building, particularly in that this man quite possibly killed a Dallas cop shortly thereafter? It was a little white lie. Nope. I never saw him.

Yes, I can see your point, Pat. But, then too, no reasonable and sensible person could possibly have placed any blame or guilt on Bill Shelley's shoulders for not stopping Lee Oswald at the front door of the TSBD at 12:33 PM (assuming that Oswald DID, in fact, see Shelley out in front when LHO left the building; and I do believe Oswald probably was telling the truth about that; it's a question, then, of whether Shelley saw Oswald or not)....because Shelley didn't have any reason at all to suspect Oswald of being involved in the assassination. If Shelley did see him leaving the building, Oswald would have been (in Shelley's mind) just one of the many employees moving in or out of the building at that particular time.

 

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

If Oswald left via the front door, as claimed, how is it that no one saw him? 

But we can also ask that very same question of many of the people who were standing near the TSBD front door at about 12:31 PM who claimed they never saw the white-helmeted Marrion L. Baker enter the building either. And yet we KNOW Baker DID enter the building nonetheless.

And we could probably engage in the very same kind of "Why Didn't Anybody See This Person Do This?" speculation when it comes to various other aspects of the JFK and Tippit cases.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Roger Odisio]

What we have to go on is Hosty's note that Oswald said he went outside to watch the "P Parade".  There is no further note that says, but he was too late, the motorcade had passed.  Absent that, the only reasonable inference is that his claim is he was there when the murder happened.  Hosty's note doesn't have to be phrased to meet your preferences for that to be true.

 

What Hosty said over the years is of little importance.  He is not going to say anything that directly conflicts with the official story.  The fact that he apparently never publicly acknowledged the note that later surfaced should tell you that.
 

But whether Oswald was on the steps or in the first floor lunch room during the murder shouldn't obscure the larger point.  He wasn't on the 6th floor.  He didn't shoot JFK.

 

And a better version of Darnell may clear up any differences between you and me as to where he was.

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

What we have to go on is Hosty's note that Oswald said he went outside to watch the "P Parade".  There is no further note that says, but he was too late, the motorcade had passed.  Absent that, the only reasonable inference is that his claim is he was there when the murder happened.  Hosty's note doesn't have to be phrased to meet your preferences for that to be true.

My $0.02 (originally posted here at the EF on February 24, 2019)....

I don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Harvey Oswald. Based on all of the official FINAL reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, I can see your point, Pat. But, then too, no reasonable and sensible person could possibly have placed any blame or guilt on Bill Shelley's shoulders for not stopping Lee Oswald at the front door of the TSBD at 12:33 PM (assuming that Oswald DID, in fact, see Shelley out in front when LHO left the building; and I do believe Oswald probably was telling the truth about that; it's a question, then, of whether Shelley saw Oswald or not)....because Shelley didn't have any reason at all to suspect Oswald of being involved in the assassination. If Shelley did see him leaving the building, Oswald would have been (in Shelley's mind) just one of the many employees moving in or out of the building at that particular time.

 

But we can also ask that very same question of many of the people who were standing near the TSBD front door at about 12:31 PM who claimed they never saw the white-helmeted Marrion L. Baker enter the building either. And yet we KNOW Baker DID enter the building nonetheless.

And we could probably engage in the very same kind of "Why Didn't Anybody See This Person Do This?" speculation when it comes to various other aspects of the JFK and Tippit cases.

 

You actually make a good point, David. I'm not sure if you are aware of some of the cognitive psychology studies discussed on my website, but in one of them a professor filmed a bunch of students passing a basketball amongst themselves. He then showed this film to students and others after asking them how many girl students there were or how many passes were made in the film. A lot of people answered correctly. He then asked how many noticed the gorilla in the film. Yep, at one point in the film a man in a gorilla suit walked into the middle of the magic circle of people passing the ball, and threw his hands up in the air. And yet less than half the people who'd just watched the film even noticed this, because their minds were elsewhere. So yeah, Oswald could have walked out and not been noticed by his coworkers. Or, come to think of it, even been standing at the back of the steps...

Edited August 5, 2022 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

So yeah, Oswald could have walked out and not been noticed by his coworkers. Or, come to think of it, even been standing at the back of the steps...

Buell Frazier disagrees with you....

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021

-----------------

But you can always show Frazier that "Gorilla" video. After watching it, maybe Buell will then change his mind about Lee not being on the steps.

And then I can always come back with my favorite video of Oswald telling the press that he was INSIDE the Depository building at the time of the assassination, while not uttering a single word to the press (and hence, to the world) about his perfect and ironclad "I Was Really On The TSBD Steps" alibi that would have forever proven him innocent of the Presidential murder that he was about to be officially charged with.

And 'round and 'round we go.

Edited August 5, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Robbie Robertson]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

You actually make a good point, David. I'm not sure if you are aware of some of the cognitive psychology studies discussed on my website, but in one of them a professor filmed a bunch of students passing a basketball amongst themselves. He then showed this film to students and others after asking them how many girl students there were or how many passes were made in the film. A lot of people answered correctly. He then asked how many noticed the gorilla in the film. Yep, at one point in the film a man in a gorilla suit walked into the middle of the magic circle of people passing the ball, and thew his hands up in the air. And yet less than half the people who'd just watched the film even noticed this, because their minds were elsewhere. So yeah, Oswald could have walked out and not been noticed by his coworkers. Or, come to think of it, even been standing at the back of the steps...

I had memory expert Roddy Rodeinger on my show and he studies long term and false memories, when it comes to a traumatic event peoples memories are clear exactly what the details are which makes testimonies in the day and week of the Assassination the most accurate if they aren’t pressured by authorities. For example what I always hear is I remember exactly where I was on 9/11 because it’s a traumatic event. I brought up that gorilla example which doesn’t work when it’s a civilian witnessing a death or 9/11 event and is different when it’s someone who has military experience and here is the episode. Of course if people didn’t see him or were probably not looking to know everyone’s location since the president was just shot but from what I’ve read is that he was given permission to leave or somehow people say they saw him on the second floor either way confusing all around 

 

Out Of The Blank #1149 - Roddy Roediger

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Robbie Robertson

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Buell Frazier disagrees with you....

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021

-----------------

But you can always show Frazier that "Gorilla" video. After watching it, maybe Buell will then change his mind about Lee not being on the steps.

David, isn't there one "gorilla walking by" that Frazier did miss, namely officer Baker going in the door right by him? What are the implications of that for Frazier also not noticing if Oswald without saying a word had come out the door and stood nearby for about 30 seconds, then without saying a word had quietly gone back in again. Maybe no different?

On Frazier's comment on the Prayer Man image, the first point that stands out to me is that Frazier is being honest (which I already think of Frazier anyway), i.e. he is not wilfully removing an Oswald alibi (but knows better) because if that were the case he would have said "I remember that person and it was not Oswald". No, the significant detail here is he does not remember that person and cannot identify that person. That to me leaves the matter open as opposed to closed, in terms of Oswald's presence being excluded by Frazier. That Frazier says the image does not look like Oswald is of no bearing and that Frazier says "Lee was not out there. I know that to be true" sounds like it cannot be other than paraphrase for "I never remembered Oswald out on those steps--it is unbelievable to me that that could be true". Frazier obviously had no personal witnessed knowledge of Oswald being somewhere else. All he has is he has is no memory of noticing or remembering Oswald on the steps with Frazier and "if he were there I would have noticed". That is all Frazier can mean by that ("Lee was not out there. I know that to be true.") However he does not remember noticing the "prayer man" person at all, and (separate matter) he did not notice a gorilla going right by him in those very same moments, a uniformed police officer. His not noticing the gorilla going by, uniformed officer Baker, suggests in those moments of trauma or shock or adrenalin in the seconds after hearing and seeing shots at the presidential motorcade, that some things just are not being noticed immediately around Frazier that normally would have been noticed. 

Therefore Frazier does not and it appears never would be able to confirm Oswald's presence even if it turns out to be unequivocally true that that was Oswald--because he never saw him, never remembered him, to his right, no more than the gorilla who went by him to the left, uniformed officer Baker. He is truthful in not having seen or remembered either, but that in itself is insufficient to exclude that either happened. 

How many times have each of us had the experience of standing intently watching some thing or event at a distance, then be startled at realizing someone we knew had been standing right next to us close by for some time, that we did not realize had walked up and been there without our noticing? That could be the case if "prayer man" was Oswald except in this case Frazier never had the "startle" of noticing.

As for "Naturally if I work in that building I'm in that building", that clip has so many reporters asking questions of Oswald at the same time with Oswald having only moments to respond in a chaotic atmosphere it is ambiguous. I don't see much difference between "No (I did not kill the president)" and "No (I did not kill the president), I was out on the front steps/on the second floor/in the domino room, etc. at the time". Of course he could have blurted out something of that nature, tried to argue his innocence in a few seconds, when he was briefly presented at the press conference that night but he may have decided to use his scarce seconds there to focus on the greater priority, getting a lawyer. (Side comment: I flat do not believe that Oswald declined interest in having immediate legal counsel while he waited however many days it would take to get New York attorney Abt involved in his case that he really wanted. I know that was reported. But I do not find that report believable.) Once he had counsel, plenty of time to go into the details of charges and alibi with the attorney. 

I agree with Bart Kamp that Hosty's "outside to watch P. Parade" was Oswald's answer when asked directly by Fritz where he was when the president was shot. That specific question with 100% certainty will have been asked of Oswald, and from all accounts Oswald was giving answers to most questions asked, and that would be the trace in Hosty's notes of Oswald's answer to that question. 

In other words, without knowing of the existence of the "prayer man" film footage, Oswald was claiming he was "prayer man".

And Buell Wesley Frazier's lack of memory of Prayer Man after studying the photos serves to neither confirm nor exclude whether "prayer man" was Oswald. 

[John Butler]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

To be clear, Baker and Truly tried to call the elevator from the first floor, but it wouldn't come down. They thought it was stuck on the fifth, but it could have been the sixth.

Bonney Ray Williams locked the elevator to the 5th floor when he came down from the sixth about 12:15 or 12:20. There he joined Norman and Jarman.  In my opinion that was to keep anyone from disturbing what was happening on the 6th floor.

Edited August 5, 2022 by John Butler

[Roger Odisio]

Some good points, Greg.

I had exactly that experience you speak of at my brother's funeral.  I was talking with a small group when for some reason I turned around and there was one of my best friends from high school standing there.  I don't know how long he had been there without saying anything or why I turned around when I did.

In this case the attention of everyone on the steps was focused on the motorcade.  Oswald was behind them, back in the corner on the top step.  There was  no reason for anyone to turn around and notice him.  Then the shots rang out and confusion reigned.

Oswald likely was only there briefly.  We don't know when he arrived.  Was it just before the shots or just after?

As to Frazier's honesty, I'll take a pass.  On the day of the murder, Fritz tried to intimidate him into confessing to be Oswald's accomplice.  He could see what happened to anyone who tried to contradict the official story.

I think there is a decent chance that at some point, given their proximity at the time, Frazier *did* realize Oswald was there.  A 19 year old kid, he wasn't going to say anything after what he had already been through.  And what he could see happening to others. He could see how easy it was to frame Oswald and get away with it.  Staying out of it was an easy, perhaps his only, choice.

Put yourself in his shoes now.  How do you confess that you knew all along Oswald was on the steps, but kept quiet?  

He's in his 70s now.  My guess is the only chance that Frazier comes clean--if in fact he did notice Oswald--(admittedly a big if) is if there is a movement strong enough to get a examination of Prayerman to provide him some cover.  A long shot at this point.

As to what Oswald said while being dragged briefly through the hallway, he was savvy enough to know not blurt out his defense to a bunch of reporters he could see were hell bent on doing the police's dirty work to frame him.  Shouting "I'm just a patsy" was actually a good try.  What did it get him?

Actually, shouting he was just a patsy together with the alibi he gave under questioning and the dearth of evidence against him (they couldn't legitimately place him on the 6th floor because he wasn't there) only served to speed up the time frame for Oswald's execution.  Before he could get a lawyer.  He couldn't be allowed a defense.

 

  

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Bonney Ray Williams locked the elevator to the 5th floor when he came down from the sixth about 12:15 or 12:20. There he joined Norman and Jarman.  In my opinion that was to keep anyone from disturbing what was happening on the 6th floor.

And as usual, you don't have a shred of actual evidence to support such a claim.