Oswald's alibi

[Nick Bartetzko]

22 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Nick B.--

Well, could be. 

I have also wondered about the publisher's offices, on the fourth floor of the TSBD, that were evidently never searched after the JFKA. 

On the ropes: After descending the shaft using ropes...what happened to the ropes? That's a long rope. Take it along? No one saw a man with a circled rope under his arm leaving the TSBD....

Is there an interior rebar-type ladder on the shaft walls? 

Ben,

Gerry Hemming liked to tell stories and at least this one appears plausible. It is a better possibility …imo…. than loosening floorboards and crawling onto the top of an elevator. Hemming also mentioned the importance of controlling the high ground, so this fits with that criteria. As to the ropes, it’s a good question and I have no idea. No one would ever be looking for it and even if it were found, what conclusion would someone likely draw. I don’t know as to ladders, foot holds or hand holds that could have been used to get to the basement. IIRC, there are a couple of witnesses that witnessed an individual exiting the rear dock area. I recall the interesting phone call of a Dallas resident Velma to a radio talk show describing that. 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You need to pick your sources carefully. You choose to believe a former KGB agent?

If Oswald was in Mexico City, then why was an imposter taking his place in the Cuban consulate? Why were imposter(s) making phone calls for him? And why did the FBI have to fabricate bus-ride evidence for Oswald to get to and return from MC for the WC cover-up? (As per David Josephs' analysis, published on Ks&K.)

BTW, like you, I also believe Oswald was a CIA asset. As I said, the CIA made it look like Oswald conspired with Cubans and Russians to kill Kennedy. (Even Peter Dale Scott and John Newman say that.) And apparently the Johnson Administration bought it... at least early on! According to James Hosty in his book, he heard from two independent, corroborating sources that, shortly after Oswald's arrest...

...fully armed warplanes were sent screaming toward Cuba. Just before they entered Cuban airspace, they were hastily called back. With the launching of airplanes, the entire U.S. military went on alert.

(The planes were probably called back when it was decided to go with the lone nut story instead.) If what I am saying is wrong, then why did the U.S. immediately dispatch warplanes to Cuba after the assassination?

I don't see any reason to believe Oswald was involved in the assassination at all. He said in his interrogation that he was on the first floor and even went outside during the presidential parade. Why believe any differently?

The only thing I find curious is Oswald's adventure at the theater. I haven't figured that one out.

 

 

 

Sandy:

For me, the KGB agent is likely telling the truth, as the much better story, which would raise Cain, would be, "Sure we met someone named LHO in MC. And he was not the same guy arrested in Dallas." 

I guess you can say the KGB agent was paid or coerced into making a false claim. 

As you point out, LHO went home and got his gun after the JFKA. That suggests he knew something was up. I assume LHO  knew or suspected he was the patsy. 

But you cannot know you are the patsy if you know nothing at all. In the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, why not assume JFK had been shot by non-government right-wingers, or thugs, or a nutjob?

LHO assumed he was the patsy.  Seems like a stretch if one day you are just packing boxes and the President is shot....

Well, all IMHO....

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

Ben,

Gerry Hemming liked to tell stories and at least this one appears plausible. It is a better possibility …imo…. than loosening floorboards and crawling onto the top of an elevator. Hemming also mentioned the importance of controlling the high ground, so this fits with that criteria. As to the ropes, it’s a good question and I have no idea. No one would ever be looking for it and even if it were found, what conclusion would someone likely draw. I don’t know as to ladders, foot holds or hand holds that could have been used to get to the basement. IIRC, there are a couple of witnesses that witnessed an individual exiting the rear dock area. I recall the interesting phone call of a Dallas resident Velma to a radio talk show describing that. 

Verily, a hefty man in a brown coat was seen leaving the rear of the TSBD in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. I assume the coat was large enough to conceal a weapon. On the other hand, he might have just been some guy afraid of gunfire who didn't want to get caught up in the hubbub. 

That's the thing about the JFKA. There are opaque areas, and you can fill in the details to suit your tastes. Who is lying and who is telling the truth? 

Even with a polygraph, very hard to know. 

I do regard the WC as a government investigation of itself, and something of a show trial of LHO. 

[Pete Mellor]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:04 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

OK, so how did the two real shooters get down the stairs without anyone seeing them?  What escape plan did they use? 

We'll never know the answer to that.  But we do know that the TSBD wasn't secure till around 13:00hrs and there was a report of S.S. men around the back door of the building + the strange report of the power outage.  Did Baker & Truly see someone on the 4th floor?  Maybe the mechanics just walked out.  Who knows?

[Benjamin Cole]

44 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

We'll never know the answer to that.  But we do know that the TSBD wasn't secure till around 13:00hrs and there was a report of S.S. men around the back door of the building + the strange report of the power outage.  Did Baker & Truly see someone on the 4th floor?  Maybe the mechanics just walked out.  Who knows?

Who knows?

Well, I just have IMHOs

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

For me, the KGB agent is likely telling the truth, as the much better story, which would raise Cain, would be, "Sure we met someone named LHO in MC. And he was not the same guy arrested in Dallas."

 

Ben,

So, you think the CIA had an operation going on in Mexico City to paint Oswald as an assassin (or part of an assassination team) who is conspiring with the Cubans to kill Kennedy. (This is what the known evidence shows.) With a fake Oswald visiting the Cuban Consulate. (Again, what the evidence shows.) But for some reason the CIA instructs (the real) Oswald to meet with (the real) KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov? Why would the CIA do that?

Or do you think Oswald double-crossed the CIA and met Kostikov on the sly? If so, why would he do that?

Occam's razor says that Oswald wasn't there at all, didn't meet with Kostikov, and that Kostikov made that story up. For whatever reason... maybe giggles.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

As you point out, LHO went home and got his gun after the JFKA. That suggests he knew something was up. I assume LHO  knew or suspected he was the patsy. 

 

It seems to me that Oswald was following instructions when he went to the theater. I see no reason to believe that he knew he was going to be accused of Kennedy's killing.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

But you cannot know you are the patsy if you know nothing at all.

 

Oswald was working for the CIA. The CIA had placed him at that job. The next thing he knows, he's being arrested and Kennedy's dead. Right away he knew he's been double crossed by his employer and made to be the patsy.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

In the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, why not assume JFK had been shot by non-government right-wingers, or thugs, or a nutjob?

 

Oswald may well have thought that... before his arrest. We'll never know.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

LHO assumed he was the patsy.  Seems like a stretch if one day you are just packing boxes and the President is shot....

 

There's no indication that Oswald thought he was a patsy before his arrest.

 

[Rick McTague]

On 9/14/2022 at 2:23 PM, Roger Odisio said:

What do you think Dulles was doing that crucial first weekend at the Farm as Oswald was murdered and the coverup began?

He was managing the manipulation of the evidence to assure a single shooter from the rear.  This would include coordinating the activities at Skunkworks and the NPIC that Doug Horne documented so well.  Maybe telephone records from that location would help?

 

[Roger DeLaria]

What kind of story was Oswald told about what he would be doing and what did he actually think he was participating in? 

He seemed shocked that he was being charged with Kennedy's killing. Didn't he angrily say in the police station, "I emphatically deny these charges!", and then of course "I'm just a patsy!". 

 

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

 

Do you, or anyone, know if the ARRB requested such records from the CIA?

The Board closed in 1998.  It had defined a JFKA record as "all records, public and private, that document, describe, report on, analyze or interpret activities, persons, or events reasonably related to the assassination and investigations or inquiries of the assassination".  Information that is in the possession of "all federal government entities, all state and local governments, private institutions, private institutions, all courts, and foreign goverments".

Obviously the phone records at the Farm that weekend are a JFKA record.  So, btw, is the Darnell film.

Which leads to a second question.  Much new information has surfaced since 1998 and we know more about information prior to that.  Does anyone know whether the National Archives  has a system to add records to their list once it becomes clear they are relevant to the JFKA?  If so, how does it work?

 

[Roger Odisio]

1 minute ago, Roger Odisio said:

Do you, or anyone, know if the ARRB requested such records from the CIA?

The Board closed in 1998.  It had defined a JFKA record as "all records, public and private, that document, describe, report on, analyze or interpret activities, persons, or events reasonably related to the assassination and investigations or inquiries of the assassination".  Information that is in the possession of "all federal government entities, all state and local governments, private institutions, private *individuals*, all courts, and foreign governments".

Obviously the phone records at the Farm that weekend are a JFKA record.  So, btw, is the Darnell film.

Which leads to a second question.  Much new information has surfaced since 1998 and we know more about information prior to that.  Does anyone know whether the National Archives  has a system to add records to their list once it becomes clear they are relevant to the JFKA?  If so, how does it work?

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben,

So, you think the CIA had an operation going on in Mexico City to paint Oswald as an assassin (or part of an assassination team) who is conspiring with the Cubans to kill Kennedy. (This is what the known evidence shows.) With a fake Oswald visiting the Cuban Consulate. (Again, what the evidence shows.) But for some reason the CIA instructs (the real) Oswald to meet with (the real) KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov? Why would the CIA do that?

Or do you think Oswald double-crossed the CIA and met Kostikov on the sly? If so, why would he do that?

Occam's razor says that Oswald wasn't there at all, didn't meet with Kostikov, and that Kostikov made that story up. For whatever reason... maybe giggles.

 

 

It seems to me that Oswald was following instructions when he went to the theater. I see no reason to believe that he knew he was going to be accused of Kennedy's killing.

 

 

Oswald was working for the CIA. The CIA had placed him at that job. The next thing he knows, he's being arrested and Kennedy's dead. Right away he knew he's been double crossed by his employer and made to be the patsy.

 

 

Oswald may well have thought that... before his arrest. We'll never know.

 

 

There's no indication that Oswald thought he was a patsy before his arrest.

 

But for some reason the CIA instructs (the real) Oswald to meet with (the real) KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov? Why would the CIA do that?--SL

Well, to build the LHO legend. It was in the files that LHO met with the "wet worker" Kostikov. This is was the WWIII virus planted by JJ Angleton---so John Newman says. 

On LHO going home to get his gun---to me, that suggests LHO knew something had gone wrong even before getting arrested. He may not have been the triggerman, but he realized something he was involved in had turned ugly....

Just my IMHO....

 

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

On LHO going home to get his gun

A homicide detective for only three years. Rose would later gain renown as a skilled interrogator. Blocking out the hubbub, he turned his attention to the hostile suspect.

“I don’t own a gun,” the man said. “I didn’t have that gun. They planted that on me when they arrested me.”

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/1998/november/jfk-special-report-the-cop-and-the-killer/

[Jonathan Cohen]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oswald was working for the CIA. The CIA had placed him at that job.

As usual, Sandy Larsen has absolutely zero actual evidence to support either of these claims.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

S.L.:  But for some reason the CIA instructs (the real) Oswald to meet with (the real) KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov? Why would the CIA do that?

Well, to build the LHO legend. It was in the files that LHO met with the "wet worker" Kostikov. This is was the WWIII virus planted by JJ Angleton---so John Newman says. 

 

I don't think that John Newman believes that Oswald met with Kostikov. Only that evidence was planted, suggesting that he did. Which is all that would be necessary.

The CIA was building the Oswald legend for U.S. government consumption, not for Russia's (or Cuba's) consumption. In fact, if the CIA actually had Oswald meet with Kostikov, that would tip off the Russians that the CIA was playing some game.

(Does Newman still believe that Oswald even went to Mexico City?)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

59 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oswald was working for the CIA. The CIA had placed him at that job.

As usual, Sandy Larsen has absolutely zero actual evidence to support either of these claims.

 

The amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Oswald being an agent for the CIA is overwhelming.

But if Jonathan wants to remain on the wrong side of this issue -- indeed opposite of numerous highly respected researchers and authors -- who am I to  try and stop him?