Did the "Big Fish" know

[Larry Hancock]

Tim, Oswald didn't have to be killed in Cuba or taken to Cuba - he just had to be eliminated at a time and place which would have reflected him attempting to flee in that direction. Something probably most easily staged in Mexico. In any event the frame would have been further enhanced by planting some credible documents or other evidence connecting him to Castro. And if you want some pure speculation the people involved could very well have taken him out in Mexico and arranged to leave the body of a known Cuban agent with him. There was a considerable list of such and tagging and monitoring Cuban agents in Mexico was an ongoing thing for people like Phillips and Morales among others.

Great thread. A good answer to Dawn’s question about the importance of JFK forum’s.

Al refers to a second patsy in another part of the motorcade. I suspect he is right about this. But I would have thought there would have also been a second patsy in Dealey Plaza. The conspirators must have been aware that an examination of JFK’s wounds would reveal two gunman. Framing Oswald would never have been enough. They needed two patsies. The other man, like Oswald, would also have had links with left-wing groups. After all, the original plan was clearly to blame it on Castro in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. For this to work both men had to be killed. One possibility was to kill them at the scene. This definitely did not happen. A second way was to get them together and kill them on their way to Cuba. Had they set up a pilot to take them to Cuba? Was the original plan to have the plane shot down on route? If this had happened, an invasion of Cuba would have been inevitable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very interesting post, John. With respect to the plane to Cuba, however, I have these thoughts or questions.

Certainly the pilot did not know he would be going on a suicide mission. So how did the pilot expect to get into Cuba? Certainly Cuba was actively guarding its air space after the assassination in fear of a possible U.S. attack.

Another point: if indeed there were two patsies in Dealey Plaza why was the second patsy not used? It would have saved Arlen Specter a lot of grief, to be sure!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Jim Root]

All

Dawn's remarks about forums being a positive medium is correct. This thread began, in reality from "Cut to the Chase, what evidence is there" started by Tim Gratz on 12/29/2004. The "What Jane Roman Said" article was added by Richard J. Smith to that thread.

We all look at information in different ways usually attempting to support our own positions. I am no different in this regards.

As Shanet says, "I have known about the structural links suggestive of Thomas Karamessines to this operation for many years." Looking at links to Thomas Karamessines before the assassination I see the Greek Civil War, Italian General Giovanni DeLorenzo and his SIFAR organization, GLADIO and NATO's "Stay Behind Strategy." DeLorenzo ties to Karamessines directly and all the parts tie in very easily with General Edwin A. Walker and Maxwel Taylor. Toss in the fact that Karamessines was Special Assistant to the Assistant Secretary of Defense in 1954 till about 1959 and you can add a potentially strong link to the Chief of Staff of the Army, General Maxwel D. Taylor.

The fact that Oswald almost got a job with, I believe, a photograpic or printing company before the TSBD job does suggest a certain randomness to his actually securing a job at the TSBD. A chance phone call from a potential empoyer to a friend that had been a previous employer may well have changed history as we know it. This is fact not speculation.

Robert Charles-Dunne has added:

"Mr. Lawson:

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.

[WCH IV page 326]"

This completes the circle. Information on Oswald's employment address goes to Washington, Washington dictates the route. Rather simple.

Jim Root

[Dawn Meredith]

Jim:

Excellent analysis. There are NO "coincidences" in this case. Certainly none where LHO is concerned. The plan was well thought out and worked. Or it would have BUT FOR Zapruder. They did not count on that, or us.

Thanks for this great thread.

Dawn

ps A while back I asked if someone could provide a coherent analysis of proof of Zapruder forgery, now it appears that some are saying Zapruder did not even shoot the film. I just don't have the time to read thru all the long comments on this, but I have one question: If Abe didn't shoot it then who the heck did? This is getting foolish again, inho. (Unless I am misunderstanding this line, I shall call the Jack White thread, as he is the one seeming to be saying this.??)

I have little knowledge in all the photo/film analysis stuff, as I have told others it's all a blurr to me. Except one group of 4 recent photos. (That I saw on this forum and then my husband viewed and saw the same thing, clearly.) Hope to hear more on that at another time.

[Steve Thomas]

Al,

Larry and others have pointed out other places of employment for LHO to cover other venues of operation, which is an excellent and evidentiary point.

I wonder if anyone in the Forum has access to a 1963 Dallas City Directory.

If so, could anyone tell me the address of someplace called Lone Star Cadillac.

Here's why I ask:

Warren Commission Document# 0444

2/27/64 Charles Kunkel

Memo for James Rowley, Chief, SS w/attached report RE. Assassination

of President Kennedy, SS Control No. 1104 RE. interview w/H.G. Joiner

regarding LHO seeking employment at Lone Star Cadillac; Joiner not

interviewed by WC.

Don Roberdeau wrote me and asked if H.G. Joiner was related to Robert Joiner who was a member of a right wing group and had been the man dressed in the "Uncle Sam" suit in the midst of the STEVENSON assault incident, a month before the Texas

trip.

I wrote back and wondered if H.G. Joiner was related to Raymond Lee Joiner, the 16 year old who on 11/22/63 was arrested at 12:45PM at Industrial and Stemmons

for picketing the Trade Mart.

Raymond Joiner, Gene A. Guinn, Gary D. Joiner, and William L. Cummings

were arrested for Murder, Conspiracy to commit vagrancy and

trespassing. Several shells and picket signs were confiscated.

The arrest report says, "The group are known organizers of violence

and have resorted to violence in the past. Subject is an admitted

member of the Indignent White Citizens Council".

Raymond gave his address as 2413 Christopher, Grand Prairie, TX.

Dallas Police Archives Box 1, Folder# 7, Item# 49

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

On February 6, 1964 Lieutenant Jack Revill wrote a memo to CaptainGannaway outlining the groups put under surveillance prior toPresident Kennedy's visit. In his memo, he mentions the individuals picketing the Trade Mart and names the six who were picked up:"The only demonstrators observed at the Dallas Trade Mart were membersof the Indignant White Citizens' Council. Six of these individuals were taken into custody shortly after knowledge of the assassination became known. This step was taken to prevent these persons from being assaulted by spectators at the scene. The arrested persons of this group are as follows: Bobby Joiner Raymond Lee JoinerGary Dwayne Joiner Roy Eugene Joiner Gene Audra Guinn William L. E. Cummings

Dallas Police Archives, Box 13, Folder# 4, Item# 52 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box13.htm

The name of Roy Eugene Joiner is underlined in the memo.The arrest record of Raymond Lee Joiner, the 16 yearold who on 11/22/63 was arrested at 12:45PM at Industrial and Stemmonsfor picketing the Trade Mart only lists the names of Raymond Joiner, Gene A. Guinn, Gary D. Joiner, and William L. Cummings. The names of Roy and Robert, (or Bobby) are not on the arrest report.

Don Roberdeau had written that ROBERT JOINER, claimed that during the attack he was in Grand Prairie, TX. Does this mean that the police drove out to Grand Prarie and arrested Robert and Roy?

Steve Thomas

[Mike Perez]

Great Thread !!!!

I believe that the motorcade route was chosen after everybody involve in the conspiracy knew where the "patsy" was going to be. Once that was known then all the other plans such as the elimination of the "patsy" and the cover story could have the final touches developed. In the "where do we go from here thread" where it is discussed who needs to be interviewed, I believe one of the most important persons that needs to be interviewed is Agent Hosty. That man knows a lot more than he is letting on. He needs to be asked what he talked to Marina about and what was in the note that Oswald supposedly left for him at the FBI office in Dallas. To me Agent Hosty has always kind of been talking out of the side of his mouth. I also believe he had something to do with the planning of the motorcade route.

Mike

[Robert E. Cox]

LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

Jack:

This is perhaps a subject for a separate thread -- and opens another can of worms -- but I'll raise it here anyway. (BTW, I strongly agree with everyone who's commented on the qualilty of several recent threads -- this one is among them.)

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

Can you lead me, and perhaps some others, out of that thicket? Thanks.

Bob

[Tim Gratz]

LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

Jack:

This is perhaps a subject for a separate thread -- and opens another can of worms -- but I'll raise it here anyway. (BTW, I strongly agree with everyone who's commented on the qualilty of several recent threads -- this one is among them.)

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

Can you lead me, and perhaps some others, out of that thicket? Thanks.

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to agree with Jack that LHO was brought to the TSBD because of the motorcade route, and not vice-versa.

This, I think, has tremenduous implications. If indeed placing Oswald in the TSBD was part of the assassination plan, it necessarily involves Ruth Paine in that plan, does it not?

Mr. Root is arguing that the CIA knew where LHO was working and therfore the CIA was involved in the plot. I don't think there is a sufficient nexus here. If my analysis above is correct, I think it necessarily follows that Ruth Paine was involved, but we do not know who was directing her.

Threre is one thing that perhaps counters this: the evidence that LHO himself was looking for employment at other places on the parade route, e.g. the Adolphus Hotel. This evidence would suggest he had some participatory role in the assassination.

[Jack White]

LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

Jack:

This is perhaps a subject for a separate thread -- and opens another can of worms -- but I'll raise it here anyway. (BTW, I strongly agree with everyone who's commented on the qualilty of several recent threads -- this one is among them.)

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

Can you lead me, and perhaps some others, out of that thicket? Thanks.

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to agree with Jack that LHO was brought to the TSBD because of the motorcade route, and not vice-versa.

This, I think, has tremenduous implications. If indeed placing Oswald in the TSBD was part of the assassination plan, it necessarily involves Ruth Paine in that plan, does it not?

Mr. Root is arguing that the CIA knew where LHO was working and therfore the CIA was involved in the plot. I don't think there is a sufficient nexus here. If my analysis above is correct, I think it necessarily follows that Ruth Paine was involved, but we do not know who was directing her.

Threre is one thing that perhaps counters this: the evidence that LHO himself was looking for employment at other places on the parade route, e.g. the Adolphus Hotel. This evidence would suggest he had some participatory role in the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are correct. The Paines were in charge of both Harvey and Lee. (see Armstrong)

Lee stayed with Marina on weekdays, and Harvey on weekends...from available records.

Both Ruth Paine and Lee now live in Florida, it is believed.

Jack

[Tim Gratz]

LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

Jack:

This is perhaps a subject for a separate thread -- and opens another can of worms -- but I'll raise it here anyway. (BTW, I strongly agree with everyone who's commented on the qualilty of several recent threads -- this one is among them.)

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

Can you lead me, and perhaps some others, out of that thicket? Thanks.

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to agree with Jack that LHO was brought to the TSBD because of the motorcade route, and not vice-versa.

This, I think, has tremenduous implications. If indeed placing Oswald in the TSBD was part of the assassination plan, it necessarily involves Ruth Paine in that plan, does it not?

Mr. Root is arguing that the CIA knew where LHO was working and therfore the CIA was involved in the plot. I don't think there is a sufficient nexus here. If my analysis above is correct, I think it necessarily follows that Ruth Paine was involved, but we do not know who was directing her.

Threre is one thing that perhaps counters this: the evidence that LHO himself was looking for employment at other places on the parade route, e.g. the Adolphus Hotel. This evidence would suggest he had some participatory role in the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are correct. The Paines were in charge of both Harvey and Lee. (see Armstrong)

Lee stayed with Marina on weekdays, and Harvey on weekends...from available records.

Both Ruth Paine and Lee now live in Florida, it is believed.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack: I am (well, not literally) dying to read the Armstrong book (I understand all of the contributions you made to it).

Glad you agree with my assessment: if there was indeed a conspiracy the Paines (at least Ruth) almost certainly had to be a part of it. Are you "up to speed" on the unusual (perhaps incriminating) phone call that Michael Paine received shortly after the assassination?

The Paines ought to be on top of the list of people to be interviewed (right up with Marina Oswald). The problem is if they were indeed part of the conspiracy the "interview" should probably be conducted within the context of a legal proceeding. I suspect most researchers would agree it would be worthwhile to grant them immunity to get further up the chain. Of course, anyone who played a key role in the assassination may have bigger concerns than the commencement of a criminal case against him or her.

Edited January 7, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Robert E. Cox]

(Jack wrote:) LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD BECAUSE the motorcade would go down Elm.

(Bob wrote: Jack:

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." ...

Jack and Tim:

Thanks for the discussion, but my question, as quoted above, has to do with HOW Oswald was placed at the TSBD, and, more specifically, how Linnie Mae Randall fit in that chain of events.

I apparently wasn't clear in forming my question. I'll try again, because without an answer it is very difficult to support Jack's statement that "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD..."

Even though it's an unpleasant thing to admit, I've had to crack open Jerry Posner's "Case Closed" to find the Nutters' explanation of the string of events leading to Oswald's employment at the TSBD. Allow me to hold my nose and quote from page 200:

"On Monday, October 14 [1963]...while having coffee...Ruth, Marina, Dorothy Roberts and Linnie Mae Randle were discussing Lee's difficulty in obtaining work. ... Linnie Mae Randall recalled that Wesley Buell Frazier, her younger brother...had finally found a job at the Texas School Book Depository... [Quoting Randall:] 'We said he might try over there. There might be work...'" Posner then tells us that, as a result of that suggestion by Linnie Mae, Marina urged Paine to call Truly, Paine then called Truly, and Truly said, "I told Mrs. Paine to send him down...we could possibly use him for a brief time.'

This rendition of events was, Posner says, constructed from direct testimony of Paine, Truly and Randall to the Warren Commission.

For purposes of this discussion, let's assume Paine was lying. Let's assume Roy Truly was lying. Let's even assume there were two Lee-Lee Harvey-Harvey Oswald-Oswalds. Let's assume that Marina was not forthcoming. Let's even assume Lee and Ruth are shacked up under a palm tree, sipping iced Metamucil and laughing at us.

My question remains: Was it Linnie Mae Randall's suggestion that started the string of events leading to the employment of Oswald at the TSBD? If so, how does that casual remark by an Irving housewife fit into a plan to place Oswald in a job in the precise location that allowed him to become the patsy? Was Linnie Mae part of the conspiracy, too? If so, how'd she fit in? Or was she also lying to the Warren Commission? If so, why? Or is there another explanation?

Without another part to the equation, I can't see that Linnie Mae's casual remark, based on her brother's new job, squares with a plot to get Lee-Lee Harvey-Harvey a job in the TSBD. What am I missing?

Bob

[Jim Root]

Tim

In reply to your comment, "Mr. Root is arguing that the CIA knew where LHO was working and therfore the CIA was involved in the plot. I don't think there is a sufficient nexus here."

I brought back the "Seven Days in May" thread to more clearly explain my "nexus."

I know it is a lot of reading and is a rather convoluted story but the Morley article falls into place in my belief that the Taylor/Walker/Oswald story may be very important. My jump from the CIA knowing where Oswald working is to a person (Taylor) who may have been working an asset (Oswald) could have had access to the information that was generated about his asset. Simple as that, instant nexus!

Jim Root

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day.... Gr8 thread....

One word....

CONNALLY

Was he THE "big fish"?

No.

Was he one of the "fish"?

IMHO, probably. (albeit a mid-level "fish")

Some thoughts in no particular order.

Recall that CONNALLY and LBJ had been political cronies since 1939 --for 24 years

before President KENNEDY was murdered.

Recall that it was LBJ and CONNALLY who personally proposed to President

KENNEDY on 08JUN63 in El Paso, TX, that the president needed to come to

Texas....

Recall that it was CONNALLY, and his cronies, who, along with LBJ, generally

planned and, then, specifically micro-detailed most of the events scheduled during

the Texas trip....

Recall that, originally, President Kennedy was scheduled to receive an honorary

degree from Texas Christian University in Ft. Worth on the morning of 22NOV63.

After the honorary degree ceremony the president was scheduled to fly to Dallas

for a midday luncheon.

Amazingly, however, on 01NOV63* the Board of Trustees of TCU held a meeting

and decided not to award (the liberal, Catholic) President Kennedy an honorary

degree.

The decision to refuse to grant the degree to President Kennedy appears to have

resulted from petty, apparent political bickering. (also recall that one of the

main reasons for President KENNEDY deciding to embark on the Texas trip was

to help calm, apparent political bickering among the fiefdoms of Texas)

If the trustees had voted to issue the honorary degree and the ceremony at TCU

had not been cancelled, there probably would have been some delay in the

president's arrival at Dallas, and therefore the Dallas motorcade would have taken

place later than it did, and therefore, the assassination might have been frustrated

or rendered much more difficult. (11HSCA512-14).

Can anyone list the contacts/cronies that CONNALLY probably knew from TCU?

*thanks to yet another newly released FBI airtel dated November 1, 1963 the

planned second invasion of Cuba was to "begin with the last week of November

against the Cuba mainland" [emphasis added], initially with an "extended series of

small size commando type raids," followed by "a large scale amphibious

operation." (19) This invasion, structured by anti-Castro Cuban exiles on the

payroll of the CIA, appears today the probable key to understanding the

motivation behind the assassination of President KENNEDY." (Footnote 19

reference = FBI file No. 105-125147-7, airtel, Nov. 1, 1963 (pp. 3-4))

Recall CONNALLY's shouts during the seconds of the attack that have always

intrigued, and bothered me, (Mrs. KENNEDY said he squealed like a pig)

"No, no, no. They are going to kill us all."

While doing a bit of non-JFK-related web-searching I found something that has

helped me to understand better why CONNALLY's attack exclaimation has

intrigued and bothered me.

His exclaimation is what a court would define as an "excited utterance."

The law recognizes exceptions to the hearsay rule which are admissible at a

trial or hearing. One such exception frequently encountered by attorneys is the

"excited utterance" exception.

An "excited utterance" is a statement relating to a startling event or

condition made while under the stress of excitement caused by the event or

condition.

Most courts require that three criteria be met in order for a statement to be

considered an excited utterance. The statement must: 1) arise out of a

startling occasion; 2) be made before there is time to contrive and

misrepresent and 3) relate to the circumstances of the startling occasion. The

purpose of these criteria is to ensure that the statement is not the result of

deliberate reflection by the declarant.

Physical factors, such as shock, unconsciousness or pain, are examined by

courts in determining if the statement was made while the declarant was still

under the excitement of the event.

Reading about an "excited utterance" has solidified what has intrigued me about

CONNALLY's excited utterance during the attack....

....CONNALLY unswervingly stated that he tried to see the President, but never

did.... therefore, there is no way that he knew the President, NOR ANYONE ELSE,

had been impacted.... therefore, CONNALLY's excited utterance choice of the

word "They" when he shouted "THEY are going to kill us all!" makes no sense....

....unless....

....in that moment of realization, it crystallized to him that his co-conspirators plan

also included eliminating him.

That being said, let me "put out there" a few thoughts, that are in no particular

order....

....I do not know if the CONNALLY's had a good or bad marriage. Can anyone

provide any details? Did either/both of them ever commit adultery,

physical-abuse, and/or mental-abuse, etc.? If they did have a bad

marriage, it certainly is not impossible, and not out of the rhelm of

possibilty, that CONNALLY just did not care if NELLIE was shot.

From “THE ADVANCE MAN,” by Jerry Bruno. Ken O'Donnell had sent Bruno to

Texas as part of the planing for KENNEDY's trip there in November. Here is what

BRUNO wrote about a 29OCT63 meeting with CONNALLY and his cronies....

<QUOTE>

It was a really friendly atmosphere, Connally was at the head of the conference

table. He's tall.....All around him on either side of the table were his aides.

As we sat there, Connally began outlining the schedule for KENNEDY's trip. It was

firm, he kept insisting; it was his state, and if the President didn't like it, he could

stay home. That really made me feel good.

"I just want to tell you one thing, Governor," I said. "He's the President. I'm here

to get everybody's recommendations, and I'll forward them to the White House.

But they'll decide."

With that, Connally jumped up from the table, and grabbed a phone, and

said, "Get me the White House." Then we all waited. "Get me Ken O'Donnell."

Then he started talking aout the entire schedule: here's what's going to happen in

Houston, here's what we'll do in San Antonio, Then we wait.

"Fine, fine, I'll get back to you, " Connally said. And he came back to the table and

started in, saying, "This is what we want him to do."

I learned only later---a lot later, when it really didn't make any difference--that

Kenny had told him the same thing I had, that it was the White House that

would make any final decision.

Anyway, we went around one or two more times, and then Connally just got

up and left.

<END QUOTE>

....With the knowledge that CONNALLY flat-out lied about his call to the

White House when he had the heated argument with "D.N.C." Texas-trip

advanceman HAL "Jerry" BRUNO, how can that be defined as anything except,

very, sinister?

....Now add to THAT the fact that the morning of 22NOV63 LBJ also had by all

listeners accounts, a very loud, very heated argument with President KENNEDY

when LBJ tried to get his buddy (some would say his Texas-fiefdom-croney)

CONNALLY out of riding in the soon-to-be-attacked limousine, and get (one of) his

enemies, RALPH YARBOROUGH, into CONNALLY's jumpseat, how can that be

viewed as anything except suspicious, at the least. IMO, it is not logical that LBJ

would actually desire, or want to allow if he felt he could change the President's

mind, an enemy of LBJ (and CONNALLY) gaining any political points by

YARBOROUGH sharing the "limelight" with, and ear of, the President of the United

States.

BRUNO note references follow. I would also recommend searching VINCE

PALAMARA's outstanding site, here:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP.html

20OCT63....HAL "Jerry" BRUNO, "Democrats National Committee," learns about the

Texas trip.

24OCT63....Jerry Bruno meets with Walter Jenkins, at the request of Kenny

O'Donnell. Jenkins is LBJ's administrative assistant. Jenkins was to brief

Bruno on the politics of the trip. Bruno writes, "It was like listening to

somebody talking all about an incurable disease. What we had was a

governor, John CONNALLY, who was the leader of the conservative Texas

Democrats: oil money, corporate leaders, some rural "redneck" strength. On

the other side was Senator Ralph Yarborough, a Southern liberal, supported

by labor (which was liberal in Texas), blacks, Latin Americans, and

intellectuals.

"They hated each other."

O'Donnell described CONNALLY to Bruno, "You're dealing with an arrogant

guy here."

28OCT63....Bruno went to see Yarborough on October 28, 1963. Yarborough,

"described how CONNALLY and Johnson were screwing him; worse, he said,

they'd be after John KENNEDY in a minute if they thought they could get

away with it politically."

....Is it impossible that the co-conspirators, simply, told CONNALLY the President

would be fired at from the front, greatly lessening the odds CONNALLY would be

shot? Is it possible that the conspirators impressed upon CONNALLY that world-

class marksmen would be targeting only President KENNEDY?

....I have been graze-shot once before. When I was shot, I very quickly

exclaimed, "xxxx, I'm shot." CONNALLY had a 4" or 5" sucking-air chest wound. It

HAD to be painful just to breathe those first few hyperventillated breaths right

after being shot, much less exclaim the far-lengthier excited utterance, "No, no.

no. My God. THEY are going to shoot us all!" I'll repeat again, CONNALLY said he

did not ever see the President (although I have my doubts circa his Zf-270-280

head position....perhaps he just did not remember seeing him?). If he never saw

the President, as far as he knew, only he had been shot before he exclaimed his

excited utterance. I understand that his excited utterance was shouted, more-than-

likely, without forethought, and, I understand that without forethought, he could

have said anything related.... its just his sub-conscious choice of words that

intrigues me--I guess based on my being shot experience.... then again, maybe

the use of "they" and "us all" was his way of attracting immediate attention from

all limo occupants to not only get them to take defensive measures on their own,

but to also heighten the gravity of the situation so as to get the limo SS agents to

do their job (which they did not).

Maybe someone else who has known many people to have been shot can detail

what they exclaim.... probably some studies about it somewhere. (I am familiar

that sometimes people do not realize immediately that he/she has been shot)

....Also, is it totally impossible, that if CONNALLY did have foreknowledge, that the

co-conspirators lied to him about exactly when the attack would occur?.... implying

that if CONNALLY had foreknowledge, he had been told the attack would occur in a

location after Dealey Plaza and before/as the President arrived/was at/departed

the Trade Mart. This dovetails into my theory that knowing how a military mind

works, there was probably a backup attack plan in Dallas (plans, within contingent

scenario's, within redundant schemes) If LBJ was a co-conspirator, which I

have NEVER discounted, maybe LBJ told him not to worry, "even though I

could not get you out of the limo, the attack will happen at the Trade Mart."....

even if that was told CONNALLY, have you studied CONNALLY's expressions in

many of the photographic images captured at Love Field?

Is it possible that the conspirators --despite whatever they told CONNALLY--

decided to also kill him (to and a link to conspirators "above" CONNALLY in the

"food chain"?

I guess it all boils down to your personal interpretation. Can anyone think of any

other related facts, details, and/or considerations that would support CONNALLY's

foreknowledge, or, support his lack of foreknowledge?

I am curious.... have any of you ever been shot? If so, how did you react, and

what did you say, etc.?

....as an aside thought.... I remember CONNALLY had to declare bankruptcy (in

1983, I think).... but, has anyone ever researched his finances in the immediate

years before and after the assassination?

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"From a moral standpoint, Johnson had no use for religion except for the political

benefits that it bestowed upon him. He had no use for the sanctity of marriage

except for the voting benefits it offered to him as a 'married man.' And, his desire

for alcohol, just like with sex, was excessive. In short, moral rules relating to his

personal conduct had no effect on stopping him from getting what he wanted."

----CRAIG ZIRBEL summarizing a detailed analysis supporting LBJ's moral

characteristics that may have prompted LBJ's motivations for wanting President

assassinated, "The Texas Connection" (pg.108)

Edited January 8, 2005 by Don Roberdeau

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day.... Found an interesting article, "The Truth About John Connally," that may provide additional insights into CONNALLY's character, backround, history, etc.

The article was originally written in NOV79, when CONNALLY was already pursuing the Republican nomination for president....

http://www.texasmonthly.com/archive/w30197...nnallyFeb03.htm

The article seems to generally answer one of the questions (CONNALLY's finances circa/post 1963) I asked in my previous post, and, is somewhat nebulous about answering another (relationship with NELLIE)....

"His net worth doubled while he was in office, from around half a million dollars to a million, but most of that was represented by ranchland."

"He is fond of his wife."

.... Interesting article comment, here....

"Seldom has intelligence been an asset in Texas politics; not too long ago a legislator explained to me why an apparently able colleague had so little influence: "He reads books. Real books"; but Connally's luck was in. This was 1962, and Jack Kennedy was in the White House, surrounded by Harvard professors and other certified intellectuals who, it was said, brought glamour and respectability to politics. Connally seemed to fit right in, an ambassador from Camelot, though in truth he already loathed the Kennedys for looking down on Lyndon Johnson. " (my emphasis)

....which, if that comment is true about CONNALLY feeling that way and knowing that information, might indicate that LBJ had been venting to CONNALLY about the KENNEDYs treatment of LBJ as LBJ perceived it.... LBJ --loyal only to himself-- never really cared who he shoveled shipe around and/or onto and/or to, did he?

....24 years, loyally, working for LBJ as of 1963, indeed.

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"Our enemy is a radical network of worldwide terrorists, and, any nation that supports them."

----President GEORGE BUSH, 2001

Edited January 10, 2005 by Don Roberdeau

[Pat Speer]

As far as Connally's involvement, while some see this as unlikely due to his sitting right in front of Kennedy in the motorcade, I see no such conflict. It seems that at least two others in the plot i.e. Oswald, Ruby, were under orders from someone, even though these orders put their lives at risk. Let's consider Connally a possible third and ponder the question of who might be so powerful they could order the governor of Texas around?

Perhaps it should be pointed out that Connally's entire career came as a result of his relationship with LBJ and prominent Texas oil men. Might Connally not have taken one for the team? People risk their lives in bank robberies all the time. There were billions of dollars at stake for LBJ and his Texas backers. By being in the car, Connally cleared the state of Texas of any complicity, and made sure he personally was not tainted by the assassination. If anything, his wounding insured that some of the Kennedy "magic" rubbed off on him, even though he and Kennedy were at opposite ends on many issues. Tough men make tough decisions. Connally was nothing but tough.

As to Roberdeau's question about the Connally marriage, I believe they were devoted to each other. As to Connally's possible lack of concern for his own life, well, perhaps that can be traced to his daughter's tragic suicide. That's the kind of thing that changes a man. This is all conjecture, of course. Still, I believe Connally's possible role has been rejected offhand by too many.

[Jack White]

As to Roberdeau's question about the Connally marriage, I believe they were devoted to each other.  As to Connally's possible lack of concern for his own life, well, perhaps that can be traced to his daughter's tragic suicide.  That's the kind of thing that changes a man.  This is all conjecture, of course.  Still,  I believe Connally's possible role has been rejected offhand by too many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My recollection about Connally's daughter is that she was not

a suicide, but was shot by her husband in a domestic dispute.

Her husband was the son of a former FBI man.

Jack