Did the "Big Fish" know

[Dawn Meredith]

As to Roberdeau's question about the Connally marriage, I believe they were devoted to each other.  As to Connally's possible lack of concern for his own life, well, perhaps that can be traced to his daughter's tragic suicide.  That's the kind of thing that changes a man.  This is all conjecture, of course.  Still,  I believe Connally's possible role has been rejected offhand by too many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My recollection about Connally's daughter is that she was not

a suicide, but was shot by her husband in a domestic dispute.

Her husband was the son of a former FBI man.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_________________________________-

Keep in mind that it was LBJ who emphatically did not want Connally next to JFK, but wanted Sen Yarborough, ( a liberal), instead. Was Connally involved in this heated discussion?

Great points Dan!!!

Dawn

[Pat Speer]

My recollection about Connally's daughter is that she was not

a suicide, but was shot by her husband in a domestic dispute.

Her husband was the son of a former FBI man.

According to Connally's autobio, In History's Shadow, where he states that he has never publicly commented about his daughter's death before, nor will ever again, his daughter ran off to get married to her boyfriend after getting pregnant, and killed herself a short time later after a fight with her husband. It's clear from his account there was some bad feelings between him and his son-in-law. The impression as I remember was that the son-in-law had left the house after she threatened to kill herself, almost defying her to do so. Of course, it's possible he killed her, but no charges were ever filed. While the father of the boy may have been former FBI, his occupation as recounted by Connally was chief of security for General Dynamics, a company central to the Bobby Baker scandal. (as I remember)

[Jack White]

My recollection about Connally's daughter is that she was not

a suicide, but was shot by her husband in a domestic dispute.

Her husband was the son of a former FBI man.

According to Connally's autobio, In History's Shadow, where he states that he has never publicly commented about his daughter's death before, nor will ever again, his daughter ran off to get married to her boyfriend after getting pregnant, and killed herself a short time later after a fight with her husband. It's clear from his account there was some bad feelings between him and his son-in-law. The impression as I remember was that the son-in-law had left the house after she threatened to kill herself, almost defying her to do so. Of course, it's possible he killed her, but no charges were ever filed. While the father of the boy may have been former FBI, his occupation as recounted by Connally was chief of security for General Dynamics, a company central to the Bobby Baker scandal. (as I remember)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may be correct. Locally, the whole affair was rather "hushed up". It was many

years ago. I remember that it was after a domestic dispute, but maybe it WAS a

suicide. The boy's father was I.B.Hale, a retired FBI agent who later became

security chief for General Dynamics. My memory is hazy, but I thought the husband

was involved.

Jack

[Don Roberdeau]

Was Connally involved in this heated discussion?

Great points Dan!!!

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....Good Day Dawn.... Thanks.

The heated, apparently loud argument between President KENNEDY and LBJ took place at the "Hotel Texas" in Ft. Worth that President KENNEDY was staying at during the early morning of 22NOV63.

(see MANCHESTER's "The Death of a President"-- somewhere within pages 80-90, I think)

CONNALLY was not present during the LBJ encounter. (I think CONNALLY was in another city that morning --San Antonio, maybe?)

EVELYN LINCOLN --President KENNEDY's secretary-- had brought some friends of hers to the Presidential suite to briefly meet the President. Mrs. Lincoln: "I dressed in a dark blue suit and then asked a maid to clean the room. I had some friends from Dallas coming to have breakfast. "I walked to the president's room ... and asked him if he'd mind meeting my friends. "He told the Secret Service to let me know when he started to leave so I could bring my friends out to the hallway to meet him. ... He was in a very happy mood."

General EDWIN WALKER's possible connections in the months preceding the assassination are both convoluted and intriguing. A driver and aide to Walker in the fall of 1963 was the brother of Larrie Schmidt, who along with Bernard Weissman, authored the infamous "Welcome Mr. Kennedy To Dallas/WANTED FOR TREASON..." ad which ran in the "Dallas Morning News" the morning of November 22. The ad, which carried a heavy black border, asked 12 loaded questions to KENNEDY ending with "Why have you scrapped the Monroe Doctrine in favor of the `Spirit of Moscow'?" Financial contributors to this anti-KENNEDY ad included:

oilman H.L. Hunt's son, Nelson Bunker Hunt

Joseph Grinnan, volunteer coordinator for the local John Birch Society

and H.R. "Bum" Bright, former owner of the Dallas Cowboys.

The ad was signed "The American Fact-Finding Committee," but Weissman admitted to the Warren Commission that the group was "formed strictly for the purpose of having a name to put in the paper." Here is the text of that full page advert that appeared on page 14 of the "DMN" accompanied with the “WANTED FOR TREASON” headline and the 2 police mugshot-type photos of the President:

<QUOTE>

MR. KENNEDY, despite the contentions on the part of your administration, the State Department, the Mayor of Dallas, the Dallas City Council, and members of your party, we free-thinking and American-thinking citizens of Dallas still have, through a Constitution largely ignored by you, the right to address our grievances, to question you, to disagree with you, and to criticize you.

In asserting this constitutional right, we wish to ask you publicly the following questions--indeed, questions of paramount importance and interest to all free people everywhere--which we trust you will answer...in public, without sophistry. These questions are:

WHY is Latin America turning either anti-American or Communistic, or both, despite increased U.S. foreign aid, State Department policy, and your own Ivy-Tower pronouncements? 

WHY do you say we have built a "wall of freedom" around Cuba when there is no freedom in Cuba today? Because of your policy, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned, are starving and being persecuted--with thousands already murdered and thousands more awaiting execution and, in addition, the entire population of almost 7,000,000 Cubans are living in slavery. 

WHY have you approved the sale of wheat and corn to our enemies when you know the Communist soldiers "travel on their stomachs" just as ours do? Communist soldiers are daily wounding and/or killing American soldiers in South Vietnam. 

WHY did you host, salute and entertain Tito--Moscow's Trojan Horse--just a short time after our sworn enemy, Khrushchev, embraced the Yugoslav dictator as a great hero and leader of Communism? 

WHY have you urged greater aid, comfort, recognition, and understanding for Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, and other Communist countries, while turning your back on the pleas of Hungarians, East German, Cuban and other anti-Communist freedom fighters? 

WHY did Cambodia kick the U.S. out of its country after we poured nearly 400 Million Dollars of aid into its ultra-leftist government? 

WHY has Gus Hall, head of the U.S. Communist Party, praised almost everyone of your policies and announced that the party will endorse and support your re-election in 1964? 

WHY have you banned the showing at U.S. military bases of the film "Operation Abolition"--the movie by the House Committee on Un-American Activities exposing Communism in America? 

WHY have you ordered or permitted your brother Bobby, the Attorney General, to go soft on Communists, fellow-travelers, and ultra-leftists in America, while permitting him to persecute loyal Americans who criticize you, your administration, and your leadership? 

WHY are you in favor of the U.S. continuing to give economic aid to Argentina, in spite of the fact that Argentina has just seized almost 400 Million Dollars of American private property? 

WHY has the Foreign Policy of the United States degenerated to the point that the C.I.A. is arranging coups and having staunch Anti-Communist Allies of the U.S. bloodily exterminated? 

WHY have you scrapped the Monroe Doctrine in favor of the "Spirit of Moscow"?

MR. KENNEDY, as citizens of these United States of America, we DEMAND answers to these questions, and we want them NOW.

<END QUOTE>

(another Walker aide, Robert Allan Surrey, produced the "Wanted for Treason" leaflets which were distributed along the motorcade route. Surrey later revealed to researcher Penn Jones that one of his close bridge-playing friends was none other than JAMES HOSTY, the FBI agent who, on orders from GORDON SHANKLIN via washDC after OSWALD was killed, destroyed an early-November note to the FBI from OSWALD. (as STONE correctly illuminated via COSTNER in "JFK," if the note incriminated OSWALD in any way supporting the warrenatti canard/"lone nut" theories, the warrenatti, surely, would have kept the note))

The same 22NOV63 "DMN" also notes that the motorcade would travel through downtown Dallas onto the Stemmons Freeway, and reported that "the motorcade will move slowly so that crowds can 'get a good view' of President KENNEDY and his wife."

After having read the same "Dallas Morning News" and seeing the above advertisement, President KENNEDY handed the paper to JACKIE, saying:

"Can you imagine a newspaper doing that? We're headed into nut country, now."

Apparently considering the possible implications of this, KENNEDY said that when it comes to assassinating a President, "Anyone perched above the crowd with a rifle could do it." (later that same morning, President KENNEDY and Larry O'Brien, a close friend and aide, were looking out a “Hotel Texas” window toward the parking lot where the president would give a brief address minutes later. O'Brien: "They were putting the final touches on the stand out in a large parking lot in front of the hotel where he was going to make an appearance, and he made a comment that 'if someone wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult, would it?' ")

....At about the same time President KENNEDY is showing the "DMN" to Mrs KENNEDY, Dallas patrolman JEFFERSON DAVIS TIPPIT was leaving for work (he voluntarily exchanged duty at the request of a DPD friend that day). After kissing his children goodbye as he left for work TIPPIT tells his wife he loved her and his children, "no matter what happens today."

....Soon, LBJ suddenly came to the Presidential suite and went inside while LINCOLN's friends remained outside in the hallway waiting to meet President KENNEDY.

Mrs. KENNEDY left the main suite (Truth that has been told, she really did not like LBJ very much) and had gone into another room to practice her Spanish and practice a speech she was to give later, so, she did not clearly hear the specifics of the JFK/LBJ cascading-decibels argument (that is to say, MANCHESTER claims she did not clearly hear specifics; perhaps her 500 pages of oral history transcript that is still secreted within the JFK library until 2054, or, until after CAROLINE dies --whichever happens last-- will reveal that she heard more --maybe even, much more-- than MANCHESTER reported and/or more than MANCHESTER was told?)

LBJ was visibly consumed in a furious rage when he stomped out of the suite and pump-strutted down the hallway away from the Presidential suite.

Right after this heated meeting is when JFK said to Mrs. KENNEDY (paraphrasing), "Well that's Lyndon --and he's in trouble." (possibly --probably-- referring to the 4 scandals being investigated as of 22NOV63 in which LBJ's name had surfaced in each scandal as to his being involved/complicit.... Of course, we also know now that none of those 4 of scandals were ever linked to LBJ --AFTER the attack)....

....As President KENNEDY's longtime secretary EVELYN LINCOLN detailed in her 1968 book, "Kennedy & Johnson".... on 20NOV63 President KENNEDY had discussed with her --and most likely several other persons-- that (just as NIXON publicly stated in Dallas) President KENNEDY was going to replace LBJ before the 1964 presidential race began. (I think LINCOLN wrote that KENNEDY told her that his new VP would be then-North Carolina Governor, TERRY SANFORD)

....Also, recall that it was the evening of 21NOV63 that self-proclaimed LBJ mistress, MADELEINE BROWN, claims that LBJ told her,

"After tomorrow those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again. --That's no threat-- That's a promise."

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" plank walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"How did it happen they ("they"?!!) hit Connally?"

- LBJ, despite the multitude of "lone nut" statements the previous 7 days, during a 29NOV63 phone conversation with his longtime friend, longtime neighbor, & soon-to-be-appointed-by-LBJ FBI Director "for-life", J. EDGAR HOOVER

Edited January 11, 2005 by Don Roberdeau

[Pat Speer]

[quote

You may be correct. Locally, the whole affair was rather "hushed up". It was many

years ago. I remember that it was after a domestic dispute, but maybe it WAS a

suicide. The boy's father was I.B.Hale, a retired FBI agent who later became

security chief for General Dynamics. My memory is hazy, but I thought the husband

was involved.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I double-checked the book, Jack, and you may be right about it being a murder. Connally says the son-in-law, Bobby Hale, upon coming home and finding his wife pointing a shotgun at her head "said he tried to talk her into putting the gun down. She kept threatening to use it. He made a grab for it, he said, and the gun went off."

Connally then expresses some doubt. He says "Exactly what happened in that room, what was said, what was done, we will never be completely sure. A deputy in the sheriff's office told us there may have been a suicide pact, and Bobby backed out."

Does anyone know what became of I.B. Hale?

[John Simkin]

Does anyone know what became of I.B. Hale?

Died in 1971. His twin sons, Bobby and Billy Hale, went missing after breaking in to Exner's apartment for General Dynamics. Tommy Hale, the younger brother is alive and living in Fort Worth. He claims that Hale had a close relationship with Hoover and took all his secrets to the grave. Jack White is from Fort Worth, maybe he can try and interview Tommy Hale.

[Jim Root]

Don

How do you feel about Walker being a possible plant to spy on the right?

In my research on the man, many of the soldiers that served under him are surprized by his alledged racism. Never seemed to have been apparent while he was in the Army. His Pro Blue Program was anti-communist dogma and the "racist" label just seems to have been added for good measure.

"Ted" Walker would say to any order that was given to him, "check" and then proceed to carry it out no matter what the danger.

Jim Root

[John Simkin]

Does anyone know what became of I.B. Hale?

I have just come across a very interesting reference to Hale in Barr McClellan’s book Blood, Money & Power. McClellan claimed that Mac Wallace had two close friends at High School who later moved in LBJ’s orbit: “Insall B. Hale would go to Convair Industries in Fort Worth and Dave O’Brien would head security for Dallas oilman H. L. Hunt. Both were close friends, and as top marksmen with the FBI, they helped set up the Quantico firing school.”

It is the only reference to Hale. He seems to be unaware that he was involved in the Judith Exner break-in.

[Greg Parker]

Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

The application is mentioned in CE2444. Having looked into this a few years ago, and despite being unable to find the actual application, I concluded that Oswald almost certainly applied for the job in person inToledo. I based that on the fact that Toledo is the location mentioned in the FBI document, inquiries led me to believe Devilbiss had no presence in Dallas (or NO), and a portion of the application was completed (according to the FBI) by someone other than Oswald - indicating the application had been reviewed by either an employment agency - or more likely, imo, whoever did the hiring and firing at Devilbiss.

I take it the information I got back then was wrong? Do you have a copy of the application?

What interested me back then was that Devilbiss was closely associated with Rand, and made similar products - including the type of spray gun Webster was hawking to the Soviets. And Toledo (location of Devilbiss HQ) is not very far at all from Webster's home town.

Of course, if they also had premises near the trade mart... that also seems very significant.

[George Bollschweiler]

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

First it would be necessary to know if LHO was involved in the plot and if yes how much he knew about it. That the job oppertunity was first mentioned by Linnie Mae Randle and Ruth Paine called Truly would conclude that Oswald for himself had no intension to apply there. After he was told to go there, he was interviewed by Truly and got the job. This of course leaves behind an other question: if it was not his intension to find a job at the TSDB, after he got it he must have been monitored by someone to asure he's going to be there at the day of the assasination.

What for instance if Oswald had been ill that day? So to bring him there was one thing to keep him in the „right position“ meaning the 5th floor and rigth building,

was another and therefore IMO makes Roy Truly an important figure. I’d like to remember that it was Truly who told the police right away at 12:36 that LHO was the ONLY missing person out of 90 employees !

What do we know about Roy Truly?

[John Simkin]

What do we know about Roy Truly?

According to Henry Wade, Oswald claimed that a few days before the assassination, Truly was seen showing off a rifle inside the TSBD.

Truly was standing on the north curb of Elm Street when the assassination took place. He told the Warren Commission that the shots came from the direction of the Grassy Knoll.

[Antti Hynonen]

George Bollschweiler Posted Today, 01:35 PM

  QUOTE

I would appreciate having your theory of HOW "LHO was placed in a job in the TSBD." As I remember, the Posner posse argues that Oswald got his lead for the job at the TSBD as the result of a casual conversation among four housewives in Irving -- Linnie Mae Randle, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and another one named Roberts. They argue that it was Randle -- Wesley Buell Frazier's sister -- who first raised the possibility of a job opening at the book depository, and that her idea was followed up by Paine, who called Roy Truly, the TSBD superintendent who ultimately hired Oswald. If this rendition is true, Linnie Mae was part of a conspiracy to place LHO in the book depository, which, I think, we'd all agree is a shaky proposition.

What's the counter argument to that tale of innocence from the Irving Housewives? I think Paine confirmed that version, and Truly confirmed that Paine called him. Were they both lying? Did Linnie Mae ever confirm it? How about Roberts? And if so, how do we hook them up with the conspiracy to get LHO in the shooter's nest?

First it would be necessary to know if LHO was involved in the plot and if yes how much he knew about it. That the job oppertunity was first mentioned by Linnie Mae Randle and Ruth Paine called Truly would conclude that Oswald for himself had no intension to apply there. After he was told to go there, he was interviewed by Truly and got the job. This of course leaves behind an other question: if it was not his intension to find a job at the TSDB, after he got it he must have been monitored by someone to asure he's going to be there at the day of the assasination.

What for instance if Oswald had been ill that day? So to bring him there was one thing to keep him in the „right position“ meaning the 5th floor and rigth building,

was another and therefore IMO makes Roy Truly an important figure. I’d like to remember that it was Truly who told the police right away at 12:36 that LHO was the ONLY missing person out of 90 employees !

What do we know about Roy Truly?

* Roy is dead now

* Roy's boss took in a Mauser deer rifle and another rifle into the TSBD -building a few days before the assassination to show it around.

* Roy was a little over staffed in October but still hired Oswald because he felt sorry for him (Oswald had a baby coming and another one at home and he was an ex-marine)

* Roy saw Oswald in the TSBD at about 12:32 on 11/22/63 with DPD officer Marrion Baker, but then decided he was missing at 12:36, dug up the Paine's Irving address and gave it to the cops.

* I recall hearing rumours that Roy was associated with some extreme group (right wing?) I'm not sure.... could be BS

I'm pretty sure the eye witnesses and most investigators agree the snipers lair is on the 6th floor of the TSBD...

Edited February 3, 2005 by Antti Hynonen

[Steve Thomas]

Don,

General EDWIN WALKER's possible connections in the months preceding the assassination are both convoluted and intriguing. A driver and aide to Walker in the fall of 1963 was the brother of Larrie Schmidt, who along with Bernard Weissman, authored the infamous "Welcome Mr. Kennedy To Dallas/WANTED FOR TREASON..." ad which ran in the "Dallas Morning News" the morning of November 22.

I ran across this the other day and found it interesting.

From Alfred McCoy's The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, as quoted in The Opium Lords.

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/corsicans.htm

Referring to NCO Clubs, "Accounting systems were shoddy, and the entire system was pathetically vulnerable to well-organized graft. Seven sergeants who had served together in the Twenty-fourth Infantry Division at Augsburg, Germany, during the early 1960s had discovered this weakness and exploited it fully, stealing up to $40,000 a month from NCO clubs.117

In 1965 these seven sergeants started showing up in Vietnam as mess custodians and club managers at the First Infantry Division, the American Division, and U.S. army headquarters at Long Binh.118 Most important of all, the group's ringleader, Sgt William 0. Wooldridge, was appointed sergeant major of the army in July 1966. As the army's highest-ranking enlisted man, he served directly under the army chief of staff at the Pentagon, where he was in an ideal position to manipulate personnel transfers and cover up the group's activities."119

The footnote references come from U.S. Congress, Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Committee on Government Operations, Fraud and Corruption in Management of Military Club Systems-Illeqal Currency Manipulations A flecting South Vietnam, 91 st Cong., 2nd sess., 92nd Cong., I st sess., 1971, pt. 4

Steve Thomas

[George Bollschweiler]

Roy saw Oswald in the TSBD at about 12:32 on 11/22/63 with DPD officer Marrion Baker, but then decided he was missing at 12:36, dug up the Paine's Irving address and gave it to the cops.

I recall hearing rumours that Roy was associated with some extreme group (right wing?) I'm not sure.... could be BS

I'm pretty sure the eye witnesses and most investigators agree the snipers lair is on the 6th floor of the TSBD...

Of course your are right Antti, I meant the 6th floor as you count the ground floor as 1th floor.

The fact that Roy Truly reported LHO as missing without any logical reason, because he just saw him moments ago, makes him IMO a suspicious figure.

His time memory varies between 5 and 20 minutes which is compared to the minutely detailed reports what happened in the aftermath of the assasination a tremendous time gap.

Mr. Dulles.

When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles.

You did not?

Mr. Truly.

No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative Ford.

Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?

Mr. Truly.

I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Do you have any more information about Roys possible connections to right wingers? To me it seems that Truly is worth some more investigation because he played a major part in starting the hunt for Oswald.

[George Bollschweiler]

According to Henry Wade, Oswald claimed that a few days before the assassination, Truly was seen showing off a rifle inside the TSBD.

Hi John,

I just came across this article concerning the two rifles.

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/Meeting%20Warren%20Caster.htm

Edited February 4, 2005 by George Bollschweiler