Did the "Big Fish" know

[Shanet Clark]

Photo was taken at the time of the initial throat shot.

I believe this is called Altgens #6...

Someone had already fired at least one round from the COUNTY RECORDS BUILDING,the DALLAS TEXTILES BUILDING or the TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY and Altgens shows agents looking back, (at loveday/oswald.)

There is a very fine silkscreen of this photo in THE TORCH IS PASSED (1964)

[Jim Root]

Greg and Shanet

Let's for a moment suppose the Altgens photo does in fact show Oswald outside the TSBD. Then we must consider or defend this senerio:

Kennedy is shot within eyesight of Oswald and he immediatley goes back inside the TSBD and up to the lunch room. Then, according to some, Oswald gets a coke and approaches the Dallas policeman (who also enters the TSBD from the same location as Oswald would have) Then, Oswald travels in the opposite direction from which he had just entered the lunch room a few seconds before, (remember the policeman ran into the building in a minimal amout of time) and exits the lunch room. Oswald is identified by the manager who is now with the policeman. After being scene in the lunchroom, placing himself inside the building from which the Warren Commission says the shots were fired from, Oswald then "escapes" out of the building (retracing his steps of moments before) because he, after drinking his coke, realizes someone is setting him up.

Or we can consider that Oswald passed the policeman in the lunchroom area on his way down from an upper floor on his escape route out of the building.

Jim Root

[Shanet Clark]

Honestly, I think Oswald was inside, like Greg said. He was probably told to wait somewhere, etc. Judyth's account of their phone calls might point to him taking a part in the plot in order to "muck it up" / not fire / fire over Kennedy's head / try to stop a shooter if he was a spotter, etc.

However, Loveday is a dead ringer with the same face, shirt and missing button.

Another mystery......

[Greg Wagner]

Honestly, I think Oswald was inside, like Greg said. He was probably told to wait somewhere, etc. Judyth's account of their phone calls might point to him taking a part in the plot in order to "muck it up" / not fire / fire over Kennedy's head / try to stop a shooter if he was a spotter, etc.

However, Loveday is a dead ringer with the same face, shirt and missing button.

Another mystery......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is one of those things that I waffle on from time to time... because I just don't know. The more that I look at the Altgens photo, the more I'm convinced it's Oswald. But it seems to me that his handler would have made some attempt to keep him out of sight during the time the motorcade passed by the TSBD. The "wait for a phone call at X time in X room" seems to be a very plausible control device in this scenario. But then why would LHO disobey and be standing out front in plain sight?

Two questions:

1) Was the motorcade on schedule at the time of the shooting?

2) Has anyone ever tried to ID others in that same Altgens photo for purposes of identifying the potential Oswald figure standing near them?

Edited February 17, 2005 by Greg Wagner

[George Bollschweiler]

1) Was the motorcade on schedule at the time of the shooting?

Greg,

in ajweberman nodule 17, he states that JFK was scheduled to speak at the Trade Mart at 12:30.

George

[Tim Gratz]

George is correct. The motorcade was running only slightly more than five minutes late.

[Shanet Clark]

Perhaps there was a crossfire, or "friendly fire..."

Perhaps the TSBD shooter didn't really want to kill Kennedy,

and took a shot at the team on the knoll, injuring the

BADGEMAN, the BLACK DOG MAN, or the NIX CLASSIC GUNMAN.

This would explain the blood.

Oswald hinted to Judyth he might do something like that....

[Tim Gratz]

Interesting thought, Shanet.

Can you "bring me up to speed" on the blood issue?

Thanks.

[Shanet Clark]

Interesting thought, Shanet.

Can you "bring me up to speed" on the blood issue?

Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two Large Puddles of Blood.

One was at the NIX Classic Gunman position, between the retaining wall and the fence on the grassy knoll. It is in the Crouch Film.

The other puddle of blood that afternoon was at the sidewalk of the TSBD, near the gate where "Lansdale" got so close to the three "tramps"

-- the two puddles of blood are often mixed up in the testimony and commentary............never explained. Since the Police and Secret Service didn't return fire, it is reasonable to assume the blood came from shots fired during the ambush, ie crossfire.

I don't think you can see the Retaining Wall position from the 6th floor "nest"

but there is some evidence shots came from another window or the roof of the

TSBD....perhaps Oswald and Tippett were a two man team who wanted to

foul things up and shot at the grassy knoll sniper.

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet, again, most interesting. Thanks!

Is there general consensus on the blood issue?

Is it in any police reports, or has it only been oberved in the photograhic record?

[Shanet Clark]

Shanet, again, most interesting.  Thanks!

Is there general consensus on the blood issue?

Is it in any police reports, or has it only been oberved in the photograhic record?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Testimony and photos support it. Bill Miller and others downplay it as a soft drink.

One witness said he tasted it and confirmed it was blood, but I think that was the "Lansdale gate" puddle, not the one at the wall.

I think Tippett was killed for the same reason Oswald was framed and killed,

they were both trying to save Kennedy after signing on to work the operation...

[Tim Gratz]

But Shanet I had recently come to the conclusion LHO could not have been a shooter because he was seen on the second floor so soon after the shots rang out. Your thoughts re this issue?

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Jim,

We hear a lot about whether or not Oswald could have fired the shots in the time necessary but we have or, at least, I have never heard any debate on whether Oswald would have had the time to shoot, stash the rifle, walk/run/bolt downstairs buy a Coke and then encounter the policeman.

On a different point entirely I have noticed that nearly everyone who heard the shots says s/he thought the shots sounded like firecrackers. Is there any evidence to suggest that firecrackers were used as a diversionary tactic?

Have you any data on these points?

Gene

Edited February 17, 2005 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Tim Gratz]

Eugene wrote:

We hear a lot about whether or not Oswald could have fired the shots in the time necessary but we have or, at least, I have never heard any debate on whether Oswald would have had the time to shoot, stash the rifle, walk/run/bolt downstairs buy a Coke and then encounter the policeman.

Oh, I think this issue is widely discussed. It was discussed in the "JFK" film. It is my understanding that in his book in defense of the WC, David Belin states that LHO would not have had time to shoot, stash the rifle, get down the stairs AND BUT A COKE before Truly and the police officer (Baker?) saw him. Belin did not believe he had a coke in his hand at the time of the encounter but LHO said he did. in "JFK", LHO buys the coke AFTER Truly and Baker leave.

But by Belin's own admission, the timing was incredibly tight--tight enough, I believe, to preclude LHO as a TSDB shooter.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Jim Root]

Tim and Eugene

I believe it was the History channel that did a recreation of both the time/movements from the 6th floor "snipers nest" to the lunch room and the movements from Oswald's change of clothes to the Tippit murder scene. As I recall the 6th floor movement down to the lunch room was "easily" accomplished in the time allowed and the person making the movement in no way looked winded. (As I understand it the "coke in hand" issue is still a disputed piece of information)

The movement and time question surrounding the Tippit murder is a bit murky and allows for speculation about what is or is not the truth. There are conflicting eye witnesses' that have Oswald moveing in different directions on different streets, as I recall, creating two conflicting courses that Oswald may have taken to the movie theater. One course allows him to arrive at the Tippit murder scene in time to commit the crime and one does not.

Perhaps others remember the History Channel recreation and can help us out here.

Eugene, I have been in a situation (once) where shots were fired "toward" me. My first thought (and statement) was that someone had thrown some fireworks from a car passing less that 100 yard away from where I was standing. The person next to me (who had hit the ground) made the comment, "Where do you think you're at?" My point: My mind attempted to rationalize the situation by creating an explanation that was non-threatening to me. The reality was different.

Jim Root