The 2nd-Floor Baker/Oswald Encounter Has Been Debunked

[Michael Griffith]

Umm, I'm not so sure we can reject the Baker-Oswald encounter. The fact that Baker back-peddled on his earlier account that Oswald was holding a Coke when he saw him suggests to me that the encounter occurred. Everyone realized that if Oswald bought the Coke before Baker saw him, this would make it even harder to believe that Oswald had just come from the sixth floor.

Plus, 11/22/63 interrogation notes have Oswald saying that he encountered a police officer while he was getting a Coke in the second-floor lunchroom. 

Another fact that suggests to me that the lunchroom encounter happened is that the WC found it necessary to egregiously rig the reenactment of Oswald's alleged movement from the sixth floor to the second-floor lunchroom. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Roger Odisio]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

 

If LHO was totally uninvolved, there would have been no reason to murder him. IMHO...

 

 

Whoa, Ben.

They had to kill Oswald and fast because they couldn't let him get a lawyer to respond to their clumsy and criminal attempt to frame him.  They certainly couldn't let their non-case go to trial.  IF he knew anything about what they did, they couldn't let him expose that either.

Side note:  Salandria said he watched that first weekend to see if Oswald survived.  If he didn't that would be his first clue as to who did it. 

[Denny Zartman]

49 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Umm, I'm not so sure we can reject the Baker-Oswald encounter. The fact that Baker back-peddled on his earlier account that Oswald was holding a Coke when he saw him suggests to me that the encounter occurred. Everyone realized that if Oswald bought the Coke before Baker saw him, this would make it even harder to believe that Oswald had just come from the sixth floor.

Plus, 11/22/63 interrogation notes have Oswald saying that he encountered a police officer while he was getting a Coke on the second-floor lunchroom. 

Another fact that suggests to me that the lunchroom encounter happened is that the WC found it necessary to egregiously rig the reenactment of Oswald's alleged movement from the sixth floor to the second-floor lunchroom. 

I'm trying to keep an open mind and absorb what others who know more about this are saying when they say the 2nd floor encounter didn't happen, but right now I still tend to agree with this assessment.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Whoa, Ben.

They had to kill Oswald and fast because they couldn't let him get a lawyer to respond to their clumsy and criminal attempt to frame him.  They certainly couldn't let their non-case go to trial.  IF he knew anything about what they did, they couldn't let him expose that either.

Side note:  Salandria said he watched that first weekend to see if Oswald survived.  If he didn't that would be his first clue as to who did it. 

RO--

Of course, I can not prove what I suspect. 

But...murdering LHO so soon post-JFKA suggests to me LHO had vital knowledge that would spell ruin for those connected to the true perps. 

And it also suggest an organization with enough ooomph to put Ruby on the job.  CIA/Mob comes to mind. 

If LHO was totally clueless and innocent, sure, he might wiggle off the hook in terms of a conviction (maybe not---Wade convicted innocent men before). Yes, and once LHO was off the hook, the public would clamor for more investigation. But the FBI was under control, and such an investigation would go nowhere....

Still, it strikes me that LHO's behavior in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, and then the LHO murder---that spells that LHO knew an awful lot about the true perps, and that yes, he had been made into the patsy.

Just IMHO.....

Edited October 21, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

There would be one scenario -- maybe:

LHO informs on either the Cubans training in LA or the Chicago plot or both.

He's found out by the plotters or they are notified and do a 2-for-1 with the planned murder of LHO somewhere then to frame him with the MC rifle.  However, he luckily eludes them, goes back to get his firearm then proceeds to the designated meetup place -- the theatre.

Would explain why he was so unperturbed when arrested as he has a lot of information at his disposal and must be silenced.

Again - it's only a possible scenario.  But I do remember reading that he was at Lake Pontchartrain before one of the raids on the training centers.

Sure, that could be.

But it still lines up---LHO knew enough about the true perps that he had to be rubbed out. And LHO knew almost immediately post-JFKA he was the likely patsy. 

The true perps would still have to have a same-day game plan to make sure LHO was not on the street on 11/22, given that LHO was a photographer, deeply interested in politics and a fan of JFK. 

Some serious researchers have posited LHO genuinely wanted to go the Cuba, and so joined up with CIA-linked anti-Castro types on 11/22 in exchange for promised passage to Cuba. I do not buy that scenario, but it is out there. 

I do think this: Yes, the WC was a post-JFKA show trial, in print. They put the sole and only black hat on LHO, and hid the deeper true story. But that does not necessarily mean LHO wears an entirely clean white hat. 

I happen to think LHO was "innocent" in that he thought he was part of a CIA false flag op, one intended to smear Cuba. They did not plan a successful JFKA. But even my version suggests LHO was willing to deceive the public.  He was an intel soldier. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Odisio]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RO--

Of course, I can not prove what I suspect. 

But...murdering LHO so soon post-JFKA suggests to me LHO had vital knowledge that would spell ruin for those connected to the true perps. 

And it also suggest an organization with enough ooomph to put Ruby on the job.  CIA/Mob comes to mind. 

If LHO was totally clueless and innocent, sure, he might wiggle off the hook in terms of a conviction (maybe not---Wade convicted innocent men before). Yes, and once LHO was off the hook, the public would clamor for more investigation. But the FBI was under control, and such an investigation would go nowhere....

Still, it strikes me that LHO's behavior in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, and then the LHO murder---that spells that LHO knew an awful lot about the true perps, and that yes, he had been made into the patsy.

Just IMHO.....

Oswald was murdered so soon because he began asking for a lawyer right away at the theatre when he was arrested and kept asking after that.  He showed up on camera in the hallway asking for a lawyer and saying these cops haven't let me have one (right before shouting I'm just a patsy).  The head of the Dallas bar visited him on Saturday and offered him a lawyer.  Oswald turned  him down saying he wanted a lawyer who handled communists or someone from the ACLU.  But then he said if he couldn't get one he preferred, he would get back to the guy.

In short the cops knew he was entitled to lawyer and they knew he knew his rights.  The denial of a lawyer was now public information.  He seemed close to getting one.  They couldn't let him do that for the reasons already stated.  Allen Dulles was on the phone from his hideout in Virginia screaming to the cops in Dallas to get rid of this guy before he blows our case up  (Just kidding.  I made that part up.....but its plausible)

This is why Oswald was murdered so quickly.  Oswald having some role in the murder could have been an additional reason if true, but the reasons just outlined were entirely sufficient by themselves. 

[Bob Ness]

Deleted

Edited October 21, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I agree and that was my point. Political extremism, left or right, leads to unacceptable results and usually the victim is the truth. Right wing extremism resulted in an assassination, left wing extremism resulted in a President impeached twice without the commission of a crime, the second time after he left office.

The right removed Kennedy with bullets. The left removed Trump with ballots.

No American citizen has been investigated more than Trump. Why ? Because he's an outsider who has a political base and represents a threat to the career politicians ( aka the "swamp" ) in Washington. They never harassed Ross Perot ( another outsider ) because he didn't have the support and wasn't a threat.

The goal in harrassing Trump is that hopefully they will find something that will prevent him from ever running for President again. That's their goal.

Don't forget, Kennedy wasn't loved by everyone either. Like Trump, half the country didn't vote for him. In 2016, many, like myself, thought Trump's candidacy was a joke and voted for Hillary.

By 2020, I realized that there was an extreme left-wing insanity in our society that caused people to cast aside common sense.

What would our parents say if we told them that we should eliminate police, hate people because of the color of their white skin, that children being entertained by drag queens is ok and that they can choose their own sex, that parents have no choice in what their children are taught or that men can get pregnant just because we say so ? 

Anti-white hatred is spewed nightly on the major cable news networks. Watch MSNBC. White people are evil and the cause of all the nation's problems. What happened to Dr. King's dream of judging people by the content of their character ? He and the Kennedys gave their lives in the 1960's for a better America. Is this what we've digressed to ? Anti-white racism ?

A country where some people's "truth" and "reality" are make-believe ?

We inject ourselves and our children with experimental drugs, the first "vaccines" that neither protect you from contracting a virus nor spreading it and the long term effect of which we do not know.

We think that our own oil pollutes the planet but Saudi and Venezuelan oil doesn't, so we cut our production and buy it from them.

We consider taking money ( through taxes ) from people who were never slave owners and give it to people who were never slaves, calling it "reparations" for something someone else did 200 years before we were born.

We shut down domestic energy and leave our borders wide open, creating a much higher demand for the very energy we are eliminating.

Where has common sense gone ?

This foolishness began with the Warren Commission and we need to right this ship before it sinks into the ocean. There is only one truth, my friends, and the lies need to be exposed before they become accepted truth.

Gil, thanks.  Good summation.

IMO, you're on the mark.

About | Media Research Center (mrc.org)

And:

Dem ‘talking points’ and parroting media minions raise eyebrows (bizpacreview.com)

I'm sure the websites will be criticized, but one only has had to have watched, read, and listened, especially over the past 20 years, to understand there has occurred a significant change in political ideology in the country.  One can discuss if it's been for o better or worse.

Anyway, at some point subsequent to the 11/22/63, for those who began to doubt the WC and began their research, the question of MSM complicity in covering up the government's "Lone Nut Did it" official position seemed likely.  History, IMHO, has proven them correct.  

Where were the legions of journalists/reporters then - investigating - when obvious doubts were raised by early researchers?  Where are they now - some sixty years later?  Imagine the multiple Pulitzer Prizes, accolades, publicity, book deals within its grasp - just summarily ignored.

I respect your and others takes here and was not (and maybe still is) the hypothesis that in the early '60s the MSM was covering for a right-wing intelligence/military/industrial complex and therefore complicit in the coverup?  

Since then, I would totally agree that over the decades, there has been a more apparent MSM swing in ideology - quite leftward, in comparison.

I guess my question is, why has not today's MSM not loosed legions of reporters/journalists and millions of dollars, tracking down the truth of the JFK assassination.

One can only imagine the explosive, block-buster story - finally divulged after nearly 60 years.

Is the MSM really thinking, "Nah, old news; nobody's interested anymore."

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Griffith]

18 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm trying to keep an open mind and absorb what others who know more about this are saying when they say the 2nd floor encounter didn't happen, but right now I still tend to agree with this assessment.

I think it's fairly clear from the record that the Baker-Oswald encounter occurred. As I've documented in two articles, the encounter is actually strong evidence that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during shooting.

The encounter created all sorts of problems for the Warren Commission. Baker had to retract his initial claim that Oswald was holding a Coke when he approached him in the lunchroom. And, the WC had to brazenly rig their reenactment of Oswald's alleged journey from the sniper's nest to the second-floor lunchroom. 

Also, Baker's insistence regarding the speed of his movement to the TSBD created an impossible time frame for the WC to get Oswald to the lunchroom soon enough to be seen by Baker from the second-floor landing, which is why they had to so markedly rig the sixth-floor-to-second-floor reenactment.

It would have been so much easier to have simply denied that the encounter occurred, but they couldn't do that.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Gil, thanks.  Good summation.

IMO, you're on the mark.

I guess my question is, why has not today's MSM not loosed legions of reporters/journalists and millions of dollars, tracking down the truth of the JFK assassination.

One can only imagine the explosive, block-buster story - finally divulged after nearly 60 years.

Is the MSM really thinking, "Nah, old news; nobody's interested anymore."

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Ron. I suppose I see more similarities between the hatred for Trump and the hatred for JFK than most researchers. To me, there's no difference except that the haters sit on the other side of the aisle.

As an Independent, I don't have a loyalty to either party. I call 'em as I see 'em. 

While the press back in the 60's were not so rabidly political as they are today, they were certainly not pro-JFK. As you may remember, it was E.M. Dealey, publisher of the Dallas Morning News, who called JFK a coward to his face.

Back then, Kennedy's administration was accused of managing the news by withholding information from them and they didn't like that.

In fact, in one press conference he was asked about it. You can tell he was stunned by the question but his comeback was classic JFK.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/managed-news.mp4

On the Huntley-Brinkley Report that evening, Chet Huntley made IMO one of the greatest  commentaries in network television history when he scolded America for Kennedy's assassination.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/yt5s.com-HUNTLEY_-Hatred-killed-JFK360p.mp4

IMO, the Russians came the closest to getting it right.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/yt5s.com-Soviet-Reaction-to-the-Assassination-of-JFK360p.mp4

People want to know who killed John Kennedy--- America killed John Kennedy. He was killed by his enemies and the security apparatus designed to protect him allowed it to happen.

They knew in advance it was coming and did NOTHING to protect him. Then covered up their shame by blaming it on a guy who hadn't fired a rifle in 4 years. Then publishing a Report full of lies figuring no one would ever read the 26 volumes and see how they lied.

But they could not have known that we'd have the technology today to do just that: to expose their lies and their coverup. 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[John Deignan]

A question back on topic-once Truly showed Baker where the stairs were, why did Truly go up the stairs ahead of Baker? Baker has his gun drawn going up the stairs expecting to possibly run into the shooter. Was he going to shoot through Truly?

[Tony Krome]

2 minutes ago, John Deignan said:

A question back on topic-once Truly showed Baker where the stairs were, why did Truly go up the stairs ahead of Baker? Baker has his gun drawn going up the stairs expecting to possibly run into the shooter. Was he going to shoot through Truly?

Yes, if Baker expected to run into a gun-toting escapee descending the building, its certainly perilous for the unarmed civilian ahead of him in such a tight staircase. If they met on the stairs, I don't see how Truly could avoid crossfire.

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, John Deignan said:

A question back on topic-once Truly showed Baker where the stairs were, why did Truly go up the stairs ahead of Baker? Baker has his gun drawn going up the stairs expecting to possibly run into the shooter. Was he going to shoot through Truly?

Good point. What if he tripped and the gun went off ?

[Benjamin Cole]

11 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Not at all. They lie all the time. But who was the government in this case? Trump was the government as much as those investigating him. Mueller says in the report that the fact that Trump and his minions lied so much to investigators impeded the investigation.

AP--

 

I dunno.

You realize that it was Mueller who was the FBI chief who all but shut down the investigation into 9/11? 

For me, the Mueller investigation, the 1/6 committee, the 9/11 commission  and the WC have common denominators:

1. Only the prosecution presented evidence, and that evidence was unchallenged. 

2. Only the prosecution presented witnesses, hand chosen and curated for effect. Those witnesses were unchallenged. 

3. The narrative, the unfolding story, was controlled by prosecutors. 

4. The media, which is mostly compliant anyway, is largely left to report on the witnesses and evidence presented, on daily deadlines. 

5. There is no judge to even try to make the process or formats impartial or fair.  

6. Many appeals are made to emotions, or patriotism, which generally play well in the media.

It took me a long time to realize this about the WC, and all government investigations: They have carte blanche to present the story they want to present---it is much, much better than actually trying to prosecute a target in a court of law.  

The WC was essentially a prosecutorial wet dream, an ex post facto show trial. Ditto with other public government investigations, such as the 1/6 or 9/11 shows. 

BTW, I am happy for Trump, or anyone else, to be fairly prosecuted in a court of law (as LHO deserved) with robust defense, and let the chips fall where they may. 

A government investigating itself in today's hyper-partisan and anti-populist environment?  I have reservations. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Back on Baker, he admitted to the WC that he was not following good police procedures in following Truly up the stairs. 

I contend in this case we are talking about humans with human flaws, in the chaotic moments after the JFKA. Truly knew his way around the TSBD and would show Baker the way to the upper floors where it was suspected, with good reason, that shots were fired. So, in a rush, they went up the stairs. 

Baker, Truly and LHO all gave same-day statements about their meeting inside the TSBD.  Even earnest witness accounts can vary. 

I contend the number of witting pre-JFKA participants had to be small, perhaps only a handful. Surely, anyone planning a presidential assassination would strictly limit the numbers of people in the know, and even more so the numbers of people propositioned to participate. 

I mean, proposition the wrong guy, and he might spill the beans. 

I conjecture most witting participants or even knowledgeable people were dead within years, starting with LHO. Ruby died quickly. Eladio Del Vale and Hermininio Diaz. David Ferrie. John Roselli. 

Thus, in my view, people like Truly might have been pressured or coached after the fact, surely by the time they reached the WC, to say the right things, and they complied as they did not want to cross authority,  or be seen as siding up with LHO, a commie who shot the President. 

But Truly's same-day statement? I think it is an earnest statement. 

Was Truly in on the JFKA? I contend, no. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Benjamin Cole