The 2nd-Floor Baker/Oswald Encounter Has Been Debunked

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes. The FBI (Burnett) did precisely that.

From a 2007 discussion:

"By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President Kennedy's assassination. Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of incorrect "merging", thought that Baker did see LHO with a Coke, and wrote it down as such (and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange, indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole damn thing himself if he was right there)." -- DVP; May 5, 2007

-----------------------------------------------------------

"Hi David, Good point. If Baker was there, why didn't *he* write out the statement? Without a doubt, the document is in the FBI agent's handwriting. .... The agent imo included the Coke not because Baker said it, but because it was "established myth" by 9/64 and the agent included it as part of the narrative. He probably didn't give it a second thought and neither did Baker when he crossed it out. It wasn't important to them. I'm speculating, sure. But is it more plausible that the coverup crew wanted to hide the Coke story and yet left this document in the record?" -- Jean Davison; January 10, 2010

"incorrect merging" Noted!

[David Von Pein]

15 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

"incorrect merging" Noted!

Ten-Four. Glad I could help you out.  <--- Reciprocal sarcasm.

Edited October 23, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:02 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Your suspicions about the possibility of documents being altered, or even disappearing, are justified, IMHO. 

In this WC investigation, or other government investigations. 

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:01 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

When the WC/FBI fabricated the 2nd-floor encounter, they simply altered the 3rd/4th floor one (that you linked to above) to fit their desired narrative.

 

Amen. The man Baker encounted on the upper floors did not match Oswald's description. Baker said he was wearing a tan coat. He was one of the gunmen and Truly vouched for him. According to William Manchester, Truly "violently disapproved of the Kennedy presidency" ( p.447 ) He turned the cops on to Oswald. The "gunsack" that the police manufactured on the afternoon of the assassination was made with paper and tape that was in his shipping room. 

The framing of Oswald begins with Roy Truly. He was in this up to his neck.

[Bill Brown]

13 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Several early news accounts said that when Baker saw Oswald in the lunchroom, Oswald was holding a Coke in his hand. Where did those news accounts get that information, if not from DPD sources?

In the first statement that Baker wrote directly by himself without the filter of a third party, he initially wrote that Oswald was drinking a Coke when he saw him. Granted, Baker wrote this statement on 9/23/64, but it was the first statement that he himself gave directly. Then, Baker lined out the part about the Coke. 

During a radio program on December 23, 1966, Albert Jenner, a former senior WC counsel, said that when Baker saw Oswald in the lunchroom, Oswald was holding a Coke in his hand. Said Jenner, "the first man this policeman saw, was Oswald with a bottle of Coke" (Sylvia Meager, Accessories After the Fact: The Warren Commission, the Authorities, and the Report, New York: Bobbs-Merrill, 1967; Vintage Press, 1976., p. 226). My, my, how interesting.

Anyway, the larger point is that the Baker-Oswald encounter was very problematic for the WC. The plotters surely wished it had never occurred, and surely wished they could have suppressed it before it became known and documented. 

 

 

In the first statement that Baker wrote directly by himself without the filter of a third party, he initially wrote that Oswald was drinking a Coke when he saw him. Granted, Baker wrote this statement on 9/23/64, but it was the first statement that he himself gave directly. Then, Baker lined out the part about the Coke. 

 

No.

 

Baker did not write that statement.  However, before signing it, he made the necessary corrections (crossing out the reference to the Coke).

 

In other words, the statement was written by Burnett and before signing it, Baker made whatever necessary corrections that needed to be made.

 

Hell, David Von Pein did a damn good write up on this, if you'd just go read it.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Andrew Prutsok]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:16 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

AP--

 

I dunno.

You realize that it was Mueller who was the FBI chief who all but shut down the investigation into 9/11? 

For me, the Mueller investigation, the 1/6 committee, the 9/11 commission  and the WC have common denominators:

1. Only the prosecution presented evidence, and that evidence was unchallenged. 

2. Only the prosecution presented witnesses, hand chosen and curated for effect. Those witnesses were unchallenged. 

3. The narrative, the unfolding story, was controlled by prosecutors. 

4. The media, which is mostly compliant anyway, is largely left to report on the witnesses and evidence presented, on daily deadlines. 

5. There is no judge to even try to make the process or formats impartial or fair.  

6. Many appeals are made to emotions, or patriotism, which generally play well in the media.

It took me a long time to realize this about the WC, and all government investigations: They have carte blanche to present the story they want to present---it is much, much better than actually trying to prosecute a target in a court of law.  

The WC was essentially a prosecutorial wet dream, an ex post facto show trial. Ditto with other public government investigations, such as the 1/6 or 9/11 shows. 

BTW, I am happy for Trump, or anyone else, to be fairly prosecuted in a court of law (as LHO deserved) with robust defense, and let the chips fall where they may. 

A government investigating itself in today's hyper-partisan and anti-populist environment?  I have reservations. 

 

Granted all of that but the Trump's refused to cooperate and told lies about everything. Seems he was left with no choice but to make a one sided presentment.

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Well done, Gil.

Thanks for posting. 

[Ron Ege]

3 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Amen. The man Baker encounted on the upper floors did not match Oswald's description. Baker said he was wearing a tan coat. He was one of the gunmen and Truly vouched for him. According to William Manchester, Truly "violently disapproved of the Kennedy presidency" ( p.447 ) He turned the cops on to Oswald. The "gunsack" that the police manufactured on the afternoon of the assassination was made with paper and tape that was in his shipping room. 

The framing of Oswald begins with Roy Truly. He was in this up to his neck.

Gil, thanks.

'Tis difficult for me to get around this:

I believe that a person's earliest description of a scene/incident to be more valid, than later recalls.

From Officer Marion Baker's first day, handwritten Affidavit in Fact:

" . . . . The man I saw was a white man appeared 30 years old 5 - 9 - 165 dk hair and wearing a lt brown jacket . . . ."

Baker being unfamiliar with the building, thinking he was on the 3rd or 4th floor, I do get it.

However, as a trained police officer, I do not buy that he could get LHO's weight description that wrong - by what, some 30 pounds?

And then the "jacket".  Even with a shirt being worn outside the trousers, I do not believe that it would appear to be a jacket (and no proof Oswald owned such a jacket).

Baker looks at the person, very close-up (3-4 feet away), while questioning Truly, yet still describes the guy's outerwear as a jacket?

First of all, Oswald's work shirt that day, to me, appears more of a medium brown.  I do realize that is subjective - but 

How many jackets sport an Ivy League type, button down collar?  

And how about those fairly miniscule - for a jacket anyway - obvious, eight white buttons - 2 on the collar and six down the shirt's center, contrasted against the dark shirt fabric?  Not very noticeable?

According to Baker, he confronted the man and asked Truly if the guy belonged there.  That scene is much more than a "fleeting glimpse".

I can't buy it.

 

[Mark Knight]

At this point, you may have noticed that several posts on this thread have been hidden. The ones that were hidden were the ones that had overtly political statements which led to several ad hominem attacks. Our administrators decided to hide these posts because we prefer to wield a scalpel than a sledgehammer when it comes to keeping threads on-topic. Off-topic posts that are attempts at humor are generally viewed differently than off-topic posts that divert the thread and cause breaches of forum decorum. 

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[John Cotter]

10 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Great work Gil.

That short video alone proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that there was a conspiracy and that there was a cover-up.

Why are the lone-nut theorists ignoring this?

Edited October 23, 2022 by John Cotter

[Denny Zartman]

I can't seem to find the recent thread where there was a discussion about the elevator shaft being used as an escape route.

It seems in one of Charles Givens' statements, Givens' says he was descending in an elevator and saw Oswald on the fifth floor. I guess I had never pictured the elevator (or both elevators?) in the TSBD to be the type where floor occupants and elevator occupants were visible to each other during descent.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=335

Anyway, wouldn't this fact make using the elevator shaft as a covert escape route basically pointless?

[Benjamin Cole]

14 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Excellent work by Gil Jesus (and of course Mark Lane). 

I may disagree with Gil Jesus on this or that---honest people can disagree---but I will always recognize GJ as a talented,  earnest and serious JFKA researcher and observer of government.

[John Cotter]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:10 AM, David Von Pein said:

Ten-Four. Glad I could help you out.  <--- Reciprocal sarcasm.

David,

This short video by EF member Gil Jesus proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that there was a JFKA conspiracy and that there was an official cover-up of the conspiracy.

Since I understand you’re a proponent of the “lone nut” theory, how can you justify that position in light of this video?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28242-the-2nd-floor-bakeroswald-encounter-has-been-debunked/?do=findComment&comment=475708

[Gil Jesus]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Excellent work by Gil Jesus (and of course Mark Lane). 

I may disagree with Gil Jesus on this or that---honest people can disagree---but I will always recognize GJ as a talented,  earnest and serious JFKA researcher and observer of government.

Thank you and you know that I always hold your opinion in the highest regard whether we agree or not. That's what civil discourse is all about.

[Gil Jesus]

12 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Great work Gil.

That short video alone proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that there was a conspiracy and that there was a cover-up.

Why are the lone-nut theorists ignoring this?

Thank you. Here's a good article on why people believe lies. You'll recognized some of the traits as those of "lone nutters" ( # 5 especially is one I've cited in the past ).

https://goodfaithmedia.org/why-do-good-people-believe-lies/

Edited October 24, 2022 by Gil Jesus