What If the Final Docs Proved CIA Involvement in JFKA?

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Trying a hypothetical because I don’t believe I’ve seen it brought up previously:

What would happen if Biden releases all the remaining documents and there is clear, incontrovertible evidence the CIA was involved?

I don’t think it’s an idle question. The CIA is paranoid about something in those final docs being revealed. Also, Jeff Morley is making the case now that he believes LHO was used in an agency psyops starting in June 1963 based on existing docs and new ‘living witnesses’ (he says he will reveal more at another time: https://jfkfacts.substack.com/p/yes-there-is-a-jfk-smoking-gun)

Of course, for Americans to care all the planets would have to align. Mostly the majority of the MSM would have to acknowledge the damning evidence and not do its usual shuck and jive when it comes to JFKA.

But if MSM did support the contention the CIA was involved, what would happen next? Or what should happen next?

The WH and Congress would be under tremendous pressure to respond I think, especially if American global prestige was starting to badly falter.

If the govt was forced to accept the majority media opinion, what could they do? Would they hold yet another investigation this time to show how it all truly went down and to avoid any similar occurrence in the future? Would they need to publicly apologize to the Kennedy family? Would the USG commit to working to create the world JFK had envisioned?

In these politically polarized times, JFK is the exception and seems to be universally appreciated and respected. Would the true facts of his death bring Americans together in a way not seen since WWII? Would there be an American Renaissance and re-commitment to our core values?

Or would no one really care at all and just treat it like a nice new historical fact to know but nothing earth shattering? 

Curious on anyone’s thoughts.
 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Michaleen Kilroy

[James DiEugenio]

Mike:

On the one hand, I think its a possibility since there are many big names in those last documents like Morales, Johanides etc.

But on the other hand, I would have thought the CIA would have incinerated anything like that long ago.

In fact, Lesar said something like that to me a long time ago.  He said some general told him that after the ARRB term expired that is what they did.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Michaleen Kilroy]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mike:

On the one had, I think its a possibility since there are many big names in those last documents like Morales, Johanides etc.

But on the other hand, I would have thought the CIA would have incinerated anything like that long ago.

In fact, Lesar said something like that to me along time ago.  he said some general told him that after the ARRB term expired that is what they did.

 

Thanks, Jim.

Yeah I think there could be something impactful in the remaining docs but nothing that would likely be enough to change MSM’s tune.

Lesar’s point is well taken, and sobering. 
 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Fascinating question.

Hard to read, on this one. 

Sad to say, but every event today is not an event, but rather a wheel to be spun for political advantage. 

So proof of CIA or intel involvement in the JFKA....well, the red kool-aid drinkers would say it proves this, and the blue kool-aid drinkers would say it proves that. 

Maybe some (a very few) serious historians and others would re-examine postwar US history and ask who was really running the show. Perhaps a "shadow-state slate" in academic would emerge.

I can't imagine the Council for Foreign Relations-types would change one bit. 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[John Kennedy White]

I've felt for a while that the only remaining docs relating to the CIA would show their MO with black ops/wet work taking out heads of state in other countries in the name of "deMOcrACY" as anything making them culpable in the JFKA would have been burned three times.

[Roger Odisio]

19 minutes ago, John Kennedy White said:

I've felt for a while that the only remaining docs relating to the CIA would show their MO with black ops/wet work taking out heads of state in other countries in the name of "deMOcrACY" as anything making them culpable in the JFKA would have been burned three times.

Considering the structure of fabrications, changed testimony, disappearing evidence, ignored evidence, and lies that was built to frame Oswald, it's hard to fathom that, by now, anything the least bit incriminating remains in the CIA and FBI files.

IMO, it must first be proven that Oswald *didn't* do it, *and* that proof must be widely disseminated, getting past the media gatekeepers, before there can be enough support for an investigation of what really happened.  If Oswald didn't do it the Warren Report collapses.  Given the enormity of the crime and destructiveness that has resulted since, something must replace it.

I remain optimistic about the first part.  Evidence exonerating Oswald is piling up.  But getting the word out has always proved daunting.  An optimist would point to the plummeting faith people have in what they are being told by the government and the media.  The Warren Report, signed by the 7 great Americans, and "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq are stitched from the same fabric.

Maybe the time is becoming ripe for the truth about the murder, and the social destruction in its aftermath, to get a hearing.  

 

[John Kennedy White]

1 minute ago, Roger Odisio said:

Considering the structure of fabrications, changed testimony, disappearing evidence, ignored evidence, and lies that was built to frame Oswald, it's hard to fathom that, by now, anything the least bit incriminating remains in the CIA and FBI files.

IMO, it must first be proven that Oswald *didn't* do it, *and* that proof must be widely disseminated, getting past the media gatekeepers, before there can be enough support for an investigation of what really happened.  If Oswald didn't do it the Warren Report collapses.  Given the enormity of the crime and destructiveness that has resulted since, something must replace it.

I remain optimistic about the first part.  Evidence exonerating Oswald is piling up.  But getting the word out has always proved daunting.  An optimist would point to the plummeting faith people have in what they are being told by the government and the media.  The Warren Report, signed by the 7 great Americans, and "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq are stitched from the same fabric.

Maybe the time is becoming ripe for the truth about the murder, and the social destruction in its aftermath, to get a hearing.  

 

I add my optimism to yours

[Benjamin Cole]

14 hours ago, John Kennedy White said:

I add my optimism to yours

My only quibble is...the need to "exonerate" LHO. 

There is plenty to suggest LHO was a CIA asset, inside the TSBD, and the JFKA was a CIA hit in part from the TSBD, and that LHO is nowhere to be seen when shots rang out. 

It is possible (I think likely) LHO was a witting or unwitting participant in the JFKA.

LHO going home and getting a gun and hiding in a theater do not suggest un-involvement in the JFKA.

Just IMHO....

 

[Joseph McBride]

Oswald didn't own the revolver placed

into the "so-called evidence." So it 

was a plant.

[Kirk Gallaway]

I wouldn't get too much into how it would happen. But I think you're right. I'm not aware of the legalities, but there'd be a consensus to a prosecution. establish the facts. Maybe a government apology. On the positive  side, It may end up establishing some greater standard of watch guarding and accountability, in the future. But ultimately no countries are going to give up their intelligence so I wouldn't expect massive cuts in spending.. 

 

On 11/27/2022 at 8:27 PM, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Would the true facts of his death bring Americans together in a way not seen since WWII? Would there be an American Renaissance and re-commitment to our core values?

Or would no one really care at all and just treat it like a nice new historical fact to know but nothing earth shattering? 

That's hard to say, but I think it means a lot, particularly to people living in that era.   So  that would depend on the capacity of  the elders who have gone through it to have conveyed that to their children, family, relatives.   This idea sort of evoking a  new sense of national unity, since I'm a bit out of touch, I have no idea of the capacity to evoke anything lasting, but I do see people who want something to believe in.  

But I do think a lot of people  are in your second category, they won't particularly care. I don't think it's going to be earth shattering at any rate, but there could be period of reflection.   But in a slow news year,  it could be, maybe the American Story of the Year.

Just my guess,

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Oswald didn't own the revolver placed

into the "so-called evidence." So it 

was a plant.

JM-

Well...obviously, anyone who questions the evidence in the JFKA is on solid footing. I cannot say you are wrong, and you are expert on the topic. 

Just IMHO....

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying. 

LHO in interrogation said he went home to get his gun as "that is what boys do." Again, there is no recording of that, and as you know, transcripts of LHO's interrogations are sketchy. So, it could be a false transcript. 

Where I respectfully depart from you...well, is on the size of the pre-event and immediate post-event JFKA conspiracy. 

I am biased. If I were planning such a risky endeavor (I abhor violence and never would, btw) I would only trust close confederates, men I had soldiered with for years, or were heavily vouched for, and in very small numbers, as in less than you can count on one hand missing fingers. 

After the JFKA, there was a lot of complicity, falling into line, fear of being clumped in with communists or LHO, and looking askance as evidence was enhanced to meet the narrative (a narrative most believed was true). 

But..for me, explanations of the JFKA that require witting pre-event or immediate post-event involvement of many people across many agencies, federal and local...are not compelling. 

The DPD officers said when they arrested LHO he was armed. Signed affidavits. Maybe it was all a lie. 

 

 

 

[Paul Cummings]

38 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JM-

Well...obviously, anyone who questions the evidence in the JFKA is on solid footing. I cannot say you are wrong, and you are expert on the topic. 

Just IMHO....

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying. 

LHO in interrogation said he went home to get his gun as "that is what boys do." Again, there is no recording of that, and as you know, transcripts of LHO's interrogations are sketchy. So, it could be a false transcript. 

Where I respectfully depart from you...well, is on the size of the pre-event and immediate post-event JFKA conspiracy. 

I am biased. If I were planning such a risky endeavor (I abhor violence and never would, btw) I would only trust close confederates, men I had soldiered with for years, or were heavily vouched for, and in very small numbers, as in less than you can count on one hand missing fingers. 

After the JFKA, there was a lot of complicity, falling into line, fear of being clumped in with communists or LHO, and looking askance as evidence was enhanced to meet the narrative (a narrative most believed was true). 

But..for me, explanations of the JFKA that require witting pre-event or immediate post-event involvement of many people across many agencies, federal and local...are not compelling. 

The DPD officers said when they arrested LHO he was armed. Signed affidavits. Maybe it was all a lie. 

 

 

 

You mean the list of witnesses at the TT that the DPD lost? I suspect Helms left very little evidence in the remaining files but documents will help with pieces of the puzzle.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Tom Gram]

11 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JM-

Well...obviously, anyone who questions the evidence in the JFKA is on solid footing. I cannot say you are wrong, and you are expert on the topic. 

Just IMHO....

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying. 

LHO in interrogation said he went home to get his gun as "that is what boys do." Again, there is no recording of that, and as you know, transcripts of LHO's interrogations are sketchy. So, it could be a false transcript. 

Where I respectfully depart from you...well, is on the size of the pre-event and immediate post-event JFKA conspiracy. 

I am biased. If I were planning such a risky endeavor (I abhor violence and never would, btw) I would only trust close confederates, men I had soldiered with for years, or were heavily vouched for, and in very small numbers, as in less than you can count on one hand missing fingers. 

After the JFKA, there was a lot of complicity, falling into line, fear of being clumped in with communists or LHO, and looking askance as evidence was enhanced to meet the narrative (a narrative most believed was true). 

But..for me, explanations of the JFKA that require witting pre-event or immediate post-event involvement of many people across many agencies, federal and local...are not compelling. 

The DPD officers said when they arrested LHO he was armed. Signed affidavits. Maybe it was all a lie. 

 

 

 

I thought it was ridiculous too, mostly based on Oswald’s interrogations, but there’s a surprising amount of evidence suggesting that the revolver might have been planted and/or swapped in evidence before the gun was turned over to Lt. Baker in homicide. I still lean towards Oswald having the gun on him, but it’s a lot more ambiguous than I thought before looking into it. 

IF there was anything shady going on with the revolver, Paul Bentley is a prime suspect. He told the press on Saturday that he was involved in the initial scuffle with McDonald and that HE was the one who stuck his hand in the hammer to stop the gun from firing - the story that was later adopted by McDonald. Bentley even said he got a bruised hand from it. Bentley allegedly went directly from the Tippit scene to the balcony of the Texas Theater to Oswald in time to intercept McDonald, and of course he was never deposed by the WC. 

Bentley also wrote in his report that he initialed the gun, but the official chain of custody says that Bentley never handled it. The DPD records also reflect a massive hole in the revolver chain of custody, with more cops involved in entering the gun into evidence than McDonald, Carroll, Hill, Baker, and even Bentley. There’s enough evidence on this to state conclusively that we didn’t get the full story on the revolver chain of custody from the WR. I got NARA to formally agree to take new catalog photos of CE143 that show all the initials on the gun for this reason - but it’s been six months or so and still no photos. Amazingly, the only visible initials in the current photos are Paul Bentley’s, who according to the WC never touched the gun. 

When you toss this kind of stuff - and there’s more - in with the statements of George Applin and Gus Rose telling Larry Sneed that Oswald claimed the gun was planted on him, I think it raises some legitimate questions. There’s no way to prove that the revolver was planted, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be a little skeptical of the official story on this one. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

I thought it was ridiculous too, mostly based on Oswald’s interrogations, but there’s a surprising amount of evidence suggesting that the revolver might have been planted and/or swapped in evidence before the gun was turned over to Lt. Baker in homicide. I still lean towards Oswald having the gun on him, but it’s a lot more ambiguous than I thought before looking into it. 

IF there was anything shady going on with the revolver, Paul Bentley is a prime suspect. He told the press on Saturday that he was involved in the initial scuffle with McDonald and that HE was the one who stuck his hand in the hammer to stop the gun from firing - the story that was later adopted by McDonald. Bentley even said he got a bruised hand from it. Bentley allegedly went directly from the Tippit scene to the balcony of the Texas Theater to Oswald in time to intercept McDonald, and of course he was never deposed by the WC. 

Bentley also wrote in his report that he initialed the gun, but the official chain of custody says that Bentley never handled it. The DPD records also reflect a massive hole in the revolver chain of custody, with more cops involved in entering the gun into evidence than McDonald, Carroll, Hill, Baker, and even Bentley. There’s enough evidence on this to state conclusively that we didn’t get the full story on the revolver chain of custody from the WR. I got NARA to formally agree to take new catalog photos of CE143 that show all the initials on the gun for this reason - but it’s been six months or so and still no photos. Amazingly, the only visible initials in the current photos are Paul Bentley’s, who according to the WC never touched the gun. 

When you toss this kind of stuff - and there’s more - in with the statements of George Applin and Gus Rose telling Larry Sneed that Oswald claimed the gun was planted on him, I think it raises some legitimate questions. There’s no way to prove that the revolver was planted, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be a little skeptical of the official story on this one. 

TG-

You certainly raise a lot of good points. 

But with each one of these stories, we tend to add to the number of people who were witting participants in the JFKA or the immediate aftermaths.

So....Roy Truly lied about meeting LHO in the second-floor lunch room (Baker too?), and numerous officers in the DPD lied about everything and phonied up the backyard photos, and the Secret Service gimmicked the parade route (along with the Mayor of Dallas) and while LHO (though a loyal CIA asset) was totally innocent and made a patsy, and a CIA ops team about eight got in and around Dealey Plaza and did JFK in. 

FBI agents then phonied up paper records on the guns, and much else, while CIA personnel made out of whole cloth LHO's trip to Mexico City. I think I just scratched the surface here. Some people even say the taxi driver who gave LHO a ride post-JFKA was lying.

A cast of dozens...or do we reach triple digits? 

Not one of these people ever "came clean" in subsequent years. 

Maybe. 

IMHO...my best guess remains the JFKA confederates were three in number, CIA-linked, and included LHO, likely as an unwitting patsy. 

LHO, reasonably scared at what had just happened, and possibly fearing immediate assassination of himself, went home and got a gun. Whether he was just hiding in the Texas Theater, or meeting someone...don't know. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying.

Ben,

Oswald didn't try to draw his pistol. McDonald tried to snatch it put of his belt and Oswald tried to prevent him.

Oswald's hands were up. McDonald didn't tell Oswald to freeze. He didn't yell out to his fellow officers warning them that there was a gun. He just immediately made a snatch for it.

Report by Patrolman M. N. McDonald to Chief of Police J. E. Curry, December 4, 1963

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339292/m1/1/?q=L.M.%20McDonald

WC testimony of M.N. McDonald

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/mcdonald.htm

"And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."
As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose."

Steve Thomas