The Two "Oswalds"

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Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
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[Guest]

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Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
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[Guest]

Also note, he had already his passport issued to him on Sept. 10, 1959 in Los Angeles (the day before all the other papers).     

So Sept.11 wasn't unusual for all the paperwork, it was just "his last day at the job"

On the 14th he was in Fort Worth, getting the Selective Service System (appl. and card).  

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
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[Guest]

Here's an article on Lt. AYERS and the doc's.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48718#relPageId=3

Odd is the "To Whom It May Concern Memo"

On the other documents, I think there's enough other paperwork on his discharge to confirm the dates, etc.

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

For me, the DD Form 1173, purported to be "Oswald's military ID card" is problematic.

That form is issued by the DOD to military dependents, civilian employees, contractors, and other authorized persons for the purpose of identification, facilities admission, benefits eligibility, and so on.  Oswald was none of these.

 

Ron,

Gary Powers was carrying a military ID card for dependents when he was shot down in his U2 spy plane over Russia. He was working for the CIA at the time.

Forum member Chris Newton showed years ago that neither Powers' ID card nor Oswald's was made following strict military guidelines. Chris was certain, therefore, that neither of these cards was issued by the DOD.

It seems likely therefore that the CIA had (has?) an agreement with the DOD allowing them to issue these  cards to CIA employees who need access to military bases.

Oswald got this card because he was an employee of the CIA.

 

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Here's an article on Lt. AYERS and the doc's.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48718#relPageId=3

Odd is the "To Whom It May Concern Memo"

On the other documents, I think there's enough other paperwork on his discharge to confirm the dates, etc.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ron,

Gary Powers was carrying a military ID card for dependents when he was shot down in his U2 spy plane over Russia. He was working for the CIA at the time.

Forum member Chris Newton showed years ago that neither Powers' ID card nor Oswald's was made following strict military guidelines. Chris was certain, therefore, that neither of these cards was issued by the DOD.

It seems likely therefore that the CIA had (has?) an agreement with the DOD allowing them to issue these  cards to CIA employees who need access to military bases.

Oswald got this card because he was an employee of the CIA.

 

Paul and Sandy, thank you.

Paul - for all the additional Oswald's discharge paperwork and sundry information.

Sandy - for your comments about Oswald and Powers being employees of the CIA. 

Powers - I was aware, and, therefore, yes, it follows he would've been issued the DD Form 1173.  Point taken.   

Oswald - By your statement, I gather evidence has arisen that confirms, beyond all doubt, that he was a CIA employee.  I've always believed that everything, for just about forever now, points to him being an ONI and/or CIA low level operative.

Anyway, if I am following you correctly, you are saying that Oswald's DD Form 1173 "DOD ID Card" (for which there may have been a "handshake agreement" between the DOD and CIA allowing the agency to issue one to any of its employees), dated 09/11/59, the same date as all of Oswald's discharge paperwork, and prepared/signed by the same person (A. G. Ayres, 1st Lt, USMC) was issued to Oswald that day because he already WAS or was ABOUT TO BECOME imminently, a bona fide CIA employee and would need the DD Form 1173 for personal identification, facilities access, etc. 

As much as Oswald's entire history of behavior/actions in the military and after bespeaks of "being undercover", as well as the CIA always denying that he was one of theirs - well, as the late FSU Head Football Coach, Bobby Bowden would've said, "I'm bumfuzzled."  Nothing new, for me.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

56 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Oswald - By your statement, I gather evidence has arisen that confirms, beyond all doubt, that he was a CIA employee.

 

Ron,

It is impossible to confirm, beyond all doubt, that Oswald was a CIA operative. But there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence indicating that he was. Even tiny things, like what we just talked about, points in that direction.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a proven fact. And there's no need to waste anymore time debating it.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Jim, thank you for the refresher.

I do have a question, in your provided link, near the end, there is this:

" . . . On September 11 HARVEY Oswald was given a Department of Defense photo ID card. . ."

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, if for nothing more that the "OF SPONSOR" being amateurishly blacked out on block 10, I believe that the card is problematic.

Are you able to further refresh my memory and share the hypothesis as to who/what entity may have made up the card and also as stated in the link - the reason - that it "was given" to Oswald? 

Ron,

This is hardly a new theory, but the clearest hint about the origin of the 1959 DOD ID card may be the fact that Richard Case Nagell was carrying a nearly identical copy of it (with a different photo and signature) at the time of his arrest two months before the assassination of JFK.  

The alleged DOD ID card:

Nagell’s copy:

However weird Nagell may have been, his intel connections (Army Intelligence and CIA) seem pretty undeniable.  He MAY have modified the original modified card himself for reasons unknown, but it seems more likely to me that the card had several different versions that were circulating (created?) by American Intel.

Sandy Larsen did work some time back showing more evidence that the photo on the card was a composite of two different people.  And I couldn’t agree with Sandy more that the overwhelming evidence is that Oswald was CIA. I’ve been publishing lists of the Oswald intel indicators for many years.  One such list is HERE, toward the bottom of the page after Wilcott’s testimony.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

 

Paul and Sandy, thank you.

Paul - for all the additional Oswald's discharge paperwork and sundry information.

Sandy - for your comments about Oswald and Powers being employees of the CIA. 

Powers - I was aware, and, therefore, yes, it follows he would've been issued the DD Form 1173.  Point taken.   

Oswald - By your statement, I gather evidence has arisen that confirms, beyond all doubt, that he was a CIA employee.  I've always believed that everything, for just about forever now, points to him being an ONI and/or CIA low level operative.

Anyway, if I am following you correctly, you are saying that Oswald's DD Form 1173 "DOD ID Card" (for which there may have been a "handshake agreement" between the DOD and CIA allowing the agency to issue one to any of its employees), dated 09/11/59, the same date as all of Oswald's discharge paperwork, and prepared/signed by the same person (A. G. Ayres, 1st Lt, USMC) was issued to Oswald that day because he already WAS or was ABOUT TO BECOME imminently, a bona fide CIA employee and would need the DD Form 1173 for personal identification, facilities access, etc. 

As much as Oswald's entire history of behavior/actions in the military and after bespeaks of "being undercover", as well as the CIA always denying that he was one of theirs - well, as the late FSU Head Football Coach, Bobby Bowden would've said, "I'm bumfuzzled."  Nothing new, for me.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

 

Paul and Sandy, thank you.

Paul - for all the additional Oswald's discharge paperwork and sundry information.

Sandy - for your comments about Oswald and Powers being employees of the CIA. 

Powers - I was aware, and, therefore, yes, it follows he would've been issued the DD Form 1173.  Point taken.   

Oswald - By your statement, I gather evidence has arisen that confirms, beyond all doubt, that he was a CIA employee.  I've always believed that everything, for just about forever now, points to him being an ONI and/or CIA low level operative.

Anyway, if I am following you correctly, you are saying that Oswald's DD Form 1173 "DOD ID Card" (for which there may have been a "handshake agreement" between the DOD and CIA allowing the agency to issue one to any of its employees), dated 09/11/59, the same date as all of Oswald's discharge paperwork, and prepared/signed by the same person (A. G. Ayres, 1st Lt, USMC) was issued to Oswald that day because he already WAS or was ABOUT TO BECOME imminently, a bona fide CIA employee and would need the DD Form 1173 for personal identification, facilities access, etc. 

As much as Oswald's entire history of behavior/actions in the military and after bespeaks of "being undercover", as well as the CIA always denying that he was one of theirs - well, as the late FSU Head Football Coach, Bobby Bowden would've said, "I'm bumfuzzled."  Nothing new, for me.

 

 

Note : it has been said (Horne ?) that AYERS even got  a Secret Security clearance on Sept. 11, 1959....

This was only 2 months from the end of his tour.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Anyone that has a better copy of the Nagell card ?

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
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[Guest]

And a link to the Nagell property confiscation list where the ID is mentioned.

I have found some inventories (list of all the paperwork he had with him), but the ones I find are often edited

and they don't mention this Oswald ID.  Or am I looking in the wrong places ??

There are some references to the book (his bio), but I don't have that book.... could that be the source ?

 

 

[Guest]

As it seems - for now - the only source for Nagell's "Oswald card" is the book.  And - next - according posts on this forum :  Russell says that he found the card in the files of Nagell's Washington DC attorney, Bernard Fensterwald Jr., whom Nagell retained in 1974. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

As it seems - for now - the only source for Nagell's "Oswald card" is the book.  And - next - according posts on this forum :  Russell says that he found the card in the files of Nagell's Washington DC attorney, Bernard Fensterwald Jr., whom Nagell retained in 1974. 

Jean Paul, you are correct (and thank you for your excellent research earlier in this thread diffusing needless conspiratorial speculation about specific dates on Oswald's paperwork). There is absolutely no chain of custody for the Nagell version of the Oswald ID card and no proof he possessed it anytime earlier than the mid 1970s, as this article very neatly details: https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/dick-russell-s-second-smoking-gun-on-the-richard-case-nagell-story

[Guest]

Any ideas what these staines are on the original LHO doc's ?

Is that from the fingerprinting process ?

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
picture removed to save attachment space

[Ron Ege]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ron,

It is impossible to confirm, beyond all doubt, that Oswald was a CIA operative. But there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence indicating that he was. Even tiny things, like what we just talked about, points in that direction.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a proven fact. And there's no need to waste anymore time debating it.

 

Sandy, thanks.

I hope you don't think I'm debating whether or not Oswald was a CIA operative.  I've been on that page for decades.  I only sought to clarify - if there was something entirely new.  I am a huge fan of your work!