The mystery of the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee and Marina Oswald and their children and its solution

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I'm sharing this video just because it just came out and pertains to the topic. Seems like a lot to swallow for this to be really Oswald, why was Oswald pretending he couldn't drive? Ruth Paine gave him lessons, why was Oswald doing this if he really could drive? Why would he pretend to not drive and test drive a car? 

FWIW To me, Occums razor points to impersonation..

 

Perhaps he could drive, he just wasn't good enough (yet) to get his license, learning to drive takes time and practice.   From what I have read that's what he was doing.

Same for his Russian language ability, he could speak Russian fluently, but they say he was terrible in grammar.   

He spoke fine and fluent in English on TV, yet his writing was terrible.  

IMO It doesn't always have to be one OR the other.  Somewhere in the middle is also possible. 

[Gerry Down]

4 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

The Japan No2 mount was cheap -  IMO - I'm not even sure there actually was another mount directly available for the M/C.  It was never intended to be a sniper rifle, it had no factory provisions for a scope (that's why one needed to drill holes in it).  And it had to be a side-mount or you couldn't feed the magazine-clip.  He could have fitted a better scope in that mount (would also be more expensive).  Klein's apparently made this certain combination for whatever (commercial...) reason.  

Actually, I think the scope only gave it a sniper "look", someone pimped it, but in a cheap way...  It may look nice, but doesn't really serve a purpose.  Up to 200 m they say the M/C works just fine with the fixed iron sight...

I have been reading all day about the M/C and it really isn't that bad it seems, just this scope is no good, and the safety mechanism is "odd" 

My understanding is that Klein's sent the rifle to Oswald with the scope attached.

One possibility is that the scope broke sometime in the summer of 1963 possibly during transit to and from New Orleans. The screw threads wore out or something. Maybe the optics in the scope were off.

So on Nov 11th Oswald wants to sell the rifle and decides it needs a new scope. He wants to put a plunger type scope on it but, like you said, is told that a plunger scope won't fit on a MC rifle and so is stuck with having to use the scope that Klein's sent with it, the Japan scope. And so oswald gets the Japan scope put back on the rifle to be ready for sale.

This scenario could match the furniture Mart incident and Irving sports shop incident together into a logical sequence of events.

[Gerry Down]

Actually it's just the mount Oswald wants to change. He wants to put on a plunger mount but is told that won't fit on a MC rifle and so he's stuck with having to have the Japan mount put back on. 

Presumably in this scenario LHO is only changing the mount and not the scope itself so this would not be an overly expensive repair in anticipation of selling the rifle.

[Gerry Down]

Maybe when Oswald heard the price of a plunger mount at the Irving sports shop he decided it was too expensive and decided to stick with the Japan mount that came with the rifle.

[Gerry Down]

On a recent podcast by Rob Clark, Clark states that there is a story of Oswald calling to an insurance agent across the street from 1026 North Beckley sometime in early November enquiring about getting insurance for a car which he expected to get soon. Could this be further proof backing up the idea that the car in front of Paines house was bought with the intention of giving it to Oswald?

Check out 17 to 24 minutes on this video for full info:

 

[Matthew Koch]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:59 PM, Gerry Down said:

Maybe when Oswald heard the price of a plunger mount at the Irving sports shop he decided it was too expensive and decided to stick with the Japan mount that came with the rifle.

Why would he do that when the gun had the scope already attached?

One has to explain how Oswald got a Carcano that wasn't the right length as the add and had a scope on it. It becomes problematic, because Kliens didn't send the wrong gun with a scope not attached that Oswald later needed attached. So there is a bigger picture he that needs to fit imo and it doesn't seem to, unless this is an attempted impersonation. Oswald driving is another one of those bigger picture parts that needs to be explained... 

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

On a recent podcast by Rob Clark, Clark states that there is a story of Oswald calling to an insurance agent across the street from 1026 North Beckley sometime in early November enquiring about getting insurance for a car which he expected to get soon. Could this be further proof backing up the idea that the car in front of Paines house was bought with the intention of giving it to Oswald?

Good point Gerry! Yes, here it is, and the inquiry concerning pricing of liability car insurance by Oswald across from the rooming house on Beckley occurred "approximately two weeks before the assassination": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=176 

Yes Michael Paine's buying of the '55 Olds for $200 from his colleague at Bell and parking it at Ruth Paine's house looks like it was with the idea of, if Lee wanted to do so, Michael working out something for Lee to buy that car from Michael once Lee got his driver's license.  

[Gerry Down]

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Good point Gerry! Yes, here it is, and the inquiry concerning pricing of liability car insurance by Oswald across from the rooming house on Beckley occurred "approximately two weeks before the assassination": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=176 

Yes Michael Paine's buying of the '55 Olds for $200 from his colleague at Bell and parking it at Ruth Paine's house looks like it was with the idea of, if Lee wanted to do so, Michael working out something for Lee to buy that car from Michael once Lee got his driver's license.  

It looks to me like Michael Paine heard of a cheap car being sold by one of his work colleagues and he bought it in the intention of giving Oswald the chance to buy it. And so the car was parked in front of Ruth Paines house until such time Oswald came up with the money. $200 in 1963 is about $2000 today. That would be a cheap car, but not so cheap that it would be useless. 

The WCR states:

"...Oswald's possession at the time of his arrest, consisting of $13.87 on his person and $170 in his wallet left at the Paine house."

Aside from the interesting point that this is a separate wallet from the one found on him when arrested, this shows that Oswald had saved up almost enough to buy the $200 car, approximately $183. And apparently Oswald had another $43 owed to him by the TSBD on Nov 22nd 1963:

https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/27/lee-harvey-oswald-last-paycheck-uncashed-death-auction/

So it would have been realistic that Oswald would have been able to buy this car around the time frame that he was looking for car insurance and of course trying to sit his driving test. 

[Greg Doudna]

2 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

It looks to me like Michael Paine heard of a cheap car being sold by one of his work colleagues and he bought it in the intention of giving Oswald the chance to buy it. And so the car was parked in front of Ruth Paines house until such time Oswald came up with the money. $200 in 1963 is about $2000 today. That would be a cheap car, but not so cheap that it would be useless. 

The WCR states:

"...Oswald's possession at the time of his arrest, consisting of $13.87 on his person and $170 in his wallet left at the Paine house."

Aside from the interesting point that this is a separate wallet from the one found on him when arrested, this shows that Oswald had saved up almost enough to buy the $200 car, approximately $183. And apparently Oswald had another $43 owed to him by the TSBD on Nov 22nd 1963:

https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/27/lee-harvey-oswald-last-paycheck-uncashed-death-auction/

So it would have been realistic that Oswald would have been able to buy this car around the time frame that he was looking for car insurance and of course trying to sit his driving test. 

Or Michael might work out payments Lee could afford if Lee didn't have the $200 up front. There was also the move to an apartment with Marina on Lee's mind too. 

[Gerry Down]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Or Michael might work out payments Lee could afford if Lee didn't have the $200 up front. There was also the move to an apartment with Marina on Lee's mind too. 

Yes, and the washing machine too. But Oswald did have a regular income at the TSBD so he could have planned out for things like that. Plus with a new apartment, he would be saving the $8 a week at 1026 North Beckley.

I don't know how much a deposit on the new apartment would have been.  Deposits the Oswalds had previously paid for apartments such as 214 West Neely street could be used as a guide. The guy from whom Oswald was thinking of getting an apartment off of, Kenneth Cody, is mentioned in the book "The Girl On the Stairs" but that book does not seem to give any indication as to how much Cody might have been looking for a deposit for the apartments he had in Oak Cliff. 

[Greg Doudna]

Correction on the identity of the inquirer about auto insurance across the street from the Beckley rooming house

I don't think that was Oswald, Gerry. Insurance agent Brand said the man's last name was "Lee" and that he had a driver's license. He said he saw a last name "Lee" on the man's driver's license. That sounds like another tenant at the N. Beckley rooming house who was there in Oct 1963, Herbert Leon Lee, H.L. Lee.

The strength of the driver's license and last name "Lee" memories override Brand's identification of the man as Oswald from a photograph and the "two weeks" ago timing which would be ca. a week after H.L. Lee told the FBI he left the rooming house. H.L. Lee also had no car (he talked about that in later years in an interview of his time at the N. Beckley rooming house). Insurance agent Brand also said the man, Mr. Lee, told him he had just arrived from San Antonio, which does not correspond to Oswald whereas less is known of H.L. Lee's movements (H.L. Lee was originally from Shreveport, La.). 

So that as an Oswald sighting is a misfire, not Oswald, my conclusion.

"... approximately two weeks before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated ... This individual identified himself as O.H. Lee and stated he resided directly across the street in a rooming house owned by A.C. Johnson ... he did not own a car, but intended to buy one in the near future ... Brand was also of the opinion the only identification he saw of Lee's was a Texas drivers license, but did not notice if the initials were O.H., but believed the last name was LEE on this drivers license. Brand concluded by saying he did not immediately recognize Lee Harvey Oswald's photograph in the Dallas newspapers, or on television, until after reading Oswald had in the past used the name LEE, at which time he did recognize Oswald's photograph as being the individual who contacted him regarding insurance under the name of O.H. Lee." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=176)

 

[Gerry Down]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Correction on the identity of the inquirer about auto insurance across the street from the Beckley rooming house

I don't think that was Oswald, Gerry. Insurance agent Brand said the man's last name was "Lee" and that he had a driver's license. He said he saw a last name "Lee" on the man's driver's license. That sounds like another tenant at the N. Beckley rooming house who was there in Oct 1963, Herbert Leon Lee, H.L. Lee.

The strength of the driver's license and last name "Lee" memories override Brand's identification of the man as Oswald from a photograph and the "two weeks" ago timing which would be ca. a week after H.L. Lee told the FBI he left the rooming house. H.L. Lee also had no car (he talked about that in later years in an interview of his time at the N. Beckley rooming house). Insurance agent Brand also said the man, Mr. Lee, told him he had just arrived from San Antonio, which does not correspond to Oswald whereas less is known of H.L. Lee's movements (H.L. Lee was originally from Shreveport, La.). 

So that as an Oswald sighting is a misfire, not Oswald, my conclusion.

"... approximately two weeks before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated ... This individual identified himself as O.H. Lee and stated he resided directly across the street in a rooming house owned by A.C. Johnson ... he did not own a car, but intended to buy one in the near future ... Brand was also of the opinion the only identification he saw of Lee's was a Texas drivers license, but did not notice if the initials were O.H., but believed the last name was LEE on this drivers license. Brand concluded by saying he did not immediately recognize Lee Harvey Oswald's photograph in the Dallas newspapers, or on television, until after reading Oswald had in the past used the name LEE, at which time he did recognize Oswald's photograph as being the individual who contacted him regarding insurance under the name of O.H. Lee." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=176)

 

Thanks. I hadn't considered Herbert Leon Lee. Here is an FBI report regarding an interview with him:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10673#relPageId=145

More than likely, this was indeed the guy looking for car insurance.