Laurent Guyenot's New Essay About JFK-Destiny Betrayed

[Guest]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:35 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Is any critique of Zionism necessarily anti-Semitic?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[W. Niederhut]

15 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

No, but Guyenot is both virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist (Zionism being Jewish nationalism). He argues that the Old Testament "cult of Yahweh" is the basis of modern Zionism.

 

Lance,

     Another one of your clever, rhetorical tricks, eh?   Your special skill seems to be the ability to mislead people by misrepresenting reality in ways that sound superficially plausible to the uninformed.  

     In this instance, you are misrepresenting Guyenot's writings about the history of Judaism on the basis of a loony reviewer named Henry Makow who writes about anti-Semitic Illuminati conspiracy theories, etc.

     Obviously, you haven't read or understood Guyenot's book, From Yahweh to Zion.  It begins with an historical analysis of the monotheistic, tribal cult of Yahweh--contrasting it with the polytheistic religions of the ancient Near East, in Egypt and the Hellenic world.

    Have you studied the Talmud?

    Guyenot's thesis is that, since the Exodus and establishment of the Yahweh cult, Israel has always viewed its tribe as a separate people, chosen by God.  A corollary is the belief that the non-Hebrew goyim are unclean.  Christ, Himself, believed as much, as we can observe in the canonical Gospels.

    In fact, the Babylonian Talmud teaches that the goyim have the spiritual status of beasts.

    These basic concepts-- originating in the post-Exodus cult of Yahweh-- are central to "Zionism," and to some of the intractable conflicts between Orthodox Israeli hardliners and the Palestinian Muslims (and Orthodox Christians.)

    

     

   

[Paul Brancato]

What a minefield this thread is. 
first, Israel did not need nuclear weapons to defend itself, any more than we or any other nation that has them needs them. 
Second, criticizing Israel is not anti Semitic, but a look at the latest move by the Republican controlled House shows how prevalent that view is, and how insidious. But to blame it on Jewish exceptionalism? Republicans don’t mind people in their Party talking about Jewish lasers from space, which is truly is anti-Semitic. But rally behind the Palestinian cause? Big trouble. 
If Jehovah is a Big Lie, so is Christ. And by the way Lance, the Romans did create Christ, whether or not there was a Jewish Rabbi rebel named Jesus. Unless you believe that Paul met the ‘risen’ Jesus on the road to Damascus. 
Why is it that we can examine all kinds of conspiracies, but fail to see this as the greatest hoax of all time? Btw, I’m not an atheist. I just prefer to ‘worship’ Mother Earth and the Sun and stars, and Nature. 

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:55 AM, W. Niederhut said:

Another one of your clever, rhetorical tricks, eh?   Your special skill seems to be the ability to mislead people by misrepresenting reality in ways that sound superficially plausible to the uninformed.  

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:16 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Second, criticizing Israel is not anti Semitic,

 

On 2/3/2023 at 9:16 AM, Paul Brancato said:

If Jehovah is a Big Lie, so is Christ. And by the way Lance, the Romans did create Christ, whether or not there was a Jewish Rabbi rebel named Jesus. Unless you believe that Paul met the ‘risen’ Jesus on the road to Damascus. 

 

On 2/3/2023 at 9:16 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Btw, I’m not an atheist. I just prefer to ‘worship’ Mother Earth and the Sun and stars, and Nature. 

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[W. Niederhut]

50 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

We have an entire class on this at the Cognitive Infiltrator Academy at Langley. As I recall, it's in the first semester of the second year. I got a B+!

Yes, Makow is a Grade A wacko. The point being, this is who fringe scholars like Guyenot attract.

This is from a far less wild-and-crazy review, https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/small-minority-jews-are-real-jewish-question-laurent-guyenots-important-new-book/ri23677.

The book is a critical examination of “Jewish questions” that doesn’t shy away from the most controversial topics—notably such Deep State issues as alleged Zionist orchestration of 20th century world wars, the JFK assassination, and 9/11.

Dr. Guyenot’s thesis, in a nutshell, is that a tiny Jewish elite, representing a very small fraction of Jews, has hijacked the idea of God and turned it to their own aggrandizement. Over two and a half millennia, this elite has terrorized its own people to enforce their sense of separateness from other groups, garnering wealth and power in the process.

The fact is, in Guyenot's agenda-driven scholarship, "the Jews" explain everything. Ergo, it's not surprising they explain the JFKA, 9/11 and the sad state of my golf game.

Lance,

      Again, you are misrepresenting Guyenot's historical scholarship, without having read it.

      In fact, the Talmud is central to Orthodox Jewish theology and praxis.  Nothing "fringe" or elitist about it.

     The concept of Israel as a separate, holy nation goes back to the post-Exodus cult of Yahweh.

      One of the foremost Talmudic scholars of the 20th century was Professor Jacob Neusner, who taught at Brown University's Hillel Center when I was an undergrad at Brown in the 70s.

Edited February 3, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:44 AM, W. Niederhut said:

Lance,

      Again, you are misrepresenting Guyenot's historical scholarship, without having read it.

      In fact, the Talmud is central to Orthodox Jewish theology and praxis.  Nothing "fringe" or elitist about it.

     The concept of Israel as a separate, holy nation goes back to the post-Exodus cult of Yahweh.

      One of the foremost Talmudic scholars of the 20th century was Professor Jacob Neusner, who taught at Brown University's Hillel Center was I was an undergrad at Brown in the 70s.

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to criticize Israel. At the moment it's one of the most atheistic, pro-abortion, pro-LGBTQ nations on the planet. It's also a major U.S. ally and a vital cog in the region. I believe it should receive pretty much all the weaponry it needs. I believe the creation of the nation in 1948 had important religious implications, but I can certainly criticize the current state of the nation without descending into anti-Semitism. The fact is, however, Guyenot's views are both bizarre and anti-Semitic.

As with Guyenot, this is a lunatic-fringe position. The "Jesus myth" position that Jesus never existed at all is a lunatic-fringe position but is supported by better scholars than the notion the Romans elevated Jesus to the Christ in order to pacify the Jews. For those who are interested, here is a quick Catholic discussion of the theory that quotes Richard Carrier, probably the most vociferous "Jesus myth" proponent, as dismissing the "Roman creation" position as the product of a "delusional fanatic" - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/no-the-romans-did-not-invent-jesus.

Well, unless you think there is actually a deity called Mother Earth or Nature, that's an atheistic position.

 

Last first - life is miraculous. 
Second - I was careful not to align myself with the ‘Jesus never existed’ scholars. The Catholic.com article you forwarded relies on the book of Acts, written by Paul, who founded what became Christianity. So we don’t have to doubt Paul’s existence to ask whether Rome invented the resurrected anti-Jewish Jesus Christ. The real question is who was Paul? I don’t have the Bible at home, but I do recall that after his disputes with James, the brother of the by then deceased Jesus, he was taken into custody by Roman soldiers, and taken to Rome. He started his career pursuing Jewish rebels and ended it by creating a new religion based on a Resurrection. We really only have his word, based on a vision, that Jesus had been sent by his Father to forgive the sins of anyone, Jew or Gentile, who would put their faith in him. The doctrine of Faith was argued against by James, who said that Faith without good works on earth was meaningless. I’m inclined to agree. Paul never met Rabbi Jesus.

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:55 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Last first - life is miraculous. 
Second - I was careful not to align myself with the ‘Jesus never existed’ scholars. The Catholic.com article you forwarded relies on the book of Acts, written by Paul, who founded what became Christianity. So we don’t have to doubt Paul’s existence to ask whether Rome invented the resurrected anti-Jewish Jesus Christ. The real question is who was Paul? I don’t have the Bible at home, but I do recall that after his disputes with James, the brother of the by then deceased Jesus, he was taken into custody by Roman soldiers, and taken to Rome. He started his career pursuing Jewish rebels and ended it by creating a new religion based on a Resurrection. We really only have his word, based on a vision, that Jesus had been sent by his Father to forgive the sins of anyone, Jew or Gentile, who would put their faith in him. The doctrine of Faith was argued against by James, who said that Faith without good works on earth was meaningless. I’m inclined to agree. Paul never met Rabbi Jesus.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Cory Santos]

I will never understand why certain people project every problem onto Israel and the Jewish people.

[W. Niederhut]

46 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

I won't beat this to death, but the evidence that Christians worshipped the resurrected Jesus as divine dates to years before the earliest Pauline letters and to within a very, very short time after the resurrection. Paul's resurrection statements in 1 Corinthians reflect that early tradition. There is no way on earth that Paul or his Damascus road encounter were the source of the belief in Jesus' resurrection or divinity. The late English scholar Larry Hurtado wrote extensively on the evidence for the early worship of Jesus, if anyone is interested. Another English scholar, Richard Bauckham, has written extensively about the gospels as being based on eyewitness testimony and a long and very accurate oral tradition. Indeed, one of the principal evidences for the resurrection - acknowledged even by secular scholars - is the almost immediate transformation of the dispirited post-crucifixion Christian community into a group of enthusiastic believers willing to die for their beliefs.

Quite correct.  And Biblical scholars like Harvard's Helmut Koester have dated the Pauline Epistles to 45-64 A.D., and the Synoptic Gospels to 70 A.D. at the latest.  They were based on the testimony of witnesses.

Also, St. Luke (a physician from Antioch) was a friend and companion of St. Paul, whose original history of the Church, the Acts of the Apostles, was based, in part, on his direct observation of events terminating in Paul's execution in Rome in 64 A.D.

But few Protestants and Roman Catholics know the true history of the Church in the first millennium of Christendom-- at the five ancient Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rome and Constantinople.   The Bishop of Rome was always merely the "Patriarch of the West," and "primus inter pares"-- first among equals-- prior to 1054 A.D. and the establishment of the monarchical Papacy in Western Europe.

After 1054 A.D., the Papacy systematically misrepresented the history of the Church to create the false impression that the Church originated in Rome, and the Bishop of Rome had always served as a monarchical Pope of the entire Church.  

In reality, the Great Ecumenical Councils of the Church were convoked in the Orthodox East by the Roman Emperors at Constantinople.  (Rome was sacked by the Arian Ostrogoths in the early 5th century.)

Nor was the original Church wasn't anti-Semitic.  In fact, it was established by the Jews.  It originated in the Jewish communities in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Anatolia, and the Levant, and the ancient Orthodox Christian liturgies and praxis were derived directly from Judaism.

As for 9/11, the perennial third rail in modern American discourse...

     Since Lance Payette has raised the subject of Guyenot's writings about Israel and 9/11, let me ask a few questions.

    (To date, Lance has never answered a single question that I have ever posted here, but I'll try again.)

    How much does Lance know about Larry Silverstein-- Bibi Netanyahu's close friend-- who was awarded the lease to the WTC Twin Towers by the Port Authority in July of 2001?  Silverstein was in charge of WTC security during the weeks prior to 9/11.  Yet, he was never interviewed by Phillip Zelikow's 9/11 Commission.

     Silverstein's insurance payout for the 9/11 WTC demolitions was $4.5 billion.  Cui bono?

     Silverstein conveniently skipped his morning breakfast meeting in the WTC on 9/11 then later, "told them to pull" his WTC7 before the skyscraper collapsed in an expert, free fall demolition.

     Who was Silverstein referring to as, "them?"  Certainly, not the NYFD.

    How much has Lance read about the "Five Dancing Israeli" Mossad agents who were arrested near Giant's Stadium in Rutherford, New Jersey on 9/11, after witnesses saw them filming and celebrating the demolitions of the WTC Twin Towers in Liberty State Park?  (Their employer at Urban Moving Systems in Weehawken, New Jersey, Dominick Suter, is a known Mossad agent who fled to Israel after his "Five Dancing Israeli" employees were arrested on 9/11.)

     The "Five" were arrested and detained by the FBI for 70 days before being quietly released to Israel.  Their celebratory 9/11 photos were eventually released by the FBI, after an FOIA lawsuit.)  The five young men later announced on Israeli television that they were in Liberty State Park on the morning of 9/11 to "document the event."

     But how did the Five Dancers know in advance that there was going to be an event on 9/11?  And why were they celebrating?  

     At the very least, the facts in the case indicate that the Mossad had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks on the WTC.

     Also, to Lance's knowledge, have the Israelis ever been known to dress up like Arabs while blowing up buildings?

    (Hint:  Menachem Begin.  Irgun.  King David Hotel. Lavon Affair.)

     Finally, Lance, does the Babylonian Talmud say anything about the permissibility of Israelites killing the beastly goyim to advance the interests of Israel?

    How "kooky" does Guyenot's analysis sound to people familiar with these subjects?

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:47 AM, Cory Santos said:

I will never understand why certain people project every problem onto Israel and the Jewish people.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:52 AM, W. Niederhut said:

As for 9/11, the perennial third rail in modern American discourse...

     Since Lance Payette has raised the subject of Guyenot's writings about Israel and 9/11, let me ask a few questions.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Matthew Koch]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:17 PM, Matthew Koch said:

I've got Guyenot's book on JFK and IMHO it's garbage, it's called 'The unspoken Kennedy Truth' 

To expand on this statement; the book I have from Guyénnot is called: 'The unspoken Kennedy TRUTH' 

Here is a two paragraph excerpt from his introduction:

'The title of this book is an ironic reference to the now classic book by James Douglas, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters (2008). It was my first serious reading on John Kennedy's assassination, and it determined my intense interest for the case. I loved it so much that I convinced a French Publisher to translate it. It draws a great portrayal of John Kennedy's character, vision, and efforts for lasting peace, and it convincingly documents his struggle against the hawks of the military and intelligence establishment.

However, I now consider it to be misleading in it's final verdict, for failing to mention crucial evidence. In that regard, Douglass's book is representative of the dominate school in JFK-assassination research. It has at least four huge blind spots: Johnson, Ruby, Angleton and - the biggest of all - Dimona.' 

 

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

The amazing survival of the Jewish people throughout the centuries, and the incessant scapegoating of them throughout the same period, are enough to make me think there really is a supernatural dimension to it.

I don't want to be seen as promoting Christianity since this is hardly the place, or as demeaning the views of Paul, Niederhut or anyone else. My point is just that things like "the Romans invented Christ" and Guyenot's theories seem as wild as Harvey & Lee - so far afield that I'm agog intelligent people take them seriously.

If you think the resurrection is nonsense or there was a Zionist element to the JFKA, fine. But keep it evidence-based and within the ballpark of rationality and actual scholarship.

One of my best friends is Jewish and he often mentions at lunch about how the Jewish people have been treated. It is interesting listening and learning from his perspective.   I would add one thing Lance, with conspiracy thought, it seems to always indict conservative and/or Republican right wing as being behind conspiracies.   Look how many conspiracists think the Bush family is tied to ufos, jfk and, 911.   It is truly mind boggling.