Oliver Stone's Destiny Betrayed and the 544 Camp Street Handbill

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

Way back in 1968, Harold Weisberg wrote that two of the four Lamont pamphlets supposedly obtained from Oswald by the New Orleans Police Department had the Camp Street address, but he was uncertain of the chain of custody. He added, "As far as I know, none of the 'Hands Off Cuba' handbills or any other of Oswald's literature had the Camp St. address."  

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Oswald Lee Harvey/Literature Distribution/Hoch Paul Memoranda/Item 01.pdf

Not a biggie, but you're quoting Hoch.

[Guest]

On 2/1/2023 at 1:46 PM, Mark Ulrik said:

Not a biggie, but you're quoting Hoch.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Joe Bauer]

So, the pamphlets with the Camp Street address are bogus?

Did Joe Newbrough have any comments about even the possibility that Oswald may have had some contact with Banister or ever been in the building in anyway?

Same with ever seeing David Ferry with Banister?

In Garrison's book "On The Trail Of The Assassins" he cites Banister's part time investigator Jack Martin as saying he saw Oswald among the "like a circus" strange people crowd coming and going to and from Banister's offices.

Who here believes Jack Martin said this to Garrison?

 

[Gerry Down]

53 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

So, the pamphlets with the Camp Street address are bogus?

I think the weight of the evidence is that the one pamphlet in evidence with the 544 camp street address is genuine. No handbills though with that address ever surfaced. 

[Mart Hall]

To go back to the original post, I just happened to be watching (for the umpteenth time) the 4th episode of Destiny Betrayed.

In episode 4 John Newman explains that SOME of the hand bills had the 544 Camp Street address stamped on them and the VT also shows the Magazine St bill as exhibited by the WC. 

Newman also explains and shows that FBI agent Mayner stated in his report to the Bureau, that several of the FPFC bills found included the 544 Camp St address but in his report that had been scratched out by someone.

I did start to read the Fred Litwin article but stopped quite early on when he referred to a hand bill in the JFK film as not being genuine. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Mart Hall
Misread OP. Corrected.

[Gerry Down]

Does anyone know why some of LHOs handbills appear to be two separate handbills joined together. Surely this is not the way a professional printing company would print them? Was Oswald expected to cut these handbills in two before handing them out?

 

[Guest]

Not sure, but it looks bulky and has a piece of string on the left.

Could be the "bag" (I know, not another bag.... ) they were supplied in ?

Long time since I ordered printed materials, but I remember they usually had an example of the print attached to the outside the box

or whatever they were delivered in, something like that...

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

From another DPD picture, different angle

Looks open on one end and closed on the other ?

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Could be this item

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Steve Roe]

Just now, Tom Gram said:

Another possibility is that tenants at 531 Lafayette could receive mail at 544 Camp St., in which case it doesn't really matter if the offices were connected or not.

Newman said the CRC took their "several sets of keys" with them to 544 Camp when they moved out and never returned them. Newman also said that "Guy Banister was well acquainted with this organization". 

Also, Arnesto Rodriguez Jr. appears to have attempted to rent 544 Camp for "night Spanish classes" in the Summer of '63, which is another can of worms.  

The most innocent lone assassin explanation possible for Oswald's use of 544 Camp for the FPCC is that Oswald came across some old CRC flyers, which Sam Newman said were left in the office and donated to the Salvation Army or something, and decided to use the same address to make his pamphlets seem more legit. However, based on the available evidence, I think it's pretty reasonable to suspect there's more to it than that. 

I believe it's more likely the mailman would drop off Banister's mail at the 531 Lafayette address. Since the Newman building is gone, it would have been interesting to see interior photos to determine. Often those office buildings had mail slots on the doors, and in other cases there was a mailbox inside the building. I recall many times mailmen going to office buildings and dropping off mail office by office. 

Yes, that's correct, Banister was well acquainted with the CRC. They were in the Balter Building together and Banister helped organize a corporation for either CRC or the other Cuban organization that escapes my memory with Billy Dazell. 

The old CRC flyers left in the Newman building is a possibility. Oswald did write to VT Lee about opening an office, but there's no evidence he ever did. Then Newman building was just a short block away from Reily Coffee. We walked that area on our last visit to New Orleans. 

Tom, this is for others as I believe you understand the flyers. 

There was a 544 Camp St. address stamped on the Corlis Lamont pamphlets. There were no flyers/handbills/leaflets stamped with 544 Camp St. Oswald ordered those Lamont pamphlets in a letter to VT Lee (he was out of town on the West Coast) while in Dallas. Oswald most definitely handed out pamphlets while in Dallas, specifically at the H.L. Green variety store, located on Ervay and Main. You can see that letter, VT Lee exhibit #1. He was asking for more of those pamphlets before he took off to New Orleans. 

I'd like to see the Arnesto Rodriguez Jr. ---544 Camp St. info if you have it available. 

[Steve Roe]

47 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Could be this item

Excellent, good work!

[Pat Speer]

22 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Well, that's your choice. I did help on that blog article tracking down the fake handbill. Sorry I can't make everyone happy here. 

If you don't find value in this, then others will. 

I've been following this from afar, Steve. But it seems to me someone needs to create a timeline to demonstrate when this fake handbill first appeared. Did it first appear after Stone's movie? Was the stamp made for the movie, and did someone in the movie, or working on the movie, then stamp a handbill, when he/she should have stamped a pamphlet? Was this Robert Groden?

I view this whole thing as a mistake that ought to be cleared up. Making out that that Jim or Oliver knew the prop in their film was a fake doesn't really help things. We all know that mistakes will be made in any large production, whether it be a book or a movie, etc. You guys are correct to point out this mistake. But it doesn't really answer the question raised by the film, right? I mean, why would Oswald print that address on the pamphlets he was handing out? It's curious, is it not?

It may have an innocent explanation, but it's curious. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I've been following this from afar, Steve. But it seems to me someone needs to create a timeline to demonstrate when this fake handbill first appeared. Did it first appear after Stone's movie? Was the stamp made for the movie, and did someone in the movie, or working on the movie, then stamp a handbill, when he/she should have stamped a pamphlet? Was this Robert Groden?

I view this whole thing as a mistake that ought to be cleared up. Making out that that Jim or Oliver knew the prop in their film was a fake doesn't really help things. We all know that mistakes will be made in any large production, whether it be a book or a movie, etc. You guys are correct to point out this mistake. But it doesn't really answer the question raised by the film, right? I mean, why would Oswald print that address on the pamphlets he was handing out? It's curious, is it not?

It may have an innocent explanation, but it's curious. 

You guys know this of course, I did not : "In the late 1980s, Groden was a consultant for Oliver Stone's 1991 film JFK,[3] even appearing in two brief cameo roles: as a Parkland doctor working to save the President and as the courtroom projectionist showing the Zapruder film during the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans (Stone, 2000)".

Groden had almost fooled me with his fake BYP without LHO (pictured in his photographic book)

I like Stone, but I sure don't like Groden...    

 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

I've been following this from afar, Steve. But it seems to me someone needs to create a timeline to demonstrate when this fake handbill first appeared. Did it first appear after Stone's movie? Was the stamp made for the movie, and did someone in the movie, or working on the movie, then stamp a handbill, when he/she should have stamped a pamphlet? Was this Robert Groden?

I view this whole thing as a mistake that ought to be cleared up. Making out that that Jim or Oliver knew the prop in their film was a fake doesn't really help things. We all know that mistakes will be made in any large production, whether it be a book or a movie, etc. You guys are correct to point out this mistake. But it doesn't really answer the question raised by the film, right? I mean, why would Oswald print that address on the pamphlets he was handing out? It's curious, is it not?

It may have an innocent explanation, but it's curious. 

Pat, the fake flyer/leaflet/handbill show up in the Stone's JFK movie. This appears to be the origin of using a fake movie prop. 

So yes, I think it's relevant to Oliver Stone. 

You can see the this explained in Fred's first blog post about the handbills. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills

However, the fake handbill in Destiny Betrayed is a different one. 

Lance's post on the pamphlets is right. And there lies the mystery, FPCC stamped with the 544 Camp St on the Corlis Lamont pamphlets. I suspect Oswald did intend to open an office there, but backed out for some unknown reason, jumping the gun and stamping the Lamont pamphlets. But as Lance postulates, and that could be another reason, he stamped it to impress VT Lee of the FPCC. 

Keep in mind, Oswald also stamped the fly leaf of William Manchester's book, Portrait of a President with FPCC. This of course was checked out of the Napoleon Branch Library just a short walk from where he lived on Magazine Street. Running short of time, I'll dig that up later.