Oliver Stone's Destiny Betrayed and the 544 Camp Street Handbill

[Steve Roe]

15 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

You guys know this of course, I did not : "In the late 1980s, Groden was a consultant for Oliver Stone's 1991 film JFK,[3] even appearing in two brief cameo roles: as a Parkland doctor working to save the President and as the courtroom projectionist showing the Zapruder film during the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans (Stone, 2000)".

Groden had almost fooled me with his fake BYP without LHO (pictured in his photographic book)

I like Stone, but I sure don't like Groden...    

 

That is true. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

You guys know this of course, I did not : "In the late 1980s, Groden was a consultant for Oliver Stone's 1991 film JFK,[3] even appearing in two brief cameo roles: as a Parkland doctor working to save the President and as the courtroom projectionist showing the Zapruder film during the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans (Stone, 2000)".

Groden had almost fooled me with his fake BYP without LHO (pictured in his photographic book)

I like Stone, but I sure don't like Groden...    

 

Are you talking about the back yard photos with the figure cut out? I thought the DPD said this was a photo of Det. Bobby Brown in the Oswald pose, and that they were testing to see if the back yard photos could have been a matte or some such thing. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

Further FWIW: I just noticed in the 1968 Hoch letter I linked earlier that 20 copies of the Lamont pamphlet were recovered in Irving after the assassination. Nine had no address, ten had the 544 address, and one had an illegible notation that appeared to be part of the 544 address.

I hadn't heard this before. I had always thought that there was only one of these pamphlets stamped with 544 camp street, but now you say there are 10 altogether. Is there an official acknowledgment of these 10 other than a letter written by Hoch?

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

Keep in mind, Oswald also stamped the fly leaf of William Manchester's book, Portrait of a President with FPCC. This of course was checked out of the Napoleon Branch Library just a short walk from where he lived on Magazine Street. Running short of time, I'll dig that up later. 

Would like to see this. 

[Guest]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:58 AM, Gerry Down said:

I hadn't heard this before. I had always thought that there was only one of these pamphlets stamped with 544 camp street, but now you say there are 10 altogether. Is there an official acknowledgment of these 10 other than a letter written by Hoch?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gerry Down]

31 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

A page of Hoch's letter states "FBI Exhibits 99 and 303 are respectively 3 and 17 copies of this pamphlet by Corliss Lamont which were found in Irving (24 H 278, 24 H 332, 24 H 337). The Archives has advised that 9 copies have no address on page 39 and that 10 have the address 'FPCC  544 CAMP ST.  NEW ORLEANS, LA.'"

I have no more time right now, but hopefully that will give you enough to work from.

Thanks. If there was 10 pamphlets with that address then it really makes the case that Oswald had an office there for the 3 days like he suggested to V.T. Lee.

This link you previously provided seems to be broken and is not available on the Wayback Machine:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Oswald Lee Harvey/Literature Distribution/Hoch Paul Memoranda/Item 01.pdf

Trying to find this same letter again on the Harold Weisberg archive seems like a mammoth task:

https://archive.org/details/weisberg-complete-archive 

[Guest]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:43 PM, Gerry Down said:

Thanks. If there was 10 pamphlets with that address then it really makes the case that Oswald had an office there for the 3 days like he suggested to V.T. Lee.

This link you previously provided seems to be broken and is not available on the Wayback Machine:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Oswald Lee Harvey/Literature Distribution/Hoch Paul Memoranda/Item 01.pdf

Trying to find this same letter again on the Harold Weisberg archive seems like a mammoth task:

https://archive.org/details/weisberg-complete-archive 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Are you talking about the back yard photos with the figure cut out? I thought the DPD said this was a photo of Det. Bobby Brown in the Oswald pose, and that they were testing to see if the back yard photos could have been a matte or some such thing. 

No, it's a different picture, not from the testing (the testing pictures show the bushes have grown, etc).

Groden had taken an "orignal LHO picture and left LHO out.  I'll look it up and post it.

 

[Guest]

Left is the Groden picture (The Killing of a President, p. 168)

Right is one of the test pictures (from a whole range of pictures) 

Also added an actual BYP with Oswald, just compare the bushes and the other details

It's clear Groden took an original and cut out Oswald and filled in the empty space (actually he did a nice job at it, but the purpose and presentation in his book was bad).  

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

There are number of indications Groden faked it, e.g. he copied a piece of the fence where LHO legs were.  Also, the blanket (?) against the pole under the stair was no longer present in the test-pictures, in Groden's it still is there.  

So Groden's is based on the real thing, he cut-out Oswald, filled in the empty spaces and used and presented the result as proof the BYP were fake, yet he presented it as real and comming from the Dallas Archives (see credits for picture 168-c on p. 223 of his book...)   

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

If the Groden BYP w/o LHO was real, that would have serious consequences : Marina took another picture, this one without LHO..., an indication to the BYP's being fake (as Groden wants us to believe, see his writings on page 168) 

I would have no problem if Groden did this to simply proof "it could be done", but he should have mentioned that, now he presented it as a piece of evidence in the original files and that the WC decided to ignore it.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks. If there was 10 pamphlets with that address then it really makes the case that Oswald had an office there for the 3 days like he suggested to V.T. Lee.

This link you previously provided seems to be broken and is not available on the Wayback Machine:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Oswald Lee Harvey/Literature Distribution/Hoch Paul Memoranda/Item 01.pdf

Trying to find this same letter again on the Harold Weisberg archive seems like a mammoth task:

https://archive.org/details/weisberg-complete-archive 

Sam Newman didn't report that anyone matching Oswald's description tried to rent from him, but he did describe a dead ringer for Arnesto Rodriguez Jr. paying a month in advance rent for "night Spanish classes" in June or July '63... 

Also, according to Newman, the CRC never returned their "several sets of keys" to 544 Camp St. when they were evicted. So basically a who's who of Cuban exile suspects in this case had ongoing access to that office... 

Here's one of the CRC flyers with the 544 Camp St. address:

 

 

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Are you talking about the back yard photos with the figure cut out? I thought the DPD said this was a photo of Det. Bobby Brown in the Oswald pose, and that they were testing to see if the back yard photos could have been a matte or some such thing. 

Related information.......

Date: 6/5/2015 (3:57:47 P.M. EDT)
E-Mail From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein

-------------------

Hey Dave,

Well, the CTs are all wound up again over the BY photos but I'm continually puzzled as to why they claim things don't make sense?

For example, [David] Josephs misrepresents when the third pose was found by saying "NYE 1976". I guess that's code for New Year's Eve? Anyway, that third pose was known to exist in November 1963. Det. Bobby Brown was interviewed for local TV back in the early 90s and described how and why Fritz sent him out to duplicate the poses (plural) to look into Oswald's claim that CE134 (the blowup) was fake.

So yes, DPD had at least three poses and it's fair to wonder what the heck happened to the missing negative. But the poses were evidence when Brown made his test studies.

As for the copies, as we know from DPD reports and later interviews, Det. Studebaker made souvenir copies of them for many officers, including Rusty Livingstone and, apparently, Roscoe White. Of course, anyone could have acquired copies from other officers in later weeks and months and there's just no way to know now who did what and when.

What the CTs never talk about is Marguerite and Marina both admitting to destroying a fourth pose in which Oswald held the rifle over his head. They did that the next day BEFORE Dallas Police found the other pictures.

I knew Marguerite and I know Marina (although we haven't spoken in years) and not only did both women readily admit to having testified to the WC about destroying the photo, both were aware of the picture controversy and both said the destroyed picture was, in fact, just like the other three - taken in the Neely Street back yard.

What this means is that IF the BY photos are fake (but they aren't), Oswald is the one who faked them! Phew! It's hard to keep all this straight.

Gary
 

Edited February 2, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Gerry Down]

12 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Not sure, but it looks bulky and has a piece of string on the left.

Could be the "bag" (I know, not another bag.... ) they were supplied in ?

Long time since I ordered printed materials, but I remember they usually had an example of the print attached to the outside the box

or whatever they were delivered in, something like that...

I don't know. And it seems bent in an unusual way too with rounded corners.

[Guest]

I have been searching the descriptions etc of those specific pieces in evidence.  But nothing solid, just the one I posted that said FFPC flyers "in evelope".

And I took a better look at the other picture and IMO the corners on the right look crunched, and on the other side it's clearly open.

For now I'm sticking to it being an envelope, unless someone finds better pictures.  But the envelope (or bag) seemed to have disappeared at a certain moment, as were numerous of the flyers they had find (over 300 in total) , giving them to officers as a souvenir... not many left

Anyway, I have opened another file for this one (and included some interesting statements on the stamps Magazin/PO box/Camp/...

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans