My Tippit Debate w/Matt Douthit

[Bill Brown]

This is the first portion of a debate I did with Matt Douthit a couple years ago. More to come. 

https://www.spreaker.com/user/4798726/mysteries-in-the-music-case-closed

[Bill Brown]

My Tippit debate with Matt Douthit.  Raw and unedited, so please forgive...

 

 

[Marcus Fuller]

A hairline is defined as the margin or outline of the hair. If Benavides' view of that part was blocked by the collar of a shirt or jacket, he wouldn't have mentioned the hairline. Logically he would have just said that he couldn't see the hairline at the back as it was covered by the guys collar.

[Bill Brown]

2 minutes ago, Marcus Fuller said:

A hairline is defined as the margin or outline of the hair. If Benavides' view of that part was blocked by the collar of a shirt or jacket, he wouldn't have mentioned the hairline. Logically he would have just said that he couldn't see the hairline at the back as it was covered by the guys collar.

 

Or.... the jacket collar gave the appearance that the hair at the collar line was squared-off.

 

[Marcus Fuller]

5 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Or.... the jacket collar gave the appearance that the hair at the collar line was squared-off.

 

He didn't say collar line though. He specifically said 'hairline'. To describe the hairline he would have needed to have seen bare skin after the hair stopped. Something he could not have done if a collar was covering it. You wouldn't make a claim that someone's hairline was receding at the front if they were wearing a baseball cap. You'd just say, I couldn't see the hairline at the front as they had a cap on.

At only 15' away he would have had an excellent view.

[Michael Griffith]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:21 PM, Bill Brown said:

This is the first portion of a debate I did with Matt Douthit a couple years ago. More to come. 

https://www.spreaker.com/user/4798726/mysteries-in-the-music-case-closed

I stopped listening when I heard the nonsensical claim that Tippit was shot at 1:14 or 1:15. This is not a serious argument. Given all that we now know about the case, the argument is inexcusable. It is a specious, forced argument that ignores the clear weight of the evidence. It is based on a refusal to admit that Oswald simply could not have gotten to 10th and Patton on foot in time to shoot Tippit.

When Mrs. Roberts looked out the window of the rooming house a short time after Oswald left the house, she saw him standing near the street.  

Myers says the shooting occurred at 1:14:30. A very brisk pace would have put Oswald at the Tippit scene at 1:14, if we assume he began his speed walk at 1:04 and right after Mrs. Roberts saw him standing near the street; but that would not have left enough time for him to walk past 10th and Patton, spin around, start walking the other way, get stopped by Tippit, have a "friendly chat" with Tippit (per Markham), wait while Tippit got out of the car, and then shoot Tippit. And note, again, that this whole scenario assumes that Oswald suddenly started his alleged sprint-walk right after Mrs. Roberts saw him standing near the road.

Mrs. Markham said that she left her apartment building at 1:04, that it would have taken her about 2 minutes to walk from her apartment building to the Tippit scene, that she walked to her bus stop every day, and that she had a routine of leaving at 1:00 to catch her bus. Myers would have us believe that Markham erred substantially, by 7 minutes, in her recollection of when she left her apartment building, even though she noted that as she was leaving she glanced at the clock in the laundry room of her apartment building and that the clock read 1:04. Nonetheless, Myers argues that Mrs. Markham was mistaken. Yes, of course.

And then there is Domingo Benavides. The standard lone-gunman explanation is that Benavides waited in his truck only for a matter of seconds and not for a few minutes. But this flies in the face of common sense, not to mention that it ignores what Benavides himself initially said, which was that he waited in his truck for "a few minutes." If you were only 25-50 feet away from a shooting and feared you could be the next target, how long would you wait until coming out into the open again?

Understandably, and by all accounts, Benavides was scared to death by the shooting. He told the WC he waited in his truck "a few minutes" after he heard the shots. According to fellow witness Ted Calloway, Benavides told him the day after the shooting that,

          When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck and I stayed there. It scared me to death. (p. 220)

Years later, Benavides changed his story and told CBS he only waited a few seconds, not a few minutes. Predictably, Myers chooses to accept Benavides' belated change of story and rejects his original statements (pp. 86-87).

Clearly, Benavides did in fact wait in his truck for a minute or two after the shots rang out, and the case against Oswald collapses, unless one is willing to assume some unknown person gave Oswald a ride to the Tippit shooting scene. Myers is willing to speculate that this might have happened, suggesting that a person who gave Oswald a ride would not have come forward to tell about it because he would have been too embarrassed (p. 352). But why would Oswald have wanted to be dropped off at 10th and Patton?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[David Von Pein]

The constant "He Couldn't Have Possibly Gotten To Tenth Street In Time To Kill Tippit" refrain we keep hearing from conspiracy theorists is a huge red herring (i.e., cop out). CTers will forever ignore the very best evidence in the Tippit case---the bullet shells that littered 10th & Patton on 11/22/63.

Edited November 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

The constant "He Couldn't Have Possibly Gotten To Tenth Street In Time To Kill Tippit" refrain we keep hearing from conspiracy theorists is a huge red herring (i.e., cop out). CTers will forever ignore the very best evidence in the Tippit case---the bullet shells that littered 10th & Patton on 11/22/63.

You are stuck in a time warp, as if it were still the 1960s. One FBI lab report said Oswald's revolver had a defective firing pin and wouldn't even fire a bullet. BuLab concluded “the firing pin would not strike one or more of the cartridges with sufficient force to fire them.”

Speaking of those bullet shells, why didn't they have Poe's markings on them? And why didn't they have any firing-pin indentations on them? Hey? How could Sgt. Hill have mistaken revolver shells for auto shells when auto shells are clearly marked as such? I know, I know: yet another "mistake."

The fact that Tippit was shot several minutes before Oswald could have even speed-walked there is not a "red herring" but an inconvenient fact that you folks will never admit. Thus, you lamely assume that Bowley's watch was severely slow or that he misread it, that Markham couldn't read the clock in her apartment complex's laundry room or that she "misremembered" the time on the clock, and that Benavides only waited a few seconds before coming out of his truck, never mind that he initially said he was scared to death and stayed in his truck for a few minutes (as any sane, sensible person would have done), etc., etc.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

You are stuck in a time warp, as if it were still the 1960s.

I'd say it was YOU who is the one "stuck" somewhere. You're stuck in a Conspiracy Universe filled with outdated and very worn-out excuses in your efforts to exonerate an obvious cop-killer. And the Poe shells are another red herring utilized by desperate CTers. The OTHER 2 shells found on 10th Street are always pretty much ignored by the CT faithful. (Those 2 shells have a clear and clean chain of custody, despite the silly CTer protestations.)

More....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/murder-of-jd-tippit-part-2.html

 

[David Von Pein]

Bonus Discussion......

WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:

This utterly ridiculous statement is the product of a warped brain. The author bases his statement on his imagination.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Quite the contrary, Mr. Cakebread. The "warped brain" is possessed by the conspiracy theorists who are constantly bending over backwards in order to pretend that virtually all of the evidence that hangs Mr. Oswald is tainted or fraudulent---without a bit of proof to show that any of it was actually faked. A CTer's suspicions about the evidence is more than enough "proof" for them.

In reality, of course, my 2013 statement concerning Oswald and the Tippit murder is a perfectly accurate quote given the sum total of the evidence as it exists in the Tippit case.

Regarding some of the physical evidence in the Tippit case....

There's absolutely nothing "tainted" or "suspicious" when it comes to the two bullet shells found by Barbara and Virginia Davis in their side yard on 11/22/63. There's a clear and distinct chain of possession for each of those shell casings—going from each Davis girl straight into the hands of two different Dallas Police Department officers.

Oh, yes, I expect Walter Cakebread to storm back into this discussion very shortly and argue that he knows for a fact that the DPD markings that exist on the two bullet shells found by the Davis girls—those being the markings put there by Detective C.N. Dhority and Crime Lab Captain George M. Doughty (one bullet shell each)—are in some fashion fraudulent, manufactured, or fake, and therefore should be discarded as "real" evidence in the J.D. Tippit murder investigation. But a conspiracy theorist's suspicions about those two shells do not add up to anything even remotely resembling "proof" that the shells are not legitimate evidence.

And I suppose that Walt will also argue that the following two excerpts from the FBI report found on pages 414 and 415 of Warren Commission Volume 24 are nothing but lies as well:

"On June 12, 1964, four .38 Special cartridge cases...were shown to Captain G.M. Doughty of the Dallas Police Department. .... Captain Doughty identified his marking on one of these cases. .... Captain Doughty stated this is the same shell which he obtained from Barbara Jeanette Davis at Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 7

"On June 12, 1964, the same four cartridge cases...were shown by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum to Detective C.N. Dhority, Homicide Division, Dallas Police Department. .... Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis, Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963." -- CE2011; Page 8

(Also see Pages 266-269 of Dale Myers' book "With Malice"; 1998 Edition.)


OTTO BECK SAID:

You can beat Walt to it and tell us what mark Dhority put on the shell.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Don't know. The markings on the shell are not clear enough to discern when looking at the series of three pictures of the shell which were photographed by Dale Myers and published on page 268 of "With Malice" (1998 Edition).

But the markings were discernible to Dhority himself in June of '64 when he positively IDed the shell as the one he marked on 11/22/63....

"Detective Dhority identified his marking on one of these cartridge cases. .... He stated this is the same cartridge case which he obtained from Virginia Davis...on November 22, 1963." -- CD1258, p.8 and CE2011, p.8 [http://maryferrell.org/Doc=11653]

David Von Pein
September 26-27, 2021
 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Bill Brown]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:56 AM, Michael Griffith said:

I stopped listening when I heard the nonsensical claim that Tippit was shot at 1:14 or 1:15. This is not a serious argument. Given all that we now know about the case, the argument is inexcusable. It is a specious, forced argument that ignores the clear weight of the evidence. It is based on a refusal to admit that Oswald simply could not have gotten to 10th and Patton on foot in time to shoot Tippit.

When Mrs. Roberts looked out the window of the rooming house a short time after Oswald left the house, she saw him standing near the street.  

Myers says the shooting occurred at 1:14:30. A very brisk pace would have put Oswald at the Tippit scene at 1:14, if we assume he began his speed walk at 1:04 and right after Mrs. Roberts saw him standing near the street; but that would not have left enough time for him to walk past 10th and Patton, spin around, start walking the other way, get stopped by Tippit, have a "friendly chat" with Tippit (per Markham), wait while Tippit got out of the car, and then shoot Tippit. And note, again, that this whole scenario assumes that Oswald suddenly started his alleged sprint-walk right after Mrs. Roberts saw him standing near the road.

Mrs. Markham said that she left her apartment building at 1:04, that it would have taken her about 2 minutes to walk from her apartment building to the Tippit scene, that she walked to her bus stop every day, and that she had a routine of leaving at 1:00 to catch her bus. Myers would have us believe that Markham erred substantially, by 7 minutes, in her recollection of when she left her apartment building, even though she noted that as she was leaving she glanced at the clock in the laundry room of her apartment building and that the clock read 1:04. Nonetheless, Myers argues that Mrs. Markham was mistaken. Yes, of course.

And then there is Domingo Benavides. The standard lone-gunman explanation is that Benavides waited in his truck only for a matter of seconds and not for a few minutes. But this flies in the face of common sense, not to mention that it ignores what Benavides himself initially said, which was that he waited in his truck for "a few minutes." If you were only 25-50 feet away from a shooting and feared you could be the next target, how long would you wait until coming out into the open again?

Understandably, and by all accounts, Benavides was scared to death by the shooting. He told the WC he waited in his truck "a few minutes" after he heard the shots. According to fellow witness Ted Calloway, Benavides told him the day after the shooting that,

          When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck and I stayed there. It scared me to death. (p. 220)

Years later, Benavides changed his story and told CBS he only waited a few seconds, not a few minutes. Predictably, Myers chooses to accept Benavides' belated change of story and rejects his original statements (pp. 86-87).

Clearly, Benavides did in fact wait in his truck for a minute or two after the shots rang out, and the case against Oswald collapses, unless one is willing to assume some unknown person gave Oswald a ride to the Tippit shooting scene. Myers is willing to speculate that this might have happened, suggesting that a person who gave Oswald a ride would not have come forward to tell about it because he would have been too embarrassed (p. 352). But why would Oswald have wanted to be dropped off at 10th and Patton?

 

"And then there is Domingo Benavides. The standard lone-gunman explanation is that Benavides waited in his truck only for a matter of seconds and not for a few minutes. But this flies in the face of common sense, not to mention that it ignores what Benavides himself initially said, which was that he waited in his truck for "a few minutes." If you were only 25-50 feet away from a shooting and feared you could be the next target, how long would you wait until coming out into the open again?

Understandably, and by all accounts, Benavides was scared to death by the shooting. He told the WC he waited in his truck "a few minutes" after he heard the shots. According to fellow witness Ted Calloway, Benavides told him the day after the shooting that,

          When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck and I stayed there. It scared me to death. (p. 220)

Years later, Benavides changed his story and told CBS he only waited a few seconds, not a few minutes. Predictably, Myers chooses to accept Benavides' belated change of story and rejects his original statements (pp. 86-87)."

 

So then you must believe that Benavides was still cowering down inside his truck while others, like Helen Markham and Frank Cimino, began to mill around the car.

 

He told Eddie Barker (The Warren Report, part 3, CBS, 1967) that he waited a second or two before getting out once the killer went around the corner.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:31 PM, David Von Pein said:

I'd say it was YOU who is the one "stuck" somewhere. You're stuck in a Conspiracy Universe filled with outdated and very worn-out excuses in your efforts to exonerate an obvious cop-killer. And the Poe shells are another red herring utilized by desperate CTers. The OTHER 2 shells found on 10th Street are always pretty much ignored by the CT faithful. (Those 2 shells have a clear and clean chain of custody, despite the silly CTer protestations.)

More....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/murder-of-jd-tippit-part-2.html

 

 

That's correct; not to mention, Poe told the Warren Commission that he couldn't even be sure that he marked the two shells given to him.

 

[Marcus Fuller]

8 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

He told Eddie Barker (The Warren Report, part 3, CBS, 1967) that he waited a second or two before getting out once the killer went around the corner.

My emphasis.

So it wasn't a second or two after the shots were fired. Otherwise he'd have been out of the vehicle while the shooter was still in sight. Helen Markham also stated that the time of the shots was 1.07pm. Which is obviously inconvenient as it wouldn't have given Oswald long enough to get there!

[Bill Brown]

17 hours ago, Marcus Fuller said:

My emphasis.

So it wasn't a second or two after the shots were fired. Otherwise he'd have been out of the vehicle while the shooter was still in sight. Helen Markham also stated that the time of the shots was 1.07pm. Which is obviously inconvenient as it wouldn't have given Oswald long enough to get there!

 

If it takes the killer say 30 seconds to get around the corner after firing the shots and Benavides waits "a second or two" after the killer goes around the corner, then Benavides is out of his truck well within one minute after the shots were fired.

 

It's kinda silly for any of us to believe that Benavides is still cowering down inside his truck while Frank Cimino, Halen Markham, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis and others are at Tippit's body.

 

[Marcus Fuller]

17 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

If it takes the killer say 30 seconds to get around the corner after firing the shots and Benavides waits "a second or two" after the killer goes around the corner, then Benavides is out of his truck well within one minute after the shots were fired.

That's my point. It means he wouldn't have been out of the truck within seconds (ie 2-3) after the shooting.