Confused & looking for opinions on JFK's brain.

[Pat Speer]

45 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Since you'd rather ask nonsense questions than deal with the evidence presented you keep on playing these silly games...

With the same orientation - skin reflected forward over face - your "jar" sits on the table with drain holes where they belong.  

 

But please, waste more times avoiding all that I've posted and continue asking questions we've answered years ago...

The hole was in the back of his head, not the side...  Humes et al DESTROYED THE HEAD INJURY EVIDENCE TO COVER FOR THE FRONTAL SHOT TO THE RIGHT TEMPLE AREA AND THE TELLTALE PATH THAT MADE THRU THE BRAIN...

IF YOU TAKE THIS DESCRIPTION AND PLOT IT ON A BRAIN/SKULL THE VISUAL YOU GET IS SHOWN BELOW...  I'M SORRY YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CHANGE IN APPEARANCE OF THE WOUNDS FROM 1PM IN DALLAS TO 8PM IN DC...  PROMOTE WHATEVER INTERPRETATION OF THE MEDICAL IMAGES YOU WANT..  THE MAN HERE IS LYING THRU HIS TEETH AS TO THE CONDITION OF JFK WHEN HE FIRST SAW HIM AND DESCRIBING THE END RESULT OF OBLITERATING THE FRONTAL SHOT EVIDENCE...  YOU CERTAINLY AINT GONNA LEARN WHAT YOU DEFINITELY DONT WANNA KNOW...  

HUMES:  We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm. (DJ: DO YOU GET THE PICTURE HERE PAT? THIS IS A 2-3 INCH DEEP TROUGH THROUGH THE TOP OF HIS HEAD WHICH HUMES CLAIMS TO RUN BACK TO FRONT)
The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex. (DJ: WHY OH WHY DID NOT A SINGLE SOUL SEE THIS AT PARKLAND PAT?  NOT A SOUL SAID A SINGLE THING ABOUT THE FRONT OF HIS SKULL LET ALONE A 3 INCH TROUGH RUNNING THE LENGTH OF HIS HEAD... AND THERE WAS NO MENTION OF CEREBELLUM AT BETHESDA DESPITE THEM TURNING WHAT WAS LEFT OF THE "BRAIN" OVER. )
The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.
The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration.
In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain.
When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution.
Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description.
When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.
This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.
There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the relative intact skull.
This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location.
This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to the President's head wound.

 

IF HIS HEAD WAS AS BAD AS HUMES CLAIMS PARKLAND WOULD HAVE SEEN IT...  IT WASN'T PAT, MANY OF THE INJURIES RECORDED HAPPENED AFTER THE FACT BETWEEN 6:30 AND 8PM...  ESPECIALLY THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF THE SKULL...  DO WHAT THAT AS YOU WILL.

 

 

You rotated the specimen jar in the close up from how it is presented by Mantik. Here is the proper orientation for the photo. Note the location of the drainage hole on the right side of the image. In Mantik's deception it is up in the air.  

Edited February 27, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Michael Crane]

Nothing gets by you guys,but there is a possibility that others might not have seen this one.

 

 

 

 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I would recommend anyone interested in this debate to read an article by Dr Riley (referenced by Pat Speer) in the Third Decade volume 9 chapter 3 (I think). It's one of the most credible articles I have read and you can see David Lifton's weak rebuttal in vol 9 chapter 5 (on Mary Ferrell).

On a side note I think Pat Speer is being disingenuous about the location of the Harper Fragment. A more honest statement would read : 'it can't be where Mantik locates it (over the EOP ridge) His statement reads as if  it can't be occipital bone, which stretches his medical credentials.

[Matthew Koch]

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Whatever you say Pat...  Everyone else must be wrong and only you are right...    
You see anyone say the word "EAR" Pat?

Dr. PERRY - As I mentioned previously in the record, I made only a cursory examination of the President's head. I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent,

Dr. McCLELLAND - As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral haft, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open.

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing.

Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.

Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.

A doctor asked me to place a pressure dressing on the head wound. This was of no use, however, because of the massive opening on the back of the head. - Pat Hutton

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.

Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't remember anything. I was just down like that. And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital,"or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him. [Reference to wounds deleted.  and we all know what she said]

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. - Dr. Clark

Dr. PETERS - Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Dr. SALYER - I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area

Maybe with a shot hitting where these men show, we'd get a hole at the right rear of his head?

. 

 

You do see where the Temporal bone extends well behind the ear as does the Parietal bone... or not so much cause it conflicts with your conclusions too much?  A person could have a hole in their Temporal bone, above and behind the mastoid process, where virtually everyone who ACTUALLY SAW THE WOUND places it...  Cerebellum does not ooze from a wound at the top of the head...

Sorry.

Bump

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

You rotated the specimen jar in the close up from how it is presented by Mantik. Here is the proper orientation for the photo. Note the location of the drainage hole on the right side of the image. In Mantik's deception it is up in the air.  

I think the conspicuous bullet-hole shaped “spot” in the EOP area works in Pat’s favor regarding the orientation of this photo. It looks like a bullet hole, the photo was described as “[wound] over entrance in posterior skull” before the description was changed, and the photo was also said to corroborate CE386, which in Pat’s orientation is basically spot-on.

[Michael Crane]

Much like believing the first hand accounts at Parkland Hospital,I'm leaning towards the first hand accounts at Bethesda with Paul O'Connor.Paul stated that the cranium was empty.

With there being a re-introduction of caskets there could have been a re-introduction of the brain.

Wasn't it in Lifton's Best Evidence book that there was speculation of a brain under some blankets/sheets on a hospital gurney around the autopsy room?

[Micah Mileto]

7 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I think the conspicuous bullet-hole shaped “spot” in the EOP area works in Pat’s favor regarding the orientation of this photo. It looks like a bullet hole, the photo was described as “[wound] over entrance in posterior skull” before the description was changed, and the photo was also said to corroborate CE386, which in Pat’s orientation is basically spot-on.

The little curve on the side of the bone looks like a side-view of the actual EOP.

[David Josephs]

..

Edited March 1, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

On 2/27/2023 at 5:27 PM, Eddy Bainbridge said:

read an article by Dr Riley

Is it not a bit disconcerting that this Dr is using the WCR medical evidence as gospel... as if they are a true representation of the wounds sustained in Dallas... and they simply are not.  So while I will read the entire thing, it is truly rendered worthless by this assumption...  too much was done to JFK between Dallas and 8pm for any intelligent person to accept this assumption...  and too much ARRB testimony has passed under the bridge for anyone to accept this ...

Edited March 1, 2023 by David Josephs

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Is it not a bit disconcerting that this Dr is using the WCR medical evidence as gospel... as if they are a true representation of the wounds sustained in Dallas... and they simply are not.  So while I will read the entire thing, it is truly rendered worthless by this assumption...  too much was done to JFK between Dallas and 8pm for any intelligent person to accept this assumption...  and too much ARRB testimony has passed under the bridge for anyone to accept this ...

As I show you above, I did not - (and once again you refuse to acknowledge anything beyond your own conclusions and simply bypass anything you don't like...  everyone else is wrong but you, right Pat?) 

Sorry Pat et al, but this is a swing and a miss related to explaining the injuries...   his title is correct as no bullet did the damage seen (with audible gasps) at his unveiling just after 8pm.  The damage was done to obscure the bullets actual path and in doing so the skull was turned into a shattered mess...  if we can't see or accept that as a fact in this case, so be it.  We truly have nothing else to discuss.

like asking how good a shot he was without having him at the window with a rifle... worthless questions and even more worthless answers..

C'mon, David. Enough with the games. You are entitled to believe whatever you want. But Mantik's orientation for the mystery photo is obviously incorrect, and quite possibly a deliberate deception. Below is a comparison of his orientation and the actual photo. Note that 1) he has used a version of the photo with the drainage hole cropped off--which is mighty convenient seeing as he places it in the air aboveJFK's chest, 2) he has let the specimen jar be concealed in darkness--which is mighty convenient because in his orientation it is titled to one side, and 3) he has totally concealed the presumed bullet hole by the EOP by adding on a bunch of draped down hair in this region. It's a con. 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Pat Speer

[David Josephs]

..

Edited March 1, 2023 by David Josephs

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Oh FFS...

The top image is mine.  I also added that I could not get it perfect since we don't know the orientation of the head or where on the table that jar was.... the hand holding the ruler can just as easily beholding JFK's head up.. and obviously the hair in the top image (your black arrow) would no longer be there once the scalp was pulled forward.

What you don't seem to get is your orientation (the image below the full body) and mine (above it) ARE THE FLIPPING SAME!  Trying to superimpose the image onto JFK laying on the table was an effort to confirm the orientation - NOT to present a perfectly accurate depiction of what the camera saw.

What does that have to do with your incorrect statement about the scalp being reflected to the left and right as opposed to front and back? or the terrible conclusion that the shot was from behind and leaves a bullet trail moving forward?

What does that have to do with even Dr. Riley confirming there had to be more damage than just a single bullet...  I realize he is suggesting multiple bullet strikes but his article does not have the benefit of the ARRB evidence which adds volumes to what occurred and what types of charades were at play.

His reliance on the WCR evidence before we learn how much BS that evidence really is, is almost as bad as your contention about no shot to the right front and what we see in the FOX images as being indicative of his Dallas injuries.

You seem to just be arguing for the sake of arguing despite us agreeing on the orientation...
Are you so inflexible that you cannot admit that the three main bones of the skull involved all exist behind and below the right ear?  Here is the diagram again...

Tell me again how a temporal  or parietal wound could NOT be behind and below the right ear... please.

 

btw, if You have a problem with Mantik, take it up with him, not me.  I'm sure you have his email, right?  I'm also sure in your mind, your qualifications as a medical expert far exceeds that of Dr. M... 

 

So who added the hair to conceal the bullet hole?

[David Josephs]

..

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by David Josephs

[Michael Crane]

Man oh man,I'm always happy when I hear from the heavy hitters.It's a great time to increase my knowledge.

I can remember seeing the big circular hole on JFK's X-rays and thinking that was the rear of the head.

With proper orientation the large hole was on the side of the head & above the ear ( I was astounded )

I remember hearing/reading about a speciman jar,but can't honestly say that I ever remember seeing it.

Thanks guys.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Pat Speer]

20 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Really?  You still pining away at a rear bullet hole?

The hair is in F7, the hole image is F8...  maybe read my post before jumping to incorrect conclusions

su·per·im·pose

1. place or lay (one thing) over another, typically so that both are still evident.

 

btw, here's your bullet hole.. how that perfect circle of black gets there IDK since all we see in the other image is a v-shaped cutout

 

in the bottom image, had you noticed what appears to be a cut across the forehead by the hairline in the death stare image?
 

Or how about some confirmation about a normal craniotomy?  Humes lying about using a saw?

Dr. Riley did not have benefit of this information when he wrote his paper, did he?

Now tell us how wrong these people are too Pat...  amazing how many have to be wrong so you can be right...

 

How can the mortician get it so wrong Pat?  "large gaping hole in back of head"

 

REED: Well, after about 20 minutes, Commander Humes took out a saw, and started to cut the forehead with the bone - with the saw. Mechanical saw. Circular, small, mechanical - almost like a cast saw, but it’s made - ... for bone.

Removal of President’s Brain:
Robinson drew dotted lines on the drawing he executed of the posterior skull which shows the wound between the ears. When asked by ARRB staff what the dotted lines represented, he said “saw cuts.” He explained that some sawing was done to remove some bone before the brain could be removed, and then went on to describe what is a normal craniotomy procedure, saying that this procedure was performed on JFK. He seemed to remember the use of a saw, and the scalp being reflected forward.

 

 

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Really?  You still pining away at a rear bullet hole?

The hair is in F7, the hole image is F8...  maybe read my post before jumping to incorrect conclusions

su·per·im·pose

1. place or lay (one thing) over another, typically so that both are still evident.

 

btw, here's your bullet hole.. how that perfect circle of black gets there IDK since all we see in the other image is a v-shaped cutout

 

in the bottom image, had you noticed what appears to be a cut across the forehead by the hairline in the death stare image?
 

Or how about some confirmation about a normal craniotomy?  Humes lying about using a saw?

Dr. Riley did not have benefit of this information when he wrote his paper, did he?

Now tell us how wrong these people are too Pat...  amazing how many have to be wrong so you can be right...

 

How can the mortician get it so wrong Pat?  "large gaping hole in back of head"

 

REED: Well, after about 20 minutes, Commander Humes took out a saw, and started to cut the forehead with the bone - with the saw. Mechanical saw. Circular, small, mechanical - almost like a cast saw, but it’s made - ... for bone.

Removal of President’s Brain:
Robinson drew dotted lines on the drawing he executed of the posterior skull which shows the wound between the ears. When asked by ARRB staff what the dotted lines represented, he said “saw cuts.” He explained that some sawing was done to remove some bone before the brain could be removed, and then went on to describe what is a normal craniotomy procedure, saying that this procedure was performed on JFK. He seemed to remember the use of a saw, and the scalp being reflected forward.

 

 

 

 

 

So okay. That's the hair in the top of the head photo. So why would you mix the two photos together? It simply makes no sense. Unless...unless... you were taking a cue from Mantik and deliberately concealing aspects of the photo that prove his orientation is nonsense.