"All went as planned, until..."

[Ron Ege]

Leslie, thanks for the reminder.

My reaction is the same as the fist time that I read it.  "Hm-m, curious that" - would not come anywhere close to describing it.

The post further contributes to the reality that quite seemingly, for about the last seven years of his life, LHO was immersed in a near "bizzaro world" of scenarios, circumstances, happenstances, coincidences, etc., interacting knowingly or otherwise, with a plethora of people having an extremely large range of unusual and/or intriguing backgrounds.

All of which fed into a nearly unimaginable and shocking climax - the depth and breadth of which is, almost after now almost six decades, still mesmerizing and so much nearly 100 percent improbable, that the odds of it occurring in the manner prescribed by the WR, beggars belief. 

To wit, that would be the JFK Assassination and then the murder of DPD Officer Tippit - by Oswald who, to believe the official government report, was nothing more than a very lucky LN.

I cannot believe that as some have proffered - that the CTs and LNs are solely responsible for a near 60 years' controversy, with the end result destined to eventually being, "Nothing to see here folks; move along, now."

I admire the research and contributions by everyone here and the energy with which they present same.  It is a most pleasurable, informative, and captivating experience.

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Kalin]

Reflecting on the subject of whatever plan was in effect, we know in part, thanks to Joseph McBride's "Into the Nightmare," that Tippit & another cop, probably Mentzel, "had been assigned by the police to hunt down Oswald in Oak Cliff." [MANHUNT p. 426] When Oswald abandoned the Marsalis bus the former was parked at the Gloco Station watching traffic from the Houston Street Viaduct, and the latter was eating lunch at Luby's Cafeteria on West Jefferson two short blocks from the TT.

It is unknown what fate was in store for Oswald if either had succeeded in hunting him down, but by 1:00 PM the plan was in a shambles. A few minutes earlier Tippit, while the Marsalis bus was stuck in traffic downtown, lost his composure and frantically drove away, arriving at Top Ten (between Luby's & the TT) where he made a phone call. At the same time Mentzel was on the phone at the cafeteria. 

Immediately both left the area, Mentzel diverted to a trivial auto accident scene and Tippit dispatched to his doom on East 10th Street. Almost under their noses Oswald arrived from his Beckley room and entered the TT, observed by Burroughs. Extraordinary triple coincidence? Hardly. By an undiscovered intervention plan A (hunt down Oswald) had been nullified and superseded by plan B (ambush Tippit).

No plan was in effect to rub out Oswald at the TT, and events relative to his apprehension were essentially spontaneous if not downright aleatory with the possible exception of being fingered by Brewer & Rowe. Both had distinct Ruby connections.

[John Cotter]

17 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Reflecting on the subject of whatever plan was in effect, we know in part, thanks to Joseph McBride's "Into the Nightmare," that Tippit & another cop, probably Mentzel, "had been assigned by the police to hunt down Oswald in Oak Cliff." [MANHUNT p. 426] When Oswald abandoned the Marsalis bus the former was parked at the Gloco Station watching traffic from the Houston Street Viaduct, and the latter was eating lunch at Luby's Cafeteria on West Jefferson two short blocks from the TT.

It is unknown what fate was in store for Oswald if either had succeeded in hunting him down, but by 1:00 PM the plan was in a shambles. A few minutes earlier Tippit, while the Marsalis bus was stuck in traffic downtown, lost his composure and frantically drove away, arriving at Top Ten (between Luby's & the TT) where he made a phone call. At the same time Mentzel was on the phone at the cafeteria. 

Immediately both left the area, Mentzel diverted to a trivial auto accident scene and Tippit dispatched to his doom on East 10th Street. Almost under their noses Oswald arrived from his Beckley room and entered the TT, observed by Burroughs. Extraordinary triple coincidence? Hardly. By an undiscovered intervention plan A (hunt down Oswald) had been nullified and superseded by plan B (ambush Tippit).

No plan was in effect to rub out Oswald at the TT, and events relative to his apprehension were essentially spontaneous if not downright aleatory with the possible exception of being fingered by Brewer & Rowe. Both had distinct Ruby connections.

The following is an extract from Double Cross, a biography of Sam Giancana by Sam and Chuck Giancana with Bettina Giancana:

“The CIA had selected White and Tippit (sent in separate cars, with Billy Seymour lying down in the backseat of Roscoe White’s vehicle to keep from being spotted)…Under the guise of self-defense and in the line of duty they were to murder the ‘lone gunman.’  However, Tippit had wavered…allowing Oswald to escape.  Thus, White had been forced to kill his partner.” (Sam Giancana and Chuck Giancana, Double Cross, 1991)

Is this a credible explanation for why the plan went awry?

Edited March 22, 2023 by John Cotter

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

The following is an extract from Double Cross, a biography of Sam Giancana by Sam and Chuck Giancana with Bettina Giancana:

“The CIA had selected White and Tippit (sent in separate cars, with Billy Seymour lying down in the backseat of Roscoe White’s vehicle to keep from being spotted)…Under the guise of self-defense and in the line of duty they were to murder the ‘lone gunman.’  However, Tippit had wavered…allowing Oswald to escape.  Thus, White had been forced to kill his partner.” (Sam Giancana and Chuck Giancana, Double Cross, 1991)

Is this a credible explanation for why the plan went awry?

No, I don't think so. At any rate I don't believe it. For one thing this version of the rubout receives little support from other accounts of the mise en scene. For another the conclusion ("White had been forced to kill his partner") does not follow from the premise ("Tippit had wavered…allowing Oswald to escape"). Tippit loses his bottle, therefore White has to blow him away -- why?

If White had the courage to shoot another cop, why didn't he summon the nerve to shoot the target instead?

Perhaps the problem is my inability to grasp how the "Double Cross" manhunt scenario was supposed to play out. Additional details might persuade me to change my mind.

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

No, I don't think so. At any rate I don't believe it. For one thing this version of the rubout receives little support from other accounts of the mise en scene. For another the conclusion ("White had been forced to kill his partner") does not follow from the premise ("Tippit had wavered…allowing Oswald to escape"). Tippit loses his bottle, therefore White has to blow him away -- why?

If White had the courage to shoot another cop, why didn't he summon the nerve to shoot the target instead?

Perhaps the problem is my inability to grasp how the "Double Cross" manhunt scenario was supposed to play out. Additional details might persuade me to change my mind.

Thanks for that response, Michael.

One reason White might have killed Tippit is that it would be fulfilling some kind of unspoken "honour among thieves" protocol whereby anyone who jeopardizes a highly important operation by reneguing on a previously agreed commitment must pay the ultimate price, pour encourager les autres. Also, anyone who so renegues might well spill the beans.

Tippit's getting cold feet about his murderous assignment might also explain the reported signs of his agitation in the time leading up to his death. 

Regarding White not shooting the target himself, that might be because he decided that a "tactical retreat" would be the best course of action in view of the plan having been disrupted, in order to gain time and space to consider the situation.

Unfortunately, I don't have any more information about how the "Double Cross" manhunt scenario was supposed to play out, because I haven't got a copy of the book. I first came across it when speed reading a borrowed copy of the book about 20 years ago, and I found the bit I quoted on the internet. As far as I can remember, there wasn't much more about it in the book itself, but I must look into it when I have the time.

The reason it caught my attention is that I've never come across any other plausible explanation for the "why" of the Tippit killing.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by John Cotter

[Michael Kalin]

21 hours ago, John Cotter said:

The reason it caught my attention is that I've never come across any other plausible explanation for the "why" of the Tippit killing.

McBride makes a strong case for Edgar Tippit's veracity concerning the manhunt, easily overcoming Myers' slipshod attempt to discredit it. If you haven't read "Into the Nightmare" it's strongly recommended to pick up a copy, kind of expensive and worth every penny. The importance of this information cannot be overestimated, disposing of many scenarios that are based on plausibility in the absence of evidence. A short list of defeated dependencies follows -- all that come to mind at this point. WR is a special case, DOA when issued, and this book drives the final nail into its coffin.

1. WR
2. Roscoe White
3. Jealous beau
4. Retribution for roughing up and/or raping a prostitute
5. Retribution for skimming dope proceeds
6. Neighborhood gang revenge (Bonnie & Clyde theory)
7. 12th & Marsalis knife fight
8. 10th & Marsalis knife fight

Unfortunately, the question of "why" remains unanswered.

[John Cotter]

13 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

McBride makes a strong case for Edgar Tippit's veracity concerning the manhunt, easily overcoming Myers' slipshod attempt to discredit it. If you haven't read "Into the Nightmare" it's strongly recommended to pick up a copy, kind of expensive and worth every penny. The importance of this information cannot be overestimated, disposing of many scenarios that are based on plausibility in the absence of evidence. A short list of defeated dependencies follows -- all that come to mind at this point. WR is a special case, DOA when issued, and this book drives the final nail into its coffin.

1. WR
2. Roscoe White
3. Jealous beau
4. Retribution for roughing up and/or raping a prostitute
5. Retribution for skimming dope proceeds
6. Neighborhood gang revenge (Bonnie & Clyde theory)
7. 12th & Marsalis knife fight
8. 10th & Marsalis knife fight

Unfortunately, the question of "why" remains unanswered.

Thanks for that, Michael.

I have to confess that I haven’t yet read McBride’s book but I hope to get around to it soon.

[Charles Blackmon]

I appreciate the insights offered here. Would be curious what other opinions there are as to for instance who was Tippit calling from the Top Ten record store? Sounds like maybe it was the other cop Mentzel who also pulled off the assignment? Why would they both pull off? 

Interesting subject that was not investigated by LEO or WC either one.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Charles Blackmon

[Michael Kalin]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

I have to confess that I haven’t yet read McBride’s book but I hope to get around to it soon.

Here's McBride's demolition of Myers' carping twaddle.
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/myers-dale-with-malice-lee-harvey-oswald-and-the-murder-of-officer-j-d-tippit

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:

I appreciate the insights offered here. Would be curious what other opinions there are as to for instance who was Tippit calling from the Top Ten record store? Sounds like maybe it was the other cop Mentzel who also pulled off the assignment? Why would they both pull off? 

Two in pursuit, two potential destinations for the pursued, two different dollar bill halves in Oswald's possession when arrested, one for primary (library) authentication and the other for alternate (TT) authentication.

Tippit, after blowing past the library, called his control from Top Ten while Mentzel called his from Luby's. Pure speculation, but nothing prevented either from using the radio to obtain regular dispatches.

[Allen Lowe]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:23 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

It's a puzzler.

I will say this: If LHO suspected he had been made the patsy...the last place he would go is somewhere he had been expected. As in a planned theater meeting. That would be a meeting with sure death. 

IMHO, after the JFKA, LHO was simply a man on the run without a plan, justifiably fearful he could gunned down at any moment. 

IMHO, the Dallas Police Department arrested LHO legitimately (as a suspect in the Tippit shooting, whether LHO did it or not), and frontline officers deserve credit for not killing LHO then and there. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

Yes, but we have no reason to believe that, at the time he fled to the theater, he knew he was a patsy. As John Martino said, he was supposedly meeting someone who would get him out of the country. If this was true he may have had some connection to the plot.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Allen Lowe

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:

Here's McBride's demolition of Myers' carping twaddle.
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/myers-dale-with-malice-lee-harvey-oswald-and-the-murder-of-officer-j-d-tippit

Thanks Michael. That's quite a demolition job on Myers' effort by McBride.

It was interesting to be reminded that Myers was a collaborator of Bugliosi, given the current thread exposing Bugliosi's shenanigans here.

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:

Two in pursuit, two potential destinations for the pursued, two different dollar bill halves in Oswald's possession when arrested, one for primary (library) authentication and the other for alternate (TT) authentication.

Tippit, after blowing past the library, called his control from Top Ten while Mentzel called his from Luby's. Pure speculation, but nothing prevented either from using the radio to obtain regular dispatches.

But why would both cops all of a sudden pull off the assignment? I could understand maybe one of them chickening out. Maybe I am missing something here.

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

Yes, but we have no reason to believe that, at the time he fled to the theater, he knew he was a patsy. As John Martino said, he was supposedly meeting someone who would get him out of the country. If this was true he may have had some connection to the plot.

Obviously, I cannot prove what I wrote. I am speculating, or conjecturing. 

I conjecture LHO's role in a flag flag op was to fire at JFK once, an intentional miss. 

He did so...but he heard subsequent gunshots, and upon quickly going downstairs, sensed hysteria. 

By then, within a minute or two, he deduced or strongly suspected he had been made a patsy---and so went home and armed himself, justifiably in fear of his life. Why else become armed? 

Likely, there was a car nearby the TSBD that LHO was supposed to take to leave the scene. LHO elected not to take the planned escape car. A death trap. 

Bereft of any practical resources, LHO took a bus and then a taxi home to his revolver. 

I am agnostic on what happened with DPD officer Tippit. But someone murdered Tippit and plenty of cops entered the neighborhood, and LHO was on the run in the neighborhood. So LHO was captured in the TT. 

As always, IMHO. 

[Allen Lowe]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:55 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

Obviously, I cannot prove what I wrote. I am speculating, or conjecturing. 

I conjecture LHO's role in a flag flag op was to fire at JFK once, an intentional miss. 

He did so...but he heard subsequent gunshots, and upon quickly going downstairs, sensed hysteria. 

By then, within a minute or two, he deduced or strongly suspected he had been made a patsy---and so went home and armed himself, justifiably in fear of his life. Why else become armed? 

Likely, there was a car nearby the TSBD that LHO was supposed to take to leave the scene. LHO elected not to take the planned escape car. A death trap. 

Bereft of any practical resources, LHO took a bus and then a taxi home to his revolver. 

I am agnostic on what happened with DPD officer Tippit. But someone murdered Tippit and plenty of cops entered the neighborhood, and LHO was on the run in the neighborhood. So LHO was captured in the TT. 

As always, IMHO. 

it's actually not certain that he was armed at the theater; are there any police evidence photos of the hand gun? We have only the Dallas cops' say-so, no evidentiary proof, as far as I know (other than the aural reports and supposed notes of what he said in the interrogation, for which there is no documented - as in recorded, or stenographer-driven - proof or confirmation. I think it is possible that he had some part in the whole thing, but there is no possibility he fired any gun; there is nothing placing him on the third floor, we know from the book by Barry Earnest that he did not descend from the sixth floor after the shooting, he was spotted in other parts of the building close to the time of the shooting. None of this adds up. The more we know, the less we know.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Allen Lowe