Oswald and the Shot at Walker: Redressing the Balance

[Sean Coleman]

On 3/24/2023 at 4:39 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Sean, Steve Roe, Mark, anyone -- where is the floodlight normally lighting that backyard that Surrey told police was inoperable the night of April 10? Is it that bright white circle in the middle of the roofline, middle of the photo? Is that bright circle a defect in the photo, sunlight reflecting off of metal in daylight, or a light that is on? 

 

If it is a defect it’s also in this pic! Well spotted Big G!

Different auto btw

Edited October 25, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Charles Blackmon]

49 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Or it could simply be the paper under the photo that is visible through the hole.

Even if it is a hole in the photo  and not another 'black blob' it looks like someone was trying to obscure information. 

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Ben, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I don't believe I fully explained what I meant by "missing by an inch or so". 

What I meant was the strike on the window sash, not the wall. As you can see another inch down, left or right, would have cleared the sash, and gone through just the screen unencumbered and maybe hitting Walker (who knows). That's what I meant. 

Regarding the height of the bullet hitting the lathe/plaster wall, Robert Surrey was questioned about that. 

Mr. JENNER. And plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed it?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. SURREY. You mean how high is the hole----
Mr. JENNER. From the floor.
Mr. SURREY. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SURREY. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.
Mr. JENNER. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?
Mr. SURREY. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4 1/2 feet. Tell the Commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "X" with a circle, and the place at which General Walker's chair was located.
Mr. SURREY. I would say 18 inches.
Mr. JENNER. He was that close?
Mr. SURREY. To the wall there; yes, sir.

Walker was 6'3, so it was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-1/2 feet or a little more where the bullet struck the wall. 

Commission Exhibit 1014 is a crude diagram made by Robert Surrey of Walker's office, showing the window the shot came through (A), his desk and where he was sitting, and then a dark mark where the bullet crashed through the wall. Of course, it's not to scale, as Surrey estimated Walker was about 18" away from the wall where the bullet hit. Seated in that position it's clear why Walker got the shrapnel wounds to his right arm as the bullet began to splinter the jacket and hit him. Mark Ulrick posted a link about reporters mentioning the wound to the arm, including a 1/2" sliver dug out near his elbow. I verified that article, and it does state those facts (April 14, 1963, Dallas Morning News).

Hopefully that gives you a better picture of how it happened. No question in my mind that this wasn't staged, and Oswald was trying to kill Walker.

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0338a.htm

Steve, do we know or can we estimate the relative height of the window to the hole in the wall? If the bullet trajectory was noticeably downward from the window to the wall, that seems to imply a difference of at least a few inches. 

If the bullet travelled diagonally from the window to the wall a distance of 8.5 feet and was deflected downward at an angle of just 2 degrees, that’s a vertical drop of about 3.5 inches. If the initial trajectory of the bullet to the window was even slightly upward in such a scenario, an undeflected bullet would have passed inches above Walker’s head. 

This is all speculative of course, and a shorter distance to the wall and smaller deflection angle would significantly reduce the magnitude of the miss, plus the “right through his head” referenced by Surrey could be referring to the middle or lower portion of Walker’s head, but still. I think we need a little bit more info here to describe how badly the shooter actually missed. 

[Mark Ulrik]

35 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Even if it is a hole in the photo  and not another 'black blob' it looks like someone was trying to obscure information.

Yes, Oswald.

Dallas Police Evidence Tampering?

Edited March 24, 2023 by Mark Ulrik
Added link

[Mark Ulrik]

55 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

If it is a defect it’s also in this pic! Well spotted Big G!

Different auto btw

Better version here: Walker Exhibit 3

[Benjamin Cole]

Well, like everything in the JFKA...some things are inexplicable. 

So, by one version, Walker was seated at his desk.

The heavy Mannlicher-Carcano slug (Western ammo) clips the bottom side of a window pane, misses Walker's head by one inch, and slams into a plaster wall 18 inches behind his head. Plaster falls on Walker's head.  

But Walker, who had combat experience, initially suspects fireworks going off outside his house. 

Only after a while, upon examining the hole in the wall, does Walker deduce  he had been shot at. 

The DPD arrives, they find the purported slug, and a detective IDs the slug as steel-jacketed, despite it being copper-colored. This is a very high-profile case at the case, the most prominent murder attempt in the city's history up to that time. Walker has been featured on the cover of national magazines (big stuff in those days). 

No one in the DPD ever re-examines the slug---very important evidence---and says, "You know, this slug is actually copper jacketed." 

The heavily cracked copper jacketing of the slug reveals it is a copper jacket, not merely copper-gilded. A steel jacketed slug, even if copper-gilded, reveals the steel-colored jacket when it cracks. 

Somehow, I have reservations about the Walker tale. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Steve Roe]

21 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Steve, do we know or can we estimate the relative height of the window to the hole in the wall? If the bullet trajectory was noticeably downward from the window to the wall, that seems to imply a difference of at least a few inches. 

If the bullet travelled diagonally from the window to the wall a distance of 8.5 feet and was deflected downward at an angle of just 2 degrees, that’s a vertical drop of about 3.5 inches. If the initial trajectory of the bullet to the window was even slightly upward in such a scenario, an undeflected bullet would have passed inches above Walker’s head. 

This is all speculative of course, and a shorter distance to the wall and smaller deflection angle would significantly reduce the magnitude of the miss, plus the “right through his head” referenced by Surrey could be referring to the middle or lower portion of Walker’s head, but still. I think we need a little bit more info here to describe how badly the shooter actually missed. 

Tom, I can only guess without precision the height of the window strike. Since there are no recorded measurements, the only thing I can offer is CE1007. In that photo, Walker identified himself as the one pointing to the window hit. If that is indeed Walker with the cigarette, in a standing position, it appears to me that height of the window strike was around 5 feet. Just a guess. Walker was 6'3" tall. 

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0335b.htm

 

[Steve Roe]

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The DPD arrives, they find the purported slug, and a detective IDs the slug as steel-jacketed, despite it being copper-colored. This is a very high-profile case at the case, the most prominent murder attempt in the city's history up to that time. Walker has been featured on the cover of national magazines (big stuff in those days). 

No one in the DPD ever re-examines the slug---very important evidence---and says, "You know, this slug is actually copper jacketed." 

The heavily cracked copper jacketing of the slug reveals it is a copper jacket, not merely copper-gilded. A steel jacketed slug, even if copper-gilded, reveals the steel-colored jacket when it cracks. 

All that doesn't matter, that slug is the one in the National Archives, with initials on it. Any speculation why the cops didn't correctly identify it as a copper jacket, is a nil point. 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

All that doesn't matter, that slug is the one in the National Archives, with initials on it. Any speculation why the cops didn't correctly identify it as a copper jacket, is a nil point. 

You do not think initials could have been applied to a false slug? 

[Steve Roe]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You do not think initials could have been applied to a false slug? 

Ben, I know you are joking, but seriously there are some "people" in this forum that might believe this "Switcheroo Theory". 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Ben, I know you are joking, but seriously there are some "people" in this forum that might believe this "Switcheroo Theory". 

No, due to treatment of evidence in the JFKA case...I am skeptical of some evidence. 

LHO's palm print on the bottom of his rifle has always been dubious. 

The pointy-head slug found at Parkland, which became CE 399 is another. 

I have reasonable doubt, which is not the same as 'I know the evidence was faked." 

The JFKA case was loaded with consequences, and required an expedient answer. 

I have reasonable doubt about some of the evidence.

I do not understand how a DPD detective, in the most high-profile murder attempt in the city's history hitherto, could say the slug from the Walker shooting was "steel jacketed." 

Maybe for a few days...but the "steel jacket" mistake was never corrected?

Did not the bullet go to a DPD crime lab? And no one ever noticed, "Hey, this is really a copper-jacketed bullet?" 

Most cops, and certainly most detectives, are very, very aware of ammo and guns. Stock in trade. Detectives are usually smart guys, and have to graduate from ordinary police work. And most cops are above average in intelligence to begin with. 

They full well know there are copper-gilded steel-jacketed bullets, and also copper-jacketed bullets. 

And so, in this very high-profile Walker case...the DPD thought the bullet was steel-jacketed (I assume, based on very cursory examination) and that was that? 

That strains credulity. No one ever said, "Well, let's look at the bullet closely and see if we can determine its make or bore" ?

I have reasonable doubts the bullet from the Walker house was the bullet the FBI crime lab looked at. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

No, due to treatment of evidence in the JFKA case...I am skeptical of some evidence. 

LHO's palm print on the bottom of his rifle has always been dubious. 

The pointy-head slug found at Parkland, which became CE 399 is another. 

I have reasonable doubt, which is not the same as 'I know the evidence was faked." 

The JFKA case was loaded with consequences, and required an expedient answer. 

I have reasonable doubt about some of the evidence.

I do not understand how a DPD detective, in the most high-profile murder attempt in the city's history hitherto, could say the slug from the Walker shooting was "steel jacketed." 

Maybe for a few days...but the "steel jacket" mistake was never corrected?

Did not the bullet go to a DPD crime lab? And no one ever noticed, "Hey, this is really a copper-jacketed bullet?" 

Most cops, and certainly most detectives, are very, very aware of ammo and guns. Stock in trade. Detectives are usually smart guys, and have to graduate from ordinary police work. And most cops are above average in intelligence to begin with. 

They full well know there are copper-gilded steel-jacketed bullets, and also copper-jacketed bullets. 

And so, in this very high-profile Walker case...the DPD thought the bullet was steel-jacketed (I assume, based on very cursory examination) and that was that? 

That strains credulity. No one ever said, "Well, let's look at the bullet closely and see if we can determine its make or bore" ?

I have reasonable doubts the bullet from the Walker house was the bullet the FBI crime lab looked at. 

It’s a fair point. For the bullet to have been switched, it’s not like the engineers of such a switcheroo would necessarily have been too stupid to figure out that it might be a good idea to replicate the chain of evidence markings, which seems to be the crux of the argument that the markings automatically prove that the bullet wasn’t switched. 

We have the steel jacket issue, early reports of a .30-06 or 30 cal bullet, inconclusive ballistics, and Walker himself claiming the bullet was switched, so it’s not exactly a slam dunk that everything was on the up and up here. That’s all hardly proof of fabricated evidence, but the official story of the Walker shooting doesn’t exactly rise to the level of proof either, especially with its almost exclusive reliance on a witness with major credibility problems. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

45 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

It’s a fair point. For the bullet to have been switched, it’s not like the engineers of such a switcheroo would necessarily have been too stupid to figure out that it might be a good idea to replicate the chain of evidence markings, which seems to be the crux of the argument that the markings automatically prove that the bullet wasn’t switched. 

We have the steel jacket issue, early reports of a .30-06 or 30 cal bullet, inconclusive ballistics, and Walker himself claiming the bullet was switched, so it’s not exactly a slam dunk that everything was on the up and up here. That’s all hardly proof of fabricated evidence, but the official story of the Walker shooting doesn’t exactly rise to the level of proof either, especially with its almost exclusive reliance on a witness with major credibility problems. 

Right.

In all fairness, I think Walker's letter to the HSCA was in error, so to speak. 

For whatever reason, the HSCA, during hearings, broadcast some images of unfired steel-jacketed bullets, which were not copper-gilded.

It looked as though the HSCA was saying, "See, these are steel-jacketed bullets, like the one found in Walker's home." 

Walker then fired off a letter to the effect the bullet found in his home was badly mangled etc. 

All that said, it would have been easy to fire a Western ammo Mannlicher Carcano bullet into some obstruction, put bogus initials on it, and sub it in place of the bona fide bullet. 

We are talking about a JFKA case in which Katzenbach, Hoover and LBJ all agreed the official narrative had to be a lone, loser gunman, with no confederates. 

Add on: The Walker bullet in evidence (CE573) is indeed badly mangled--so badly, that the jacketing was ripped wide open in places.

The badly ripped hull, or shell, obviously reveals the bullet to be copper-jacketed, not steel-jacketed with copper gilding.

How any competent person, let alone a police detective, could look at CE573 and not readily know it was copper-jacketed, is beyond me. 

It remains an inexplicable part of the JFKA record. 

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1228.html 

photo of CE 573 in link. This is a copper-jacketed bullet, and obviously so. 

The DPD detective looked...at what, exactly? 

[Steve Roe]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

For whatever reason, the HSCA, during hearings, broadcast some images of unfired steel-jacketed bullets, which were not copper-gilded.

Ben, so you have seen the actual HSCA tapes of Blakey holding up a steel-jacketed bullet? 

That's great, I've been on the hunt for that old video. Can you link me and everyone here to that video of Blakey holding the steel jacketed bullet?

[James DiEugenio]

A long time ago, like decades, I stopped buying into the WC version of events.

Bullets do not change size and hue, and Kirk Coleman was the best witness.

I am really surprised that anyone supports the official version of the Walker shooting today. Or trusts Surrey.

Jerry McKnight did a  nice job on this subject in his book Breach Of Trust. (pp. 48-59)

I mean even Wesley L had problems with Marina on this one.  If Oswald did not drive, how did he get his rifle to the scene?

And how did he get it back? Does anyone buy Marina's story on that one?  Does anyone even want to repeat it?