The Paine Garage Search on Saturday: What the Fudge-and-Cookies Is Going on Here ?

[Gil Jesus]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

It might not be relevant, but context is everything. By 1963, the American public, of all stripes, had been inundated with stories and movies depicting good Quakers who would not harm a fly. It makes sense to me that whatever normal instincts the DPD had about the Paines--that they shouldn't be trusted--were put into the deep freeze once they realized they were Quakers. I mean, these were freakin' Quakers, for crying out loud. 

I had a similar response in my personal life. When my dad died in a different state, I had to go up and sort through his stuff, etc. At the time he was working as a property manager for a religious couple--I think Mennonites. In any event, they had his keys and could have stolen all sorts of stuff--cash, jewelry, electronics, etc. But they were super nice. And religious. So it never crossed my mind. 

 

Pat, FWIW, remember Richard Nixon was a Quaker as well.

[James DiEugenio]

10 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

They were grilled plenty .. and in nearly 60 years, there has never been any concrete evidence pointing toward them being involved in a conspiracy, despite what most people on this forum apparently believe.

One of the funniest comments I have read in awhile.

That was some grilling by the WC was it not?

That was really something by the HSCA, whew.

And man the ARRB, that was the 3rd degree. 😜

[Denny Zartman]

Ruth Paine cold-called Roy Truly and got Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the TSBD. Nothing can ever change that fact.

CIA's J. Walton Moore asked George de Mohrenschildt to meet Oswald. George de Mohrenschildt said he would never have met Oswald in a million years had Moore not sanctioned it. George de Mohrenschildt convinces Oswald to move to Dallas and introduces him to Ruth Paine. Paine takes in the alleged assassin's wife, houses the alleged murder weapon under her roof, and gets the alleged assassin his job at the scene of the crime. You take CIA's Moore, CIA connected de Mohrenschildt, CIA connected Ruth Paine, add them together and the result is Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas working at the TSBD - the scene of the crime. And people act like this is some sort of mystery?

I know this whole discussion is a pasttime for LN's, but it's getting tiresome for me. Do you not all have eyes? Does any LN look at the pictures of Oswald in Russia, hanging out grinning and partying with folks his age and ever take one minute to wonder why, back in the USA, Oswald had only one identifiable friend: a White Russian with CIA connections and who was two decades his senior?

[John Cotter]

3 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Ruth Paine cold-called Roy Truly and got Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the TSBD. Nothing can ever change that fact.

CIA's J. Walton Moore asked George de Mohrenschildt to meet Oswald. George de Mohrenschildt said he would never have met Oswald in a million years had Moore not sanctioned it. George de Mohrenschildt convinces Oswald to move to Dallas and introduces him to Ruth Paine. Paine takes in the alleged assassin's wife, houses the alleged murder weapon under her roof, and gets the alleged assassin his job at the scene of the crime. You take CIA's Moore, CIA connected de Mohrenschildt, CIA connected Ruth Paine, add them together and the result is Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas working at the TSBD - the scene of the crime. And people act like this is some sort of mystery?

I know this whole discussion is a pasttime for LN's, but it's getting tiresome for me. Do you not all have eyes? Does any LN look at the pictures of Oswald in Russia, hanging out grinning and partying with folks his age and ever take one minute to wonder why, back in the USA, Oswald had only one identifiable friend: a White Russian with CIA connections and who was two decades his senior?

Well said.

[Gil Jesus]

13 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Ruth Paine cold-called Roy Truly and got Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the TSBD. Nothing can ever change that fact.

CIA's J. Walton Moore asked George de Mohrenschildt to meet Oswald. George de Mohrenschildt said he would never have met Oswald in a million years had Moore not sanctioned it. George de Mohrenschildt convinces Oswald to move to Dallas and introduces him to Ruth Paine. Paine takes in the alleged assassin's wife, houses the alleged murder weapon under her roof, and gets the alleged assassin his job at the scene of the crime. You take CIA's Moore, CIA connected de Mohrenschildt, CIA connected Ruth Paine, add them together and the result is Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas working at the TSBD - the scene of the crime. And people act like this is some sort of mystery?

 

Stop it Denny, you're getting too close. :-)

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Greg Doudna]

11 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Ruth Paine cold-called Roy Truly and got Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the TSBD. Nothing can ever change that fact.

I assume you do not mean this in a complimentary or praiseworthy sense, in helping someone poor with a pregnant wife who desperately needs a job and wants to work but has not yet found a job. With no idea the president would be assassinated from that building a few weeks later, and horrified at that event, which she could not possibly have foreseen.

No, the idea is that an essential advance part of the conspiracy was that Oswald be employed in the TSBD building. 

Denny, are you claiming that a successful planned-in-advance conspiracy, planned to accomplish this particular supposed critical and pivotal part of the conspiracy—for it to work—of Oswald becoming employed there—… by deciding to have a housewife in Irving pick up the phone and cold-call the supervisor of TSBD, who never heard of this woman before, and rely on her cold-call persuasive skills to ensure success, as the planned reliable mechanism to ensure that critical step was accomplished? 

Is that what you really think?(Committee planning meeting of conspirators: “we’ll have Ruth Paine call up cold and have him hired there that way” “but—but, boss, what if they say they’re not hiring? or to come in and apply and they’ll keep it on file blah blah blah? Or what if they about his military discharge and refuse him on those grounds as has happened to him with other employers before?” “Please. You don’t know how skilled our Ruth Paine is at cold-calling persuasiveness in single phone calls to business executives who never heard of her. Why, she went through our agency’s top-secret Cold-Call Persuasion Course—no business executive getting a cold phone call from her will say no, you can rely on that. Now—what are our status reports on the forty-point coverup plan in place now that we’ve got it planned how Oswald will be placed and all else lined up…?”

Do you believe having a housewife in Irving making a cold call is a believable advance plan by conspirators to accomplish that?

Everyone else I have seen asked this question who has answered, always answers by saying one or more others must have been involved too, not just the Ruth Paine cold calling on its own, in getting Oswald placed there. What about you, and who else do you think? Linnie Mae Randle? Buell Wesley Frazier? Roy Truly? Lee Harvey Oswald? 

Without invoking additional actors in the supposed advance plot to ensure Oswald is hired, a cold call from an unknown housewife in Irving is not a reliable plan. it suffers from plausibility issues.

But you see, the moment you start invoking or supposing involvement of other persons, second or third actors, if you think about it, now Ruth Paine is no longer essential or needed to get Oswald placed there in the first place. And what would follow would be the unthinkable for many CT’s—that Ruth’s phone call asking if there was possibly an opening for a desperately needed job for Marina’s husband might after all be reasonably interpreted as it would be if it were any other human being under any other circumstances: a simple act of humans helping one another in this world. “No good deed goes unpunished”. 

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Ruth’s phone call asking if there was possibly an opening for a desperately needed job for Marina’s husband might after all be reasonably interpreted as it would be if it were any other human being under any other circumstances: a simple act of humans helping one another in this world. “No good deed goes unpunished”. 

Ruth Paine was fine human being, especially after Oswald was arrested. She really helped him out didn't she ?

[Jonathan Cohen]

24 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ruth Paine was fine human being, especially after Oswald was arrested. She really helped him out didn't she ?

Yes, she absolutely did help him and his family. In fact, she went above and beyond, considering the circumstances. No amount of your evidence-free conspiracy theories will change that.

[Greg Doudna]

6 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ruth Paine was fine human being, especially after Oswald was arrested. She really helped him out didn't she ?

Gil she told Michael Paine late Fri night about Marguerite’s concern for Oswald having legal representation and Michael called the Dallas ACLU (I think it was) Saturday morning and was told they were on it, according to Michael.

She made one attempt late Sat at Oswald’s request to reach Abt in New York and then Oswald was dead. She tried to support Marina that weekend. She opened up her house to Marguerite, Lee’s mother, fri night. What was it her responsibility to do in Lee’ predicament that weekend, with her own life and house overturned, property hauled off, two children to care for, and above all concern for Marina, that you use the dripping sarcasm and scorn on her?

Do you ever consider applying innocent until proven guilty to Ruth Paine? 

[Leslie Sharp]

51 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ruth Paine was fine human being, especially after Oswald was arrested. She really helped him out didn't she ?

The early obsession of Ruth's genealogy, and that of Michael, may have served a purpose.  Ties to Dulles alone were sensational.  But no one has ever nailed down precisely who was "running" the Paines, if indeed anyone was. Was Allen calling her daily? Did she have time in her busy schedule as mother and part-time teacher to give this operation the time it required in the weeks leading to 11.22.  Considering her demeanor, did she have the temperament?  Was her father cabling her from his post in SA? Was Henry Crown sending corporate telexes to Michale at GD?  Surely at this juncture, 60 years later, it behoves us to identify the pure logistics required.  

Coup in Dallas picks up with the expert research of Gallagher and Simpich establishing the unusual activity of SA Bard Odum related to both Oswald and the Paines who were on first name basis with 'Hart'.  Doing so insisted to us that Hoover was privy on some level, perhaps not yet on board, but certainly not shutting Bard down. 

Adding to the equation is Everett Glover who appears in records of the project manager Pierre Lafitte. How could Lafitte know Glover's name prior to revelations that it was Glover who introduced Ruth to Lee and Marina?

Edited March 27, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Do you ever consider applying innocent until proven guilty to Ruth Paine?

In an ordinary world with a well functioning law enforcement and judiciary, we could rely on this to take those to task who are guilty and exonerate those who are much maligned unjustly. 
 

I think in the JFKA we may have to reconcile the possibility that the norms we have become accustomed to do not suffice when institutional corruption exists. Whether that be on the level of the Dallas PD or the US government itself. 
 

As a side note; we do live in an era of trial by media. I don’t think that is a good thing at all. 

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Do you ever consider applying innocent until proven guilty to Ruth Paine? 

Ruth Paine certainly didn't apply the presumption of innocence principle to Oswald when he was dead. Her badmouthing of him then was despicable and it destroys her self-presentation as a kind and virtuous person.

To do that to a murdered man was inexcusable. What made it even worse is that it effectively condoned the actions of the Dallas police in their facilitating Oswald's murder.

In view of Ruth Paine's behaviour in these respects alone, she cannot be considered innocent.

[Bob Ness]

A lot of what the DPD did was keystone kops and I think that is what's at issue. Whether any conclusions can be drawn is debatable (or not) but the bottom line is it's a part of the litany of established facts that demonstrate rank police behavior with the failure to defend Oswald indisputable and the top of the list.

Clown show.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Ruth Paine certainly didn't apply the presumption of innocence principle to Oswald when he was dead. Her badmouthing of him then was despicable and it destroys her self-presentation as a kind and virtuous person.

To do that to a murdered man was inexcusable. What made it even worse is that it effectively condoned the actions of the Dallas police in their facilitating Oswald's murder.

In view of Ruth Paine's behaviour in these respects alone, she cannot be considered innocent.

This is one of the most ridiculous “takes” I’ve heard in a long time, but it’s not surprising considering the source.

[John Cotter]

4 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is one of the most ridiculous “takes” I’ve heard in a long time, but it’s not surprising considering the source.

Saying something is ridiculous is not a logical rebuttal. Neither is an ad hominem attack.

Thanks for the validation.