Huge Ruth Paine news or not?

[Benjamin Cole]

If Paine says the March notation was put on after the JFKA, and there is no way of disproving that...then this likely a dead end. 

That does not mean Paine is, or is not, telling the truth. 

It just means there is no compelling evidence she was lying about this specific matter.  

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If Paine says the March notation was put on after the JFKA, and there is no way of disproving that...then this likely a dead end. 

That does not mean Paine is, or is not, telling the truth. 

It just means there is no compelling evidence she was lying about this specific matter.  

It also has to be wondered the plausibility of the idea of a top-secret involvement of pacifist Ruth Paine in Oswald's rifle, why she would put notes to that top-secret information on her kitchen calendar bulletin board to remind herself so she wouldn't forget the secrets she was not supposed to reveal. Why not post it right there in the calendar on the kitchen wall? Makes perfect sense! Not very good tradecraft? Does anyone seriously still think that? 

DiEugenio who disparages a researcher who is producing research on the case--me--by a gratuitous insult and name-calling--will cast suspicion on Ruth Paine without putting any cards on the table as to what he is actually accusing. The innuendo ... the wink, the sarcasm, the arched eyebrow, the mocking ... It is a way of having it both ways. Insinuate dark suspicions, the witch allegation, but deny that anything was actually accused if called out on it. 

Some people have spent lifetimes involved in JFK assassination study without having any concrete evidence-grounded proposal to solve the case other than suspicion of the Agency or other malevolent unseen dark forces at large. The lack of solution in itself is not to be faulted--to admit one doesn't know when one doesn't. But knowing that something horribly wrong happened to America in that assassination and not knowing exactly who, what or how it went down, innocent people like Clay Shaw and Ruth Paine become targets ... neither of whom had anything to do with killing Kennedy or knowledge of who did ... ruining reputations of innocent people, without conscience, without remorse ... age-old scapegoat theory wired into human tribalism at work ... in Ruth Paine's case for the crime of having believed the Warren Commission's findings and having tried to help that investigation by truthful testimony.

When the elephant in the room is the assassination may have a solution at hand, means, motive, opportunity, and confessions--the Marcello-Trafficante-Hoffa-did-it angle. If only there had been, say, some courageous local prosecutor in New Orleans willing to investigate and expose how Marcello controlled the local pols and law enforcement in New Orleans with a reach all the way to Dallas ... to have investigated Marcello's relationships to Ruby and Oswald and public officials.

Three articles:

"Murdered by the Mob?", Robert Blakey (1993), https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/11/07/murdered-by-the-mob/590c014a-a3b4-4f6d-b5a2-189249cd5663/ 

"Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of President Kennedy", Don Fulsom (2009), http://crimemagazine.com/carlos-marcello-and-assassination-president-kennedy 

"John F. Kennedy's Vision of Peace", Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (2013), https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-109020/  

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

It also has to be wondered the plausibility of the idea of a top-secret involvement of pacifist Ruth Paine in Oswald's rifle, why she would put notes to that top-secret information on her kitchen calendar bulletin board to remind herself so she wouldn't forget the secrets she was not supposed to reveal. Why not post it right there in the calendar on the kitchen wall? Makes perfect sense! Not very good tradecraft? Does anyone seriously still think that?

 

She had no idea what rifle the feds were talking about and was using her calendar to figure it out.

Just a little speculation to show that Doudna's mocking of the "Ruth was a CIA asset" hypothesis is silly.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

It also has to be wondered the plausibility of the idea of a top-secret involvement of pacifist Ruth Paine in Oswald's rifle, why she would put notes to that top-secret information on her kitchen calendar bulletin board to remind herself so she wouldn't forget the secrets she was not supposed to reveal. Why not post it right there in the calendar on the kitchen wall? Makes perfect sense! Not very good tradecraft? Does anyone seriously still think that? 

DiEugenio who disparages a researcher who is producing research on the case--me--by a gratuitous insult and name-calling--will cast suspicion on Ruth Paine without putting any cards on the table as to what he is actually accusing. The innuendo ... the wink, the sarcasm, the arched eyebrow, the mocking ... It is a way of having it both ways. Insinuate dark suspicions, the witch allegation, but deny that anything was actually accused if called out on it. 

Some people have spent lifetimes involved in JFK assassination study without having any concrete evidence-grounded proposal to solve the case other than suspicion of the Agency or other malevolent unseen dark forces at large. The lack of solution in itself is not to be faulted--to admit one doesn't know when one doesn't. But knowing that something horribly wrong happened to America in that assassination and not knowing exactly who, what or how it went down, innocent people like Clay Shaw and Ruth Paine become targets ... neither of whom had anything to do with killing Kennedy or knowledge of who did ... ruining reputations of innocent people, without conscience, without remorse ... age-old scapegoat theory wired into human tribalism at work ... in Ruth Paine's case for the crime of having believed the Warren Commission's findings and having tried to help that investigation by truthful testimony.

When the elephant in the room is the assassination may have a solution at hand, means, motive, opportunity, and confessions--the Marcello-Trafficante-Hoffa-did-it angle. If only there had been, say, some courageous local prosecutor in New Orleans willing to investigate and expose how Marcello controlled the local pols and law enforcement in New Orleans with a reach all the way to Dallas ... to have investigated Marcello's relationships to Ruby and Oswald and public officials.

Three articles:

"Murdered by the Mob?", Robert Blakey (1993), https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/11/07/murdered-by-the-mob/590c014a-a3b4-4f6d-b5a2-189249cd5663/ 

"Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of President Kennedy", Don Fulsom (2009), http://crimemagazine.com/carlos-marcello-and-assassination-president-kennedy 

"John F. Kennedy's Vision of Peace", Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (2013), https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-109020/  

Thank you for your comments, although I always advise civility towards other members, even if you believe the civility is not returned. 

"The Mob did it," angle has merit, but does not explain the whole pre-JFKA LHO biography build, nor the federal government cover-up afterwards. Could the Mob expedite LHO's return to the US after defecting to Russia? Trail LHO down to Mexico City and impersonate him? Suffocate the JFK autopsy? 

"The Mob did it" does not explain the tenacity with which the CIA and President Biden will not release records regarding Joannides' service in New Orleans in 1963---60 years after the fact. 

It has been revealed Clay Shaw was, in fact, a CIA asset and perjured himself on the stand in New Orleans. I happen to think the actual witting participants in the JFKA was a very small number---yet Shaw's role may have been as an unwitting handler in New Orleans. Helping to construct the LHO legend, ro example.

My guess is the Mob was contracted on the LHO assassination. 

There are some gunsels who worked for both mobsters and the CIA, and Eladio Del Valle and Hermininio Diaz come to mind, both dead by 1967. Were they in Dallas in 11/22? 

As always, just IMHO....

I am agnostic on the Paines. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Those markings on Ruth Paine's calendar may have a mundane explanation:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t112p25-ruth-paine-s-calendar#42052

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Those markings on Ruth Paine's calendar may have a mundane explanation:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t112p25-ruth-paine-s-calendar#42052

Why couldn’t Ruth Paine with her “steel trap mind” remember that innocent “mundane” explanation when testifying to the WC, instead of purportedly concocting a false convoluted story about the calendar notes?

Edited May 21, 2023 by John Cotter

[Steve Thomas]

 

 

Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address in the beginning of January, 1963 and that he had been cleaning the rifle that same day.

CD 735 page 441

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=450&tab=page

At the bottom of CD 735, there is the handwritten notation “CE 1156”.

This interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Anatole Buguslav and Wallace Heitman.

 

(CE 1156 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII p. 197).

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227&tab=page

includes this information in an interview the FBI conducted of Marina on January 29 1964 and dated February 1, 1964.

This January 29^th interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Richard Wiehl and Wallace Heitman.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

But

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

On February 18, 1964 the FBI agents went back to Marina at the offices of her attorney, and said, “Uh, we’ve got a problem. You told us yesterday that you saw Lee cleaning his rifle in January, but he didn’t buy it until March”.

On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken on February 17^th about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had really taken place in March, 1963.

That suggests three possibilities:

a) she was genuinely mistaken about the date; or,

b) the FBI caught her in a lie and confronted her; or,

c) that since her statement of the 17^th was already part of the official record, the FBI went back to her and helped her coordinate her story to set the record straight.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited June 15, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jonathan Cohen]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Those markings on Ruth Paine's calendar may have a mundane explanation:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t112p25-ruth-paine-s-calendar#42052

Wait, Jeremy.. don't you realize that over here on ye olde Education Forum, there is no such thing as "a mundane explanation" ?

[James DiEugenio]

Only if one ignores what Steve just wrote.

And Jonathan likes to ignore a lot of stuff.

[Jonathan Cohen]

29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Only if one ignores what Steve just wrote.

And Jonathan likes to ignore a lot of stuff.

Oh really? What exactly am I ignoring in this case? Steve is talking about a mistake (or lie?) in Marina's testimony - what's so revolutionary about that? And why are you incapable of even considering the possibility that Ruth's notation had to do with Marina's due date and not some sinister conspiracy?

[James DiEugenio]

Steve Thomas is one of the best and most credible posters on this site.  This is what he just wrote in summary:

That suggests three possibilities:

a) she was genuinely mistaken about the date; or,

b) the FBI caught her in a lie and confronted her; or,

c) that since her statement of the 17^th was already part of the official record, the FBI went back to her and helped her coordinate her story to set the record straight.

So now Jonathan goes to ROKC to defend Ruthie, somehow missing the fact that Greg Parker is one of her chief, and most effective, accusers.  Bill Hootkins for starters.

Edited May 21, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Vince Palamara is there a RIF number for Shanklin memo and where is the blue page titled Marina from? Not much info in your post.  

[Steve Thomas]

I have found 4 instances of Marina Oswald either testifying on insinuating that the Oswalds were living on Neely St. in January, 1963.

(1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth)
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.

 

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

 

(2) Two weeks later, Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address in the beginning of January, 1963 and that he had been cleaning the rifle that same day.

CD 735 page 441

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11133#relPageId=450&tab=page

At the bottom of CD 735, there is the handwritten notation “CE 1156”.

This interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Anatole Buguslav and Wallace Heitman.

 

(CE 1156 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII p. 197).

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227&tab=page

includes this information in an interview the FBI conducted of Marina on January 29 1964 and dated February 1, 1964.

This January 29^th interview was conducted by FBI Agents, Richard Wiehl and Wallace Heitman.

 

(3) Marina told the WC that she first met Ruth Paine at a party in January, but the party didn’t take place until February 22, 1963

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.

(4) Here is the translation of CE993, Marina's Narrative of life with Lee:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page

I started reading this narrative, and was immediately struck by how similar it is in linguistic style to Oswald's Daily Diary. Read his entry for October 21st, when he attempts "suicide" to the sound of violins playing. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf

One other thing struck me. On pp. 626-627, she writes of moving to Neely St. after New Years, and then writes of meeting Ruth Paine.

Officially, she met Ruth on February 22nd, prior to her Neely St. move.

Is Marina once again putting herself on Neely St. in January, when they didn't actually move there until March?

Mr. JENNER - Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER - I will get to that in a moment.

 

Mr. JENNER - You met Marina for the first time when.
Mrs. PAINE - I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

 

WC testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

 

However, on March 3, 1964 Marina told FBI Agents, Wallace Heitman and Anatoly Boguslav that not only had she seen Oswald take the rifle out of the apartment in March, 1963, but that she had gone with him! This is CE 1838.

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=549&tab=page

March 3, 1964

 

If Marina never saw Oswald take the rifle from the apartment, how could she re-trace for the FBI the route he used?

 

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased.

She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March.

It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside.

She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back, but traced for the FBI the route that he took.

Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime?

She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up?

When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it.

I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle, several times.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited May 22, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Michael Griffith]

I find it curious that Ruth Paine studied Russian at Middlebury College in Vermont. Middlebury was not cheap. For many decades, some government agencies have been sending people there for foreign language study, since Middlebury offers a top-notch immersion program. When I was in the Army, I was once slated to attend a Hebrew course at Middlebury in the early '90s, but my trip was cancelled because my unit ran short on training funds. 

I'd be curious to know how Ruth Paine was able to pay for a Russian course at Middlebury. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Former WC staff attorney Burt Griffin told me several years ago that the WC doubted Marina's veracity so they used Ruth Paine to box in Marina. He said they interviewed Paine and then used Paine's testimony to force Marina to stay with the story as told by Paine.  Marina was afraid of being deported. This was not only reported in a NYT article from November 1964 but you can see these concerns intimated in the beginning of her initial testimony in Feb. 1964. It begins with her explaining how she has cooperated and if memory serves me, also how she was now going to tell the truth......