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Horace Busby, Waggoner Carr

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Good Day.... On what date before 29NOV63 did LBJ ask his longtime adviser HORACE BUSBY to assign Texas attorney general WAGGONER CARR to take command of the assassination investigation?

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly





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"In contrast to the testimony of the witnesses who heard and observed shots fired from the Depository, the Commission’s investigation has disclosed no credible evidence that any shots were fired from anywhere else."

- warrenatti canard

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Good Day.... On what date before 29NOV63 did LBJ ask his longtime adviser HORACE BUSBY to assign Texas attorney general WAGGONER CARR to take command of the assassination investigation?

Don Roberdeau


You likely already know this, but the following is excerpted from Horace Busby's unpublished [perhaps unfinished] memoirs:


I had known Lyndon Baines Johnson for 16 years: as congressman, senator, majority leader and vice-president. Over that span, I had liked him and disliked him; respected him and disrespected him; thought his public performances, at times, to be magnificent and, at other times, thought his private preoccupations to be monumentally boring. I had campaigned with him, laughed with him, worried with him, shared with him moments of great consequence and complete unimportance. I knew him better than I wanted to know any man. But on the night of 22nd November 1963, waiting for him at The Elms, I was not waiting for any man I had known; I was waiting for the president of the United States.

The aura of the office preceded him. The handsome rooms of The Elms were hushed. The entryway and front hall remained conspicuously empty; when people crossed through it, they hurried their steps, not wanting to be in sight when he opened the door; yet whenever the door opened to admit a secret service agent or a telephone installer, faces appeared peeking around door frames to see if the sound meant he had come. Mary V and I sat in the sun room, adjacent to the front hall; here we had last sat with him on the Sunday night, 12 days earlier, before he left for Texas. J Willis Hurst of Atlanta, the brilliant young heart specialist who had saved the man's life after the heart attack in 1955, sat with us. Nothing seemed appropriate to say. In the silence, a sort of dread grew of the meeting that was to come.

But then it came and the meeting was easy. Mrs Johnson hurried down the curving stairway to greet him as he entered; they embraced and talked quietly for a moment. At the five doorways opening into the hall, I counted 16 faces, including my own, watching. The Johnsons were not just people any more.

He glanced around impatiently, seeing the faces; I knew what he must be thinking. Quickly, with long strides, he stepped across the hall to the sun room, seeking his solitude. Mary V gave him a kiss. Hurst ran a practised eye over his features and seemed to be relieved. Lyndon Johnson was more controlled than calm. His words of greeting were barely audible. But as he bent to sit in his usual chair, he stood erect again looking at the wall above the single television set. Hanging there was a portrait of Speaker Sam Rayburn, who had died just two years before. The old man's pupil raised his hand in a friendly salute. "How I wish you were here," he said.

"Turn on the television," he said to me. "I guess I am the only person in the United States who doesn't know what has happened today."

A report came in from Dallas: an indictment was being drawn there against Lee Harvey Oswald, so the report went, that the accused assassin had acted as part of a communist conspiracy. Much of the language was inflammatory. Lyndon Johnson sat forward in his chair. "No," he said, "we must not have that. We must not start making accusations without evidence. It could tear this country apart." He asked me then to call Waggoner Carr, the attorney general of Texas. "Tell him the country needs the most responsible, the most thorough investigation, and I seem to remember that there is some law in Texas permitting the attorney general to take over in a situation like this." Carr, when I reached him, confirmed that he did have powers to establish a "court of inquiry," and he agreed to proceed at once. It was a reminder that even the murder of a president was not a federal offence; jurisdiction rested with local and state authorities.


At the risk of contradicting Busby, it seems to me that the assassination would have been treated as a simple homicide case, and that Oswald would have been put on trial, in the ordinary course of events. If Busby contacted Carr on Johnson's behalf, I would have expected that to take place after Oswald's murder, at which point the legal process was sufficiently vague that it required an alternate course.

Hope this helps....

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....Good Day Robert.... aniTHANKSpopup.gif Very Much.

I had never read that before.

So let us add some additional considerations and perspective....

....The evening of 22NOV63, somewhere around 10:00 pm, Dallas time, the DPD has received a phone call(s) from washDC requesting (demanding?) that all physical evidence be sent to washDC.

....Lt. DAY is ordered to stop, and immediately stops in the middle of forensically processing the rifle in evidence, and starts to prepare it, and the other physical evidence, for shipment to washDC....

....According to BUSBY, sometime around the time OSWALD was charged with murdering President KENNEDY "in the furtherance of a Communist conspiracy," BUSBY and LBJ hear from tv about OSWALD being DPD-indicted.

....OSWALD was formally charged at about 11:36 pm, Dallas time....

....So, it seems (utilizing BUSBY's timeline recall of events) that before OSWALD was even indicted (and while the physical evidence was being forensically processed), washDC ("washDC" translation: HOOVER; who was LBJ's longtime friend/crony and washDC neighbor) was requesting (demanding?) that the physical evidence be sent to washDC.

....Does BUSBY detail that the mafia-connected-LBJ called the mafia-blackmailable-HOOVER, and/or, HOOVER calling LBJ immediately after the OSWALD 11:36 pm Dallas time/12:36 am washDC time indictment was announced on tv?

(expanding on that theme: after LBJ arrived back in washDC just when, exactly, were the exact times that LBJ and HOOVER communicated, at all, between 11-22 and 11-29? Did LBJ communicate with HOOVER on the flight from Dallas? Etc. etc.? A timeline of the LBJ/HOOVER communications that week would be interesting)

....and, of course, we have HOSTY telling us in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" that washDC (translation: LBJ & HOOVER) freaked-out over the DPD charging OSWALD with murder "in the furtherance of a Communist conspiracy" and that night washDC notified the DPD they did not like that, which is precisely how BUSBY descibes LBJ as reacting to hearing the "Communist conspiracy" charge-addendum.

....Within the next week LBJ uses the Communist conspiracy/30-million lives angle-of-fear to persuade the reluctant WARREN to serve his country again by heading up the commission LBJ originally wanted CARR to head up. (CARR, ultimately, does produce a written report by Texas, of which, if I recall correctly, only 250-300 copies were ever printed--and of course CARR's Texas canard espoused the "lone nut" theory)

....In his excellent "Deep Politics" book, PETER DALE SCOTT elaborates on the use of the Communist conspiracy/nuclear war/30-million lives angle-of-fear that perpetrated the deepest corners (deepest fears) of personnel in the U.S. government FBI, CIA, SS, NSA, USN, USMC, DIS, NIS, etc. "investigations."

Other related considerations?....

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly





T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore



"How did it happen they ("they"?!!) hit Connally?"

- LBJ, despite the multitude of "lone nut" statements the previous 7 days, during a 29NOV63 phone conversation with his longtime friend, longtime neighbor, & soon-to-be-appointed-by-LBJ-"for-life" F.B.I. Director, J. EDGAR HOOVER

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous that he cannot believe it exists."

-J. EDGAR HOOVER, Director of the F.B.I.

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Apparently, 6% of LBJ's taped conversations are being held back by the FBI. However, it is important to remember that LBJ expected these tapes to be destroyed when he died. However, this did not happen. The first taped conversation between LBJ and Hoover took place at 10.01 am on 23rd November, 1963.

J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case - this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints ... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the President of the United States.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Now, who is A. Hidell?

J. Edgar Hoover: A. Hidell is an alias that this man has used on other occasions, and according to the information we have from the house in which he was living - his mother - he kept a rifle like this wrapped up in a blanket which he kept in the house. On the morning that this incident occurred down there - yesterday - the man who drove him to the building where they work, the building from where the shots came, said that he had a package wrapped up in paper... But the important thing at the time is that the location of the purchase of the gun by a money order apparently to the Klein Gun Company in Chicago - we were able to establish that last night.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the... Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.

Lyndon B. Johnson: It definitely established that he - the same gun killed the policeman?

J. Edgar Hoover: That is an entirely different gun. We also have that gun...

Lyndon B. Johnson: You think he might have two ?

J. Edgar Hoover: Yes, yes, he had two guns... The one that killed the President was found on the sixth floor in the building from which it had been fired. I think that the bullets were fired from the fifth floor, and the three shells that were found were found on the fifth floor. But he apparently went upstairs to have fired the gun and throw the gun away and then went out. He went down to this theater. There at the theater was where he had the gun battle with the police officer.

Lyndon B. Johnson: I wonder if you will get me a little synopsis and let me have what developments come your way during the day and try to get to me before we close up for the day. (53)

From this recording we can see that Hoover and Johnson have already been in communication about the assassination. Johnson asks Hoover: “Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?”

Hoover’s reply makes it clear that Lee Harvey Oswald (54) was not acting alone. This statement shows that Hoover is aware that there was a conspiracy to Kennedy. He is already aware that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City. It is clear that someone was trying to implicate Oswald in some pro-Castro plot. The idea of a lone gunman is completely undermined. (We will see later that Hoover believed that there were at least two gunman involved in the assassination of Kennedy). Hoover rightly goes on to explain that the evidence from Mexico City has created terrible problems for the investigation. As Hoover says: “The case, as it stands now, isn’t strong enough to be able to get a conviction.”

Johnson does not respond to this information. He must also realize that Oswald has been fitted up for the crime. However, he changes the subject and asks a question (a very silly question) about the gun that killed Tippit.

Johnson and Hoover also had a telephone conversation about the case at 1.40 pm on 29th November. This time it is a long and detailed conversation. The following appears to be relevant in explaining Johnson’s views on the assassination.

Lyndon B. Johnson: … Now Walter tells me - Walter Jenkins - that you've designated Deke (Cartha DeLoach) to work with us, like you did on the Hill, and I tell you I sure appreciate that. I didn't ask for it 'cause ... I know you know how to run your business better than anybody else... We consider him as high-class as you do. And it is a mighty gracious thing to do. And we'll be mighty happy We salute you for knowing how to pick good men.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's mighty nice of you, Mr. President, indeed. We hope to have this thing wrapped up today, but could be we probably won't get it before the first of the week. This angle in Mexico is giving us a great deal of trouble because the story there is of this man Oswald getting $6,500 from the Cuban embassy and then coming back to this country with it. We're not able to prove that fact, but the information was that he was there on the 18th of September in Mexico City and we are able to prove conclusively he was in New Orleans that day. Now then they've changed the dates. The story came in changing the dates to the 28th of September and he was in Mexico City on the 28th. Now the Mexican police have again arrested this woman Duran, who is a member of the Cuban embassy... and we're going to confront her with the original informant, who saw the money pass, so he says, and we're also going to put the lie detector test on


Lyndon B. Johnson: Can you pay any attention to those lie detector tests?

J. Edgar Hoover: I wouldn't want to be a party to sending a man to the chair on a lie detector... We've found many cases where we've used them - in a bank where there's been embezzlement - and a person will confess before the lie detector test is finished. They're more or less fearful of the fact that the lie detector test will show them guilty psychologically... Of course, it is a misnomer to call it a lie detector because what it really is is the evaluation of the chart that is made by this machine and that evaluation is made by a human being.... On the other hand, if this Oswald had lived and had taken the lie detector test and it had shown definitely that he had done these various things together with the evidence that we very definitely have, it would just have added that much more strength to it. There is no question but that he is the man now - with the fingerprints and things we have. This fellow Rubenstein down there - he has offered to take the lie detector test but his lawyer has got to be, of course, consulted first and I doubt whether the lawyer will allow it. He's one of these criminal lawyers from the West Coast and somewhat like an Edward Bennett Williams type - and almost as much of a shyster.

Lyndon B. Johnson: (laughs) Have you got any relationship between the two yet?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, at the present time we have not. There was a story down there...

Lyndon B. Johnson: Was he ever in his bar and stuff like that?

J. Edgar Hoover: There was a story that this fellow had been in this nightclub that is a striptease joint, that he had. But that has not been able to be confirmed. Now this fellow Rubenstein is a very shady character, has a bad record-street brawler tighter, and that sort of thing-and in the place in Dallas, if a fellow came in there and couldn’t pay his bill completely, Rubenstein would beat the very devil out of him and throw him out of the place... He didn't drink, didn't smoke boasted about that. He is what I would put in a category of one of these - egomaniacs. Likes to be in the limelight. He knew all the police in that white-light district... and he also let them come in, see the show, get food, liquor, and so forth. That s how, I think, he got into police headquarters. Because they accepted him as kind of a police character, hanging around police headquarters They never made any moves, as the pictures show, even when they saw him approaching this fellow and got up right to him and pressed his pistol against Oswald s stomach. Neither of the police officers on either side made any move to push him away or grab him. It wasn't until after the gun was fired that they then moved.... The Chief of Police admits that he moved him in the morning as a convenience and at the request of motion-picture people, who wanted to have daylight. He should have moved him at night... But so far as tying Rubenstein and Oswald together we haven't as yet done. So there have been a number of stories come in, we've tied Oswald into the Civil Liberties Union in New York, membership into that and, of course, this Cuban Fair Play Committee which is pro-Castro and dominated by Communism and financed, to some extent, by the Castro government.

Lyndon B. Johnson: How many shots were fired? Three?

J. Edgar Hoover: Three.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Any of them fired at me?

J. Edgar Hoover: No.

Lyndon B. Johnson: All three at the President?

J. Edgar Hoover: All three at the president and we have them. Two of the shots fired at the President were splintered but they had characteristics on them so that our ballistics expert was able to prove that they were fired by this gun. The President-he was hit by the first and third. The second shot hit the Governor the third shot is a complete bullet and that rolled out of the President's head It tore a large part of the President's head off and, in trying to massage his heart at the hospital on the way to the hospital, they apparently loosened that and it fell off onto the stretcher. And we recovered that... And we have the gun here also.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Were they aiming at the President?

J. Edgar Hoover: They were aiming directly at the President. There is no question about that. This telescopic lens, which I've looked through-it brings a person as close to you as if they were sitting right beside you. And we also have tested the fact that you could fire those three shots... within three seconds. There had been some stories going around... that there must have been more than one man because no one man could fire those shots in the time that they were fired...

Lyndon B. Johnson: How did it happen they hit Connally?

J. Edgar Hoover: Connally turned to the President when the first shot was fired and I think in that turning, it was where he got hit.

Lyndon B. Johnson: If he hadn't turned, he probably wouldn't have got hit?

J. Edgar Hoover: I think that is very likely.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Would the President have got hit with the second one?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, the President wasn't hit with the second one.

Lyndon B. Johnson: I say, if Connally hadn't been in his way?

J. Edgar Hoover: Oh, yes, yes, the President would no doubt have been hit.

Lyndon B. Johnson: He would have been hit three times.

J. Edgar Hoover: He would have been hit three times from the fifth floor of that building where we found the gun and the wrapping paper in which the gun was wrapped... and upon which we found the full fingerprints of this man Oswald. On that floor we found the three empty shells that had been fired and one shell that had not been fired... He then threw the gun aside and came down…

Lyndon B. Johnson: Well your conclusion is: (1) he's the one that did it; (2) the man he was after was the President; (3) he would have hit him three times, except the Governor turned.

J. Edgar Hoover: I think that is correct.

Lyndon B. Johnson: (4) That there is no connection between he and Ruby that you can detect now. And (5) whether he was connected with the Cuban operation with money, you're trying to...

J. Edgar Hoover: That's what we're trying to nail down now, because he was strongly pro-Castro, he was strongly anti-American, and he had been in correspondence, which we have, with the Soviet embassy here in Washington and with the American Civil Liberties Union and with this Committee for Fair Play to Cuba.

As Ron Ecker has pointed out on the JFK Forum, this conversation shows that both Johnson and Hoover believe that Connally was shot by a gunman in front of the motorcade. Both men talk about “they” and appear to accept that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

Hoover goes further than that. He believes that this is a communist conspiracy. He points out that Oswald is linked to several organizations: Cuban Fair Play Committee, American Civil Liberties Union and the Socialist Worker Party. What we do know is that Hoover had a strong hatred for these three groups. He is on record as believing they were all communist-front organizations.

Lyndon Johnson’s apparent belief in a communist conspiracy is illustrated by a phone call he made to Richard B. Russell on 29th November. Russell is reluctant to be a member of the Warren Commission. Johnson tells him:

Lyndon B. Johnson: It has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and chuck us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour.

Johnson now takes the view that the public must not be allowed to know that Kennedy has been killed as a result of a communist conspiracy. He makes the same point to Charles Halleck, House Minority Leader. This time the inevitable war “could involve our losing thirty-nine million people”.

Johnson tells Russell that: “The Secretary of State came over here this afternoon. He's deeply concerned, Dick, about the idea that they're spreading throughout the Communist world that Khrushchev killed Kennedy. Now he didn't. He didn't have a damned thing to do with it.”

These conversations appear to show that Johnson is gradually developing a strategy to deal with the Kennedy assassination. It is not clear who he believes is really behind the assassination. What he is determined to do is to avoid the public believing that it was a communist conspiracy?

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