Lansdale in DP on 11/22/63?

[Shanet Clark]

James, Ron:

Greg Wagner makes the same point that I saw in that main TRAMP photo above.

Why is that suit and tie wearing man wedged in along a fenceline with the three perpetrators during their "Perp Walk" ?

There is no way to do that, except in Dallas 1963 (like Jack Ruby did later).

Prouty found a number of similarities, long arms, tilted gait, large ring, headshape, etc. to identify the Prouty figure, whose position would seem to be one of authority, who was indulged by the Dallas officers to approach the operatives.

Certainly the large Anglo tramp (Harrelson?)seems to smirk, or have some inside knowledge concerning this close-approaching "bystander."

So, RON, you say both cops have been positively I.D.'d?

I have read the lame and defensive story told by the "earache" Dallas cop, but

is the second escorting officer only a stand-in with secret false federal papers?

Is the second escorting officer Chauncey Holt?

[Jack White]

Shanet...if you look at all of the tramp photos, I believe

you will find that there were THREE cops, not two, pictured.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

Is the second escorting officer Chauncey Holt?

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If he was, I think that Chauncey Holt would have been the first person to say so. But Chauncey claimed to be the oldest tramp. He couldn't be both. You can't have your Kate and Edith too.

Ron

[Denis Morissette]

I read in Mark Lane's Plausible Denial that he had a conversation with Fletcher Prouty in which Prouty referred to a photograph taken in DP on 11/22/63 and stated that Ed Lansdale was in the photo. Does anyone know of (or have a copy of) that particular photo? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Hi Greg,

Here is the Tramps photograph in question and a crop/blow-up of the supposed Lansdale figure.

James

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Could that be the guy thought to be Lansdale in this photo to the old tramp's left?

Edited January 18, 2005 by Denis Morissette

[Denis Morissette]

Hi Greg,

The photographic evidence is far from being a clincher but given Prouty's relationship with Lansdale, I guess we should at least take notice.

That aside, I find the Tramps photo itself a very strange one. Given that these guys were under arrest and being escorted by armed guards, why would someone be allowed to get that close to them? And why would that person want to get that close to people who were obviously under police guard?

Then we have the cops themselves. Check out the guy bringing up the rear (see below). Ill-fitting uniform, casual manner of weapon handling - he would look more at home with the Keystone cops.

Baffling.

James

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Bill Bass is the one who is the lead policeman, looking directly to the camera. The cop isolated by James in a photo is unknown.

[Greg Wagner]

I read in Mark Lane's Plausible Denial that he had a conversation with Fletcher Prouty in which Prouty referred to a photograph taken in DP on 11/22/63 and stated that Ed Lansdale was in the photo. Does anyone know of (or have a copy of) that particular photo? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Hi Greg,

Here is the Tramps photograph in question and a crop/blow-up of the supposed Lansdale figure.

James

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Could that be the guy thought to be Lansdale in this photo to the old tramp's left?

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Good question. The clothing looks like a fit, but I'm not sure about the hair. The possible Lansdale figure in James' photo looks a little shaggy in the back. Figure with the frontal shot looks like he has shorter hair. But it's tough to tell. Good observation, though.

I'm no James, but I've attempted to paste these two side-by-side in this comparison shot. Please, no cracks about my graphics skills (or lack thereof)

Greg

[Ron Ecker]

The officer bringing up the rear while Bass leads is Wise, as can be seen in two photos on page 551 in POTP. (One of these photos - altered to remove all the background - is also on page 143 in TKOAP.) Wise is also seen on page 582 in POTP, standing later with a traffic officer on the steps of the TSBD.

I see no mystery here, there are only two officers. For whatever reason they traded places with each other, Bass taking the lead (perhaps Wise paused to speak to someone in front of the TSBD), in the march of the tramps to the sheriff's office.

Ron

[Ron Ecker]

Could that be the guy thought to be Lansdale in this photo to the old tramp's left?

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The person who intrigues me in that photo is not the man you mention but the one on the far left, his face hidden by Frenchie. This man also looks like Lansdale when he wore a crewcut (as he did in the 1950s), whereas the man walking past the tramps in the first photo looks like Lansdale when he had let his hair grow.

Either one of them could plausibly be Lansdale, who could have been put in charge of the operation, and who was known to be in Texas. But which one?

How convenient, or maddening, depending on one's point of view, that the man's face is hidden behind Frenchie.

Ron

[Shanet Clark]

Look again at greg's figures-

The Tramp's "Lansdale" has a substantially longer jawline,

possible glasses, and possibly older than this other photographed figure.

Prouty knew Lansdale and said that his left shoulder dipped as he walked.

They are not at the same point in their stride to compare this.

Whether or not it is Lansdale, the whole procedure seems phony.

The lax control, the slinking suited figure (a handoff may even have occured),

the fact that the names were suppressed, the whole thing looks bad, after 40 years.

good thread.

Edited January 18, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Ron Ecker]

Prouty knew Lansdale and said that his left shoulder dipped as he walked.

It was his right shoulder that drooped.

Ron

[Steve Thomas]

Denis,

We don't even know yet who that policeman is!

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I went back and forth over those photos for a couple of months. The conclusion I came to is that this policeman is Bill Bass.

When he realized the cameras were on him, he squared himself away - and moved up to the head of the procession.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Ecker]

Here's a link to the photo of Lansdale walking in the Philippines, the difference being that the angle is from the front instead of the back.

http://www.hobrad.com/landsdalewalking.jpg

Ron

[Steve Thomas]

Ron,

The officer bringing up the rear while Bass leads is Wise, as can be seen in two photos on page 551 in POTP. (One of these photos - altered to remove all the background - is also on page 143 in TKOAP.) Wise is also seen on page 582 in POTP, standing later with a traffic officer on the steps of the TSBD.

I think it is this person whose identity is in question:

The four known arresting officers were Marvin Wise, Bill Bass, David Harkness and Roy Vaughn.

This person doesn't look like Wise or Bass. Harkness was riding a motorcycle, so he'd probably be wearing a helmet. That leaves Roy Vaughn or another officer.

The fifth officer whose presence is questionable is William Middleton. Marvin Wise told the FBI that Middleton was one of the arresting officers, but Middleton told the FBI that he was at home and did not work the 22nd.

You can read a lot of their interviews here:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

Just for the heck of it, here's a copy of the Wise photo you referred to in your post

Steve Thomas

[Ron Ecker]

I think it is this person whose identity is in question:

Steve,

We know this is Wise because of the question of what he had in his ear. The HSCA asked him about it and he told them it was cotton. Surely the HSCA would not interview and ask the wrong man about a photo showing something in his ear.

Wise does look different in this "ear" photo than in the others. His hair looks lighter, I assume an effect of sunlight. If it's some imposter, then it would seem that both the HSCA and DPD were in on the deception. For what purpose?

Back to Lansdale, here's a link to a photo to compare his profile to that of the man whose face is hidden behind Frenchy in one of the tramp photos.

http://www.hobrad.com/lansdale6.jpg

Ron

[James Richards]

I went back and forth over those photos for a couple of months. The conclusion I came to is that this policeman is Bill Bass.

When he realized the cameras were on him, he squared himself away - and moved up to the head of the procession. (Steve Thomas)

I believe you may be correct, Steve. Nice work.

Just to extend something Shanet eluded to in an earlier post, I can't help the feeling that the Tramp photographs have been staged.

Muddying the waters for investigators may be a reason but then why have Lansdale stroll through shot? I can't exactly see him volunteering to be background action.

Then again, maybe I am over analyzing looking for things that aren't there. Wouldn't be the first time.

James