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Japanese linguist John Hurt


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....Hurt stated his commanding officer in theC.I.C. was Melville Grimes, who he believes is now practicing law in Baltimore.....

Is this the same Melville Grimes, Esq. who was killed, along with his wife, by their next door neighbor in California, over a land dispute concerning the boundary between

their properties?

This is what I have.....

two different obits [not identical]

Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) - May 17, 2001

Oscar M . Grimes -- Retired lawyer, 80

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes, 80, a retired lawyer and Army counterintelligence officer during World War II, died of heart failure Sunday at Chestnut Ridge assisted-living facility in Wallingford. He formerly lived in Drexel Hill.

Mr. Grimes was a lawyer for nearly 40 years before retiring in 1984. He concentrated on insurance law and worked for the Insurance Co. of North America and Ohio Casualty Co. after beginning his career in his native Baltimore.

In 1966, Mr. Grimes opened an independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in Center City, and maintained the business until retiring to Gandys Beach, N.J.

During World War II, Mr. Grimes, whose father was police chief of Baltimore County, joined the Army's 441st Counterintelligence Corps, his family said.

His detachment was responsible for the investigation and apprehension of saboteurs and their activities in the United States, Europe and Japan. He once led a raid on a Gestapo headquarters in Germany and earned a Bronze Star, his family said.

His hobbies were furniture-making and carpentry.

Surviving are his wife of nearly 50 years, Frances Eisenhardt Grimes; son Donald M.; daughter Joan Ann Coper; a sister; and three grandchildren.

Services were held yesterday. Burial will be private.

XXXXXX

Delaware County Daily Times (Primos - Upper Darby, PA) - May 17, 2001

Deceased Name: Oscar M . 'Mel' Grimes Jr., 80; decorated WWII intelligence agent, attorney, insurance executive (obit)

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes Jr., 80, of Drexel Hill, who earned high honors as a counter intelligence agent during World War II and later became a lawyer and insurance executive, died May 13 at Chestnut Ridge Assisted Living in Wallingford.

Mr. Grimes received the Bronze Star in 1945 from Brigadier General M.B. Halsey for heading raids against Gestapo headquarters during which arrests of German agents were made, his family said. He was commanding officer of the counter intelligence corps detachment of the 97th infantry. Mr. Grimes was born in Baltimore.

He earned a law degree from the University of Baltimore in 1940. During World War II, Mr. Grimes served two years in the U.S. Army, then was captain of the 441st counter intelligence corps for three years. He worked many years for the Insurance Company of North America and later rose to vice president of claims at Ohio Casualty Co. Mr. Grimes created a Philadelphia independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in 1966. He retired to Gandy's Beach, N.J., with his wife, Francis Eisenhardt Grimes, after suffering a medical disability in 1984.

Mr. Grimes became the unofficial mayor of Gandy's Beach. He twice served as post commander of the Vandiver-Moylan American Legion Post, where he stayed active until his death.

Survivors: Son, Donald M.; daughter, Joan Ann Coper; sister, Shirley Nippard of Ellicott City, Md.; three grandchildren.

Visitation: 7-9 tonight at Vraim Funeral Home, 66 South State Road, Upper Darby.

Burial: Private.

Contributions: Vandiver-Moylan Post 355 American Legion, P.O. Box 57, Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004.

Edited by Robert Howard
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....Hurt stated his commanding officer in theC.I.C. was Melville Grimes, who he believes is now practicing law in Baltimore.....

Is this the same Melville Grimes, Esq. who was killed, along with his wife, by their next door neighbor in California, over a land dispute concerning the boundary between

their properties?

This is what I have.....

two different obits [not identical]

Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) - May 17, 2001

Oscar M . Grimes -- Retired lawyer, 80

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes, 80, a retired lawyer and Army counterintelligence officer during World War II, died of heart failure Sunday at Chestnut Ridge assisted-living facility in Wallingford. He formerly lived in Drexel Hill.

Mr. Grimes was a lawyer for nearly 40 years before retiring in 1984. He concentrated on insurance law and worked for the Insurance Co. of North America and Ohio Casualty Co. after beginning his career in his native Baltimore.

In 1966, Mr. Grimes opened an independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in Center City, and maintained the business until retiring to Gandys Beach, N.J.

During World War II, Mr. Grimes, whose father was police chief of Baltimore County, joined the Army's 441st Counterintelligence Corps, his family said.

His detachment was responsible for the investigation and apprehension of saboteurs and their activities in the United States, Europe and Japan. He once led a raid on a Gestapo headquarters in Germany and earned a Bronze Star, his family said.

His hobbies were furniture-making and carpentry.

Surviving are his wife of nearly 50 years, Frances Eisenhardt Grimes; son Donald M.; daughter Joan Ann Coper; a sister; and three grandchildren.

Services were held yesterday. Burial will be private.

XXXXXX

Delaware County Daily Times (Primos - Upper Darby, PA) - May 17, 2001

Deceased Name: Oscar M . 'Mel' Grimes Jr., 80; decorated WWII intelligence agent, attorney, insurance executive (obit)

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes Jr., 80, of Drexel Hill, who earned high honors as a counter intelligence agent during World War II and later became a lawyer and insurance executive, died May 13 at Chestnut Ridge Assisted Living in Wallingford.

Mr. Grimes received the Bronze Star in 1945 from Brigadier General M.B. Halsey for heading raids against Gestapo headquarters during which arrests of German agents were made, his family said. He was commanding officer of the counter intelligence corps detachment of the 97th infantry. Mr. Grimes was born in Baltimore.

He earned a law degree from the University of Baltimore in 1940. During World War II, Mr. Grimes served two years in the U.S. Army, then was captain of the 441st counter intelligence corps for three years. He worked many years for the Insurance Company of North America and later rose to vice president of claims at Ohio Casualty Co. Mr. Grimes created a Philadelphia independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in 1966. He retired to Gandy's Beach, N.J., with his wife, Francis Eisenhardt Grimes, after suffering a medical disability in 1984.

Mr. Grimes became the unofficial mayor of Gandy's Beach. He twice served as post commander of the Vandiver-Moylan American Legion Post, where he stayed active until his death.

Survivors: Son, Donald M.; daughter, Joan Ann Coper; sister, Shirley Nippard of Ellicott City, Md.; three grandchildren.

Visitation: 7-9 tonight at Vraim Funeral Home, 66 South State Road, Upper Darby.

Burial: Private.

Contributions: Vandiver-Moylan Post 355 American Legion, P.O. Box 57, Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004.

Thanks Robert,

I didn' think the California Grimes was the Baltimore one.

Another Philly spy.

BK

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Guest Tom Scully

Bill,

The guy you described was Melvin Noble Grimes, gunned down with his wife Elizabeth in 2007. He was no older than age 17 when John Hurt died in 1965.

http://articles.sfga...monterey-county

http://www.findagrav...r&GRid=78606496

A Marion Melville Grimes, born in Iowa in 1904, died in California in 1979:

http://vitals.rootsw...eath/search.cgi

GRIMES MARION MELVILLE 12/28/1904 M IOWA ALAMEDA(01) 03/27/1979

SS death index search came up blank :

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Yea, I figured that out myself Tom. Did the arithmatick but found his story, especially the way he was killed, and the motive, pretty fascinating.

The Grimes Robert came up with is the Man.

Can you get any goods on him?

The Ohio insurance angles are interesting, as Ruth Paine's father was in the insurance business in Ohio.

BK

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Bill,

The guy you described was Melvin Noble Grimes, gunned down with his wife Elizabeth in 2007. He was no older than age 17 when John Hurt died in 1965.

http://articles.sfga...monterey-county

http://www.findagrav...r&GRid=78606496

A Marion Melville Grimes, born in Iowa in 1904, died in California in 1979:

http://vitals.rootsw...eath/search.cgi

GRIMES MARION MELVILLE 12/28/1904 M IOWA ALAMEDA(01) 03/27/1979

SS death index search came up blank :

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Yea, I figured that out myself Tom. Did the arithmatick but found his story, especially the way he was killed, and the motive, pretty fascinating.

The Grimes Robert came up with is the Man.

Can you get any goods on him?

The Ohio insurance angles are interesting, as Ruth Paine's father was in the insurance business in Ohio.

BK

Bill, I am a little confused, I have a huge file on John B Hurt, but regarding the source of the sentence you wrote...

..Hurt stated his commanding officer in the C.I.C. was Melville Grimes, who he believes is now practicing law in Baltimore.....

I thought I had everything on Hurt that had ever been written...I don't really need to know the source, but in your opinion, it is bona fide right.....?

The was an FBI agent named Grimes who authored a WC Document, but that probably nothing....more interesting is......

Widows pg 350, by Corson, William R, & Trento, Susan... (1979)

......have a drinking problem No I never saw him drink liquor. Back in Washington Colonel Grimes and Noel Jones spent the day briefing top Army brass from the Pentagon and FBI officials including Eugene......

Anyone have more....

Edited by Robert Howard
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Bill, I am a little confused, I have a huge file on John B Hurt, but regarding the source of the sentence you wrote...

..Hurt stated his commanding officer in the C.I.C. was Melville Grimes, who he believes is now practicing law in Baltimore.....

I thought I had everything on Hurt that had ever been written...I don't really need to know the source, but in your opinion, it is bona fide right.....?

Hi Robert

The information is regarding John David Hurt. Not John B. Hurt.

Bill was replying to my post. #120.

Regards

Lee

Lee, Tom, Bill......It is embarrassing for me to admit, but I have always gotten the Hurt's confused, you can probably

go back to some old posts and see lapses, at least now I know why I didn't have anything on Melville Grimes, Esquire...it was because most of my notes and files are about the cryptologist John B Hurt, although I have perused the John David Hurt related files quite a bit as well. I still think its funny that I found the guy's obit even though

I was searching for him under my own mistaken assumption.....I don't know why I have a names problem....but is memory related and not intentional.....Even with my goofup you all should check out the "Hidden FPCC history" thread and related URL's.....

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  • 2 weeks later...

I wanted to add a couple of things about the John Hurt's North Carolina and the John B Hurt cyptographer issue.....

I have read about everything there is to know about the John Hurt, who was the former Army Counterintelligence agent

which definitely [obviously] connects to Lee Oswald sitting in a Dallas jail, before he was wasted by Jack Ruby.....

The frustration for me is that "the John Hurt who was in Army Intelligence, just doesen't fit to "Lee Oswald calling his handler" to say "what do I do now, their framing me for killing JFK".

Whether you agree or disagree with me, is the readers perogative, but to make my point 'if' THAT John Hurt had on November 22, 1963, a top-secret Pentagon clearance, the whole JFK assassination saga, takes on a more logical

hue. Even if John Hurt's "paranoia" regarding organized crime in North Carolina was some sort of FBI smear tactic, and it may well have been, the guy was not exactly the classic definition of a spook, by any means. Even though both Oswald

and the Paine's had contacts with good ole boy type's who weren't "profoundly" different.

The was Ruth's, Colonel Wilmeth, GDM's buddy Colonel Orlov et cetera...

And I want to be very clear, my interest in the cryptographer John B Hurt, came after I read here on the Forum, Jim Root's interest in him, and I found out for myself, that NSA individual's who examined Oswald's document's

regarding material such as "Questioning Eyes," and the excision of letters therof, would led to Blake, Friedman

and other NSA personages, who would be more than aware of a real "fit the bill" John Hurt, who was NEVER mentioned

in Warren Commission documents, and should have even for the factoid that BTW "there is a John B Hurt who is a legend at NSA," was just too damn much of a coincidence to have been "irrelevant."

So everyone has to make their own decision about who is more important, although for the sake of argument, they both are still very important; I believe that however Lee Oswald obtained that name, is one of the top five questions, that he was never given a chance to tell the world at a trial.

So at any rate, I made a special point to read the New York Times for August 9, 1966. Not just for Hurt's obit, which was only two sentences longer than the teaser on the New York Times preview on google.

Here is the exact wording.

New York Times August 9, 1966

John B. Hurt, Retired Aide

of National Security Unit

John B. Hurt, retired dean of the linguistics staff of the National Security Agency, died Monday morning

of a heart attack. He was 62 years old and lived at 330 Third Avenue.

Mr. Hurt worked for the Government agency when it was the Signal Intelligence Service

of the War Department from 1930 to 1963. He was the agency’s expert on Oriental languages

Mr. Hurt is survived by his widow, Mrs. Ana Dritfell Hurt, a Russian-born cellist; his mother, Mrs. Anna Hurt of Wytheville, Va.; two sisters and three brothers.

As an addendum, I recognized 330 Third Avenue as surely being in New York City....

from streeteasy.com

330 Third Ave. Manhattan N. Y. 10010

Located in Gramercy North, 330 Third Ave was constructed in 1964 and converted to a cooperative in 1984. It has 202 units and is a full service 24hr doorman building. 330 Third Ave’s facade was pointed and replaced both elevators in 2007. It also boasts a new laundry room, bolier and roof. Steps to Gramercy, Madison Square and Union Square Parks. Centrally located near transportation, tons of restaurants, nightlife,and all conveniences. Pied-a-terres, co-purchases and dogs up to 40 lbs allowed.

Regarding the address. Just because the website says the street was constructed in 1964, does not mean that on November 22, 1963 no-one lived on that street.

Can anybody supplement the address information....?

Correct N Y City, incorrect.....some other city?

Edited by Robert Howard
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This is the Mel Grimes that Hurt was talking about and is THE Mel Grimes we were looking for, not the lawyer in California.

BK

....Hurt stated his commanding officer in theC.I.C. was Melville Grimes, who he believes is now practicing law in Baltimore.....

Is this the same Melville Grimes, Esq. who was killed, along with his wife, by their next door neighbor in California, over a land dispute concerning the boundary between

their properties?

This is what I have.....

two different obits [not identical]

Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) - May 17, 2001

Oscar M . Grimes -- Retired lawyer, 80

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes, 80, a retired lawyer and Army counterintelligence officer during World War II, died of heart failure Sunday at Chestnut Ridge assisted-living facility in Wallingford. He formerly lived in Drexel Hill.

Mr. Grimes was a lawyer for nearly 40 years before retiring in 1984. He concentrated on insurance law and worked for the Insurance Co. of North America and Ohio Casualty Co. after beginning his career in his native Baltimore.

In 1966, Mr. Grimes opened an independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in Center City, and maintained the business until retiring to Gandys Beach, N.J.

During World War II, Mr. Grimes, whose father was police chief of Baltimore County, joined the Army's 441st Counterintelligence Corps, his family said.

His detachment was responsible for the investigation and apprehension of saboteurs and their activities in the United States, Europe and Japan. He once led a raid on a Gestapo headquarters in Germany and earned a Bronze Star, his family said.

His hobbies were furniture-making and carpentry.

Surviving are his wife of nearly 50 years, Frances Eisenhardt Grimes; son Donald M.; daughter Joan Ann Coper; a sister; and three grandchildren.

Services were held yesterday. Burial will be private.

XXXXXX

Delaware County Daily Times (Primos - Upper Darby, PA) - May 17, 2001

Deceased Name: Oscar M . 'Mel' Grimes Jr., 80; decorated WWII intelligence agent, attorney, insurance executive (obit)

Oscar M. "Mel" Grimes Jr., 80, of Drexel Hill, who earned high honors as a counter intelligence agent during World War II and later became a lawyer and insurance executive, died May 13 at Chestnut Ridge Assisted Living in Wallingford.

Mr. Grimes received the Bronze Star in 1945 from Brigadier General M.B. Halsey for heading raids against Gestapo headquarters during which arrests of German agents were made, his family said. He was commanding officer of the counter intelligence corps detachment of the 97th infantry. Mr. Grimes was born in Baltimore.

He earned a law degree from the University of Baltimore in 1940. During World War II, Mr. Grimes served two years in the U.S. Army, then was captain of the 441st counter intelligence corps for three years. He worked many years for the Insurance Company of North America and later rose to vice president of claims at Ohio Casualty Co. Mr. Grimes created a Philadelphia independent claim service, O.M. Grimes Co., in 1966. He retired to Gandy's Beach, N.J., with his wife, Francis Eisenhardt Grimes, after suffering a medical disability in 1984.

Mr. Grimes became the unofficial mayor of Gandy's Beach. He twice served as post commander of the Vandiver-Moylan American Legion Post, where he stayed active until his death.

Survivors: Son, Donald M.; daughter, Joan Ann Coper; sister, Shirley Nippard of Ellicott City, Md.; three grandchildren.

Visitation: 7-9 tonight at Vraim Funeral Home, 66 South State Road, Upper Darby.

Burial: Private.

Contributions: Vandiver-Moylan Post 355 American Legion, P.O. Box 57, Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004.

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Robert

You said,

"And I want to be very clear, my interest in the cryptographer John B Hurt, came after I read here on the Forum, Jim Root's interest in him, and I found out for myself, that NSA individual's who examined Oswald's document's

regarding material such as "Questioning Eyes," and the excision of letters therof, would led to Blake, Friedman

and other NSA personages, who would be more than aware of a real "fit the bill" John Hurt, who was NEVER mentioned

in Warren Commission documents, and should have even for the factoid that BTW "there is a John B Hurt who is a legend at NSA," was just too damn much of a coincidence to have been "irrelevant."

There is of course more to the coincidence than what you point out. Two associates of John B. Hurt investigated Oswald's radio etc. for cryptographic potential. Those two, Meridith Gardner and Frank Rowlet were closely associated with John B. Hurt. Also, talk about a person that would "fit the bill" of a hign ranking person at the NSA....John B. Hurt's work is still classified (after 1947) till this day.....Oswald using the name of such an important intelligence figure would, I would assume, set off alarm bells in the highest echelons of the intelligence community. During World War II we know that John B. Hurt's work was being sent directly to John J. McCloy and McCloy used the information sent by Hurt in his attempt to derail the United States' plan to drop the first atomic bomb. I discovered this John B. Hurt while researching Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker because it seems that they first crossed paths in the early 1930's But as you so clearly state, this name, John Hurt, was not mentioned in the Warren Commission Report.

Vincet Bugliosi points out that you can use as evidence of guilt a persons willingness to omit or hide information from an investigation. John J. McCloy would not, I am sure want to have the name John Hurt in the Warren Commission Report if for no other reason than that name could be directly related to him. If this were the only incident where something was omited that could be associated with McCloy we might think coincidence but when we put this with McCloy's obvious failure to include Hosty's third note as a piece of evidence in the Warren Commission Report we can begin to show a pattern of McCloy's participation in the witholding of evidence in this murder investigation. For what reason we may ask?

And answer......"was McCloy a participant in a plot to assassinate the president?" By witholding information, according to Bugliosi we might consider him a suspect!

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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Robert

You said,

"And I want to be very clear, my interest in the cryptographer John B Hurt, came after I read here on the Forum, Jim Root's interest in him, and I found out for myself, that NSA individual's who examined Oswald's document's

regarding material such as "Questioning Eyes," and the excision of letters therof, would led to Blake, Friedman

and other NSA personages, who would be more than aware of a real "fit the bill" John Hurt, who was NEVER mentioned

in Warren Commission documents, and should have even for the factoid that BTW "there is a John B Hurt who is a legend at NSA," was just too damn much of a coincidence to have been "irrelevant."

There is of course more to the coincidence than what you point out. Two associates of John B. Hurt investigated Oswald's radio etc. for cryptographic potential. Those two, Meridith Gardner and Frank Rowlet were closely associated with John B. Hurt. Also, talk about a person that would "fit the bill" of a hign ranking person at the NSA....John B. Hurt's work is still classified (after 1947) till this day.....Oswald using the name of such an important intelligence figure would, I would assume, set off alarm bells in the highest echelons of the intelligence community. During World War II we know that John B. Hurt's work was being sent directly to John J. McCloy and McCloy used the information sent by Hurt in his attempt to derail the United States' plan to drop the first atomic bomb. I discovered this John B. Hurt while researching Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker because it seems that they first crossed paths in the early 1930's But as you so clearly state, this name, John Hurt, was not mentioned in the Warren Commission Report.

Vincet Bugliosi points out that you can use as evidence of guilt a persons willingness to omit or hide information from an investigation. John J. McCloy would not, I am sure want to have the name John Hurt in the Warren Commission Report if for no other reason than that name could be directly related to him. If this were the only incident where something was omited that could be associated with McCloy we might think coincidence but when we put this with McCloy's obvious failure to include Hosty's third note as a piece of evidence in the Warren Commission Report we can begin to show a pattern of McCloy's participation in the witholding of evidence in this murder investigation. For what reason we may ask?

And answer......"was McCloy a participant in a plot to assassinate the president?" By witholding information, according to Bugliosi we might consider him a suspect!

Jim Root

Jim, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, I really think you should be more active here, but I understand

how all of that goes...I had prepared a lengthy response to your email, but it was not substantive enough, just the old

trying to find definite connections to John B Hurt via Lee Oswald, we both know the dynamic of ONI, the Signal Intelligence Service, of which John B Hurt and Harrod Miller were both members and all the NSA related matters, as one fast forwards to 1963....BTW Can you clarify or state the address from Hurt's obit was definitely New York City?

That would be a big help, even though it seems like a minor detail.....

I think instead of rehashing all of that, I might engage in a little thinking outside the box regarding "Big Fish."

Although lot of people don't realize it Dallas, Texas in 1963, while the capital of the right wing, just as much as

Memphis, Tennessee or Mobile, Alabama or geographical areas where the JBS or Minutemen were strongly associated

with, did have at least one decidely different characteristic.

It was the home of the Dallas Council On World Affairs, [there is a pertinent reason for going into this]

From late October 1963 to the day of the assassination of JFK the following persons are known to have visited

Dallas, this is by no means everyone, but at least some very noteworthy ones......

Allen Dulles

Richard Nixon

Governor George Wallace

Leon Uris

end

So, the "insiders" spinning the Kennedy Assassination into a "Commie Conspiracy" was the order of the day.

And there are the other weird anomalies, such as George H W Bush reporting a potential security threat

to JFK to the Secret Service "after" JFK had already been assassinated. Furthermore, to an unsuspecting public

when all the other government officials parrot the "looks like the Commies Did it" line and the Oswald Life Magazine cover photo, [it didn't matter to the great unwashed that no true revolutionary" would be holding a copy of The

Worker AND The Militant at the same time]

What played out was a psychological aspect of "I just don't believe or own government would have had anything to do with it," never mind the fact that just a few years later the Oswald as "ComSymp" was already falling apart.

Ed Butler admitted the Oswald WDSU interview was more or less a charade, and many years later when Warren DeBrueys was interviewed when asked about the Converation Carte Blanch interviews by the Church Committee or maybe it was the HSCA DeBruey's said "don't think he wanted to do that."

The lone eyewitness that saw "Oswald with the rifle," Howard Brennan, had vision problems and that key piece of evidence, was more or less a joke. One resident "Oswald did it - idiot" loves to belabor the point about CE 399

to death while never even mentioning that the Warren Commission could not even force Tomlinson to say what they wanted him to say, what he did say was that HE DID NOT FIND THE BULLET ON Connally or Kennedy's stretcher, but simply on "a stretcher," with the obvious connotation that it was placed there......Now 48 years later, we know that Ruby WAS at Parkland Hospital, no-one has ever proven that he didn't go in, and there is Rodolfo Godinez a BOP veteran who was working in inhalation therapy, and has never been asked what he was doing after the motorcade reached Parkland.....

At any rate, Dulles had been coming to Dallas for quite some time, his last trip was around October 29, 1963.....

What Kind Of Man Reads Playboy and

What Kind Of Big Fish Hated Kennedy

I wrote the above to make the point that once in reference to a question regarding "what is pornography,"

a Supreme Court Justice, or similar type person said, "All I know, is that I know it when I see it."

The same dynamic exists for researchers, when looking over one of many documents, you see a reference, and while the contextualization or context may be missing you know that your getting a glimpse of the reality, like when

your reading an interview with Silvia Duran or Eusebio Azcue, and they are adamant that the "Oswald" that visited them

requesting a visa, "had blond hair, and his face got really read when he got angry."

I believe the conspirators who were the magicians behind the Kennedy assassination and helped frame Oswald as a Communist in 1963, and later amended as a crazy person* a couple of decades later when the fact was well known that Oswald wasn't a Communist, but posing as a Leninist Marxist; most had either a "Philippines," "ONI" "Japan" or "OSS" background.....The enduring question is whose bidding were the magicians doing?

The most popular single individual is LBJ, he was thrown under the bus in E Howard Hunts last book before he died, there is a dispassionate student of the assassination if there ever was one...lol.

While the truth is that other figures such as Richard Nixon, 1960 running mate Henry Lodge, and later JFK Amb to Vietnam, Dean Rusk, and McGeorge Bundy seem to either [Nixon] have been sufficiently tarnished by other scandals, that he as well as the others are just not sexy enough to be part of the clique....

And when I say OSS, I am referring specifically to the China Burma Theater, ie Kounming. J. Walton Moore, E Howard Hunt

or OSS scientists such as Henry Murray

* In every society, the definition of sanity and madness are arbitrary--- are, in the largest sense, political.

-Susan Sontag

The fact of the matter remains however that while Fletcher Prouty had "issues" he was a liason between the White House and the Pentagon in the critical period..... and the area where Prouty's recollections can be verified is in the area of masters of black-ops or psy-ops.There is Colonel Lansdale see Huk Rebellion......in the same time frame CENTO and SEATO were organizations not untrod by John Foster Dulles

There is C.D. Jackson

There is Allen Dulles.....Mary Sherman, associations with Carl Jung.....esoterica....hypnosis....MKULTRA, ARTICHOKE,

destruction of MK ULTRA records, destruction and confiscation of many records through the actions or inactions of Richard Helms, Stanley Gottlieb.

See June 1963 KUBARK COUNTERINTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION

peripheral ties to persons tied to ASC...such as Noel Field, Stephren Fritchman.......ala "persons considered to have been Communists in 1963, but

There are intrigues in such areas as Project Open Skies, see Gentleman Spy, The Life of Allen Dulles,

Open Skies interfaces such areas as the crash of the U-2 spyplane, that is commonly thought to have been shotdown over Russia,

while naysayers, including myself believe it was sabotaged probably at Peshawar/Ankara....

and there are to this day the small group of individuals who believe that the Dulles/Angleton faction may have had

a divergence with President Eisenhower's Peace Summit, which, of course was ruined by the U-2 incident.

Oswald again, had "threatened" to turn over secrets to the Soviets re the U-2, but also "all these years later" it has been confirmed that

Lee did not have access to the restricted areas at Atsugi, see JTAG

If, as it is alleged over and over again in the Warren Commission documents that "all of our codes had to be changed," then it was the equivalent of the $5,000 hammer purchased by the Pentagon, and more than likely a ruse, or, a cover story, concealing that fact.

There are Clair and Henry Luce in the early 1950's era Clair was for a time U S Ambassador to Japan and later was US Ambassador to Italy. Italy was where William Harvey was stationed in a drunken fog, ostensibly at the time JFK was assassinated. As well as being the place that Angelo Bruno was returning from when he was arrested by the FBI upon returning to the United States in the aftermath of the JFK Assassination.

Clair and Henry "walked out of the White House while John F. Kennedy was present" at a social function before the assassination, after allegedly being referenced as a "warmonger," by JFK himself.

There are definitely persons who agree that Angleton definitely had access to the milieu of organized crime figures in the pertinent time period.

What was it about getting Oswald to Cuba and Russia, and just who all knows what he is alleged "about to do"

See Pavel Golachev letter to Oswald 30 September 1963

see CD 75 page 257

A letter dated 30 September 1963 and addressed “Hello, Lee!” and signed your friend PARLEL

[Robert: Pavel Golavachev?]

Letter states writer “was worker in that summer” and “I finish my television set ten months ago.”

Writer remarks Oswald and writer can see TV it when Oswald arrives in Soviet Union.

The writer also says: “Dear Lee I want to warn you. There appears to be a possibility of yours coming here,

but one never knows what might happen You must consider all attentively formerly then arrive again

in USSR. You will have to think it over.

Socialism - a social system of production for use and not for profit.

Apparently that trans-Atlantic trip will/be your last. It is for you to decide.

Is there anything I can do for you? I gave your regards/your friends at the factory “

Cheers

Edited by Robert Howard
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  • 3 weeks later...

What was it about getting Oswald to Cuba and Russia, and just who all knows what he is alleged "about to do"

See Pavel Golachev letter to Oswald 30 September 1963

see CD 75 page 257

A letter dated 30 September 1963 and addressed “Hello, Lee!” and signed your friend PARLEL

[Robert: Pavel Golavachev?]

Letter states writer “was worker in that summer” and “I finish my television set ten months ago.”

Writer remarks Oswald and writer can see TV it when Oswald arrives in Soviet Union.

The writer also says: “Dear Lee I want to warn you. There appears to be a possibility of yours coming here,

but one never knows what might happen You must consider all attentively formerly then arrive again

in USSR. You will have to think it over.

Socialism - a social system of production for use and not for profit.

Apparently that trans-Atlantic trip will/be your last. It is for you to decide.

Is there anything I can do for you? I gave your regards/your friends at the factory “

Cheers

I am still amazed nobody found the last paragraph interesting enough to at least consider the implications.

If the reader interprets the wording of the letter as I do, to paraphrase, it seems as if Pavel is saying......Apparently that possibility of yours coming here...[i.e. if you take the trip] it will be your last.....

The inferences are not limited to one possible scenario, if I am accurate. Did Pavel believe if Oswald was really going to return to the USSR, the Soviet's wouldn't let him leave?

Or does he [Pavel] have some sort of inside skinny on events to occur about seven weeks from September 30, 1963.

Either way, I would, like a lot of things, like to know what he meant by that.

But getting back to the thread, or not. While it is pertinent in my mind to the whole John B Hurt cryptographer issue, the following document is about the John David Hurt, whom Lee Farley posted about on this thread,a few posts earlier and his connection to Mel Grimes......

From Joe Backes Batch Documents

Document # 180-10093-10496 is a two page report from the Veteran's Administration. It is an outside contact report to the HSCA, dated 9/27/78.

"Today at the Veterans Administration Liaison Office in B328 Rayburn Building I reviewed the VA file of John David Hurt.

"The file contained numerous documents and medical reports from Hurt's entry into the Armed forces in 1942 to the present. It catalogued the history of Hurt's severe psoriatic arthritis which resulted in 100% disability and amputation of several fingers. It stated also that Hurt was hospitalized in 1955 and 1959 for mental disorders, including alcoholism, schizoid reactions and manic depression.

"By the time of the assassination in 1963, Hurt had lost the use of both hands and the amputations were done in 1964.

"The file contained no information pertinent to the assassination. It contained copies of Hurt's separation papers which stated that he had served in military intelligence in 1945 as an investigator: `Served in the POTT as an investigator conducting investigation of accidents, sabotage, etc. and supervised activities in which civilian and military personnel or property are involved. Collected and safeguarded evidence.'

"Nothing in the VA file contradicts anything Hurt told us about his background when we interviewed him on April 11, 1978."

They recommended contacting Aleveeta Treon and attempt to pin down the source of the allegation that Oswald tried to call Hurt on 11/23/63. It is signed by Surell Brady.

END

So, I am not sure if everyone else is aware of the above document, but I had seen it a couple of years ago, and sort of forgot about it......

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I can't believe there was any real connection, [both parties, Oswald and John D., knowing each other, or having a relationship of some kind.] I mean IF the information contained in the document is true, the guy couldn't even use his hands in 1963 and within a year they had both been amputated!

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but a covert relationship between John David Hurt and Lee Oswald

is to me, analogous to the scene in the Movie Its A Wonderful Life when Jimmy Stewart and his guardian angel Clarence, are having a drink in the bar, where Clarence says, "But, I keep telling you I'm your guardian angel."

George Bailey [stewart] says "We'll you look like the kind of angel, they'd send me."

And even though I am trying to make a serious point, I do think the above further muddles the waters regarding determining if Oswald just got the two John Hurt numbers from the switchboard operator that he spoke with, or if he

did "know" him in some loose sense of the word.

I believe very strongly in approaching any area of controversy, dispassionately, but for the life of me, I can't see any real logical conclusion to come to other than David Atlee Philipps or someone like him mentioned John B Hurt prior to the assassination and Oswald was so filled with anxiety about maintaining his cover, at least to the Dallas Police, he pulled Hurt's name out of his head in trying to think of someone who might violate the protocol of "what happens to agents, not when their cover is blown, but being posited as the assassin of JFK and not wanting to be left pi_ _ing in the wind.

Edited by Robert Howard
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What was it about getting Oswald to Cuba and Russia, and just who all knows what he is alleged "about to do"

See Pavel Golachev letter to Oswald 30 September 1963

see CD 75 page 257

A letter dated 30 September 1963 and addressed “Hello, Lee!” and signed your friend PARLEL

[Robert: Pavel Golavachev?]

Letter states writer “was worker in that summer” and “I finish my television set ten months ago.”

Writer remarks Oswald and writer can see TV it when Oswald arrives in Soviet Union.

The writer also says: “Dear Lee I want to warn you. There appears to be a possibility of yours coming here,

but one never knows what might happen You must consider all attentively formerly then arrive again

in USSR. You will have to think it over.

Socialism - a social system of production for use and not for profit.

Apparently that trans-Atlantic trip will/be your last. It is for you to decide.

Is there anything I can do for you? I gave your regards/your friends at the factory “

Cheers

I am still amazed nobody found the last paragraph interesting enough to at least consider the implications.

If the reader interprets the wording of the letter as I do, to paraphrase, it seems as if Pavel is saying......Apparently that possibility of yours coming here...[i.e. if you take the trip] it will be your last.....

The inferences are not limited to one possible scenario, if I am accurate. Did Pavel believe if Oswald was really going to return to the USSR, the Soviet's wouldn't let him leave?

Or does he [Pavel] have some sort of inside skinny on events to occur about seven weeks from September 30, 1963.

Either way, I would, like a lot of things, like to know what he meant by that.

But getting back to the thread, or not. While it is pertinent in my mind to the whole John B Hurt cryptographer issue, the following document is about the John David Hurt, whom Lee Farley posted about on this thread,a few posts earlier and his connection to Mel Grimes......

From Joe Backes Batch Documents

Document # 180-10093-10496 is a two page report from the Veteran's Administration. It is an outside contact report to the HSCA, dated 9/27/78.

"Today at the Veterans Administration Liaison Office in B328 Rayburn Building I reviewed the VA file of John David Hurt.

"The file contained numerous documents and medical reports from Hurt's entry into the Armed forces in 1942 to the present. It catalogued the history of Hurt's severe psoriatic arthritis which resulted in 100% disability and amputation of several fingers. It stated also that Hurt was hospitalized in 1955 and 1959 for mental disorders, including alcoholism, schizoid reactions and manic depression.

"By the time of the assassination in 1963, Hurt had lost the use of both hands and the amputations were done in 1964.

"The file contained no information pertinent to the assassination. It contained copies of Hurt's separation papers which stated that he had served in military intelligence in 1945 as an investigator: `Served in the POTT as an investigator conducting investigation of accidents, sabotage, etc. and supervised activities in which civilian and military personnel or property are involved. Collected and safeguarded evidence.'

"Nothing in the VA file contradicts anything Hurt told us about his background when we interviewed him on April 11, 1978."

They recommended contacting Aleveeta Treon and attempt to pin down the source of the allegation that Oswald tried to call Hurt on 11/23/63. It is signed by Surell Brady.

END

So, I am not sure if everyone else is aware of the above document, but I had seen it a couple of years ago, and sort of forgot about it......

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I can't believe there was any real connection, [both parties, Oswald and John D., knowing each other, or having a relationship of some kind.] I mean IF the information contained in the document is true, the guy couldn't even use his hands in 1963 and within a year they had both been amputated!

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but a covert relationship between John David Hurt and Lee Oswald

is to me, analogous to the scene in the Movie Its A Wonderful Life when Jimmy Stewart and his guardian angel Clarence, are having a drink in the bar, where Clarence says, "But, I keep telling you I'm your guardian angel."

George Bailey [stewart] says "We'll you look like the kind of angel, they'd send me."

And even though I am trying to make a serious point, I do think the above further muddles the waters regarding determining if Oswald just got the two John Hurt numbers from the switchboard operator that he spoke with, or if he

did "know" him in some loose sense of the word.

I believe very strongly in approaching any area of controversy, dispassionately, but for the life of me, I can't see any real logical conclusion to come to other than David Atlee Philipps or someone like him mentioned John B Hurt prior to the assassination and Oswald was so filled with anxiety about maintaining his cover, at least to the Dallas Police, he pulled Hurt's name out of his head in trying to think of someone who might violate the protocol of "what happens to agents, not when their cover is blown, but being posited as the assassin of JFK and not wanting to be left pi_ ing in the wind.

Robert,

Was Angelo Bruno involved with narcotics smuggling?

--Thomas :)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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After reading the evidence that Jim Root and Robert Howard have accumulated, I also am inclined to conclude that the purpose Raleigh call was not so much for Oswald to speak to Mr. Hurt, but to send a signal. Unfortunately for Oswald, it appears to have sent the WRONG signal, and may have effectively signed his own death warrant.

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After reading the evidence that Jim Root and Robert Howard have accumulated, I also am inclined to conclude that the purpose Raleigh call was not so much for Oswald to speak to Mr. Hurt, but to send a signal. Unfortunately for Oswald, it appears to have sent the WRONG signal, and may have effectively signed his own death warrant.

Thanks for your input Mark, I appreciate the interest, one point I had addressed before with regards to why resolving

the John Hurt issue may be the biggest challenge to researchers concerned the possibility of records that were destroyed

that may have documented such a relationship. At what level would such a area have been handled. Well considering my view that Oswald was working for ONI or the State Department, as I believe. An adjunct to such a possibility would have

related to Oswald's trip to the USSR, which, would have involved by necessity the involvement of such black-ops

veterans such as James Jesus Angleton ie CI Soviet Realities Section. Arguably the following document is the ideal

example is the following document, entitled

DESTRUCTION OF ANGLETONS FILES

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=16066

This URL may not work, as the Mary Ferrell website seems to have changed their method of viewing documents.

If that is the case, go to CIA Misc. Series Documents....

Pay special attention to this document, especially the last three pages, as there are references to various projects

and Cryptonyms, which I certainly was not familiar with.

If one believes the JFK Assassination was a conspiracy, the document provides an exhaustive record on how to remove

ersatz, smoking guns from documents that are extremely lengthy....

These are my thoughts regarding this particular document, other areas of interest as the 50th anniversary of

the JFK Assassination approaches, a refocus on certain areas such as MKULTRA.....For another example of how increedibly strange some of the original files in the WC are regarding this See WC Document 65...while some may yawn

JAMES FRED MUSTO is at the very least the type of person who is reminiscent of Eugene Dinkin, perhaps even more so.

Irrespective of how unimportant the reader deems it to be he was interviewed by an Army CIC agent named

Jewel Phegley regarding the incident at Fort Chaffee, Arkansas....

A Colonel Walter W. FADE, Commanding Officer, 31st Engineer Batallion, broke the story that Musto traveled to Washington D.C. in order to prevent this assassination.

For as long as two days, Musto states, he did not realize what he was doing. His list of the five persons and the group involved in the assassination included the Black Shirt Fascists of Italy.....

I always keep up with what is going on with the world of books, some are very good that are not well known or mentioned.

The following may or may not be in the category.

If you have read the Candy Jones book, in my mind a similar book but more in depth especially regarding some who, what, where, when-type material is:

A Nation Betrayed: The Chilling True Story of Secret Cold War Experiments Performed On Our Children and Other Innocent People - Carol Ruiz

Unholy Alliance [second Edition] - A history of Nazi Involvement with the Occult - Peter Levenda

World Turned Upside Down: U.S. Naval intelligence and the Early Cold War Struggle For Germany - Marvin B Durning

Secrets & Lies: A History Of CIA Mind Control & Germ Warfare - Gordon Thomas

Willy Brandt People and Politics - The Years 1960-1973 Translated Form The German by J. Maxwell Brownjohn

The last book is probably pretty hard to find but is the best companion to researching Cryptonyms and US Intelligence Projects I have ever seen.

It is called

Encyclopedia of the U.S. Military - Harper and Row 1990 Ballinger Publishing Company

Cheers

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