Robert Morrow Posted July 12 Posted July 12 6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: What is the evidence that JFK despised Lyndon Johnson? From everything I have read, and its a lot, Kennedy treated Johnson with respect both in the senate and as VP. The stuff that went on prior to the convention, Kennedy understood that as pure politics in a political race. Kennedy understood that as a northeast Catholic liberal, LBJ would balance out the ticket in every way, geographically, religiously and politically. So it just made the most political sense. I repeat, Sorenson's first list had Johnson at the top. (Kennedy, p. 184) Sorenson then adds, "He had strong voter appeal in areas where Kennedy had little or none.. He was a protestant with a capital P. Above all, Kennedy respected him..." Clark Clifford was managing Symington's campaign. When Kennedy approached him to feel him out, Clifford replied that Symington was not interested, he was playing for a second ballot. (Schlesinger, A Thousand Days, p. 40) You mentioned Clark Clifford; here is what was really going on at the 1960 Democratic convention. I should also add the journalists Charles Bartlett and John Siegenthaler were very good friends with the Kennedys and I don't think the Kennedys would be leaking garbage to them. JFK had already selected Stuart Symington for Vice President, then LBJ moved in for a hostile takeover of the Vice Presidency QUOTE Clifford and the six Symingtons talked far into the night. In a separate interview Jim Symington remembered that he and his brother discouraged their father. “We told him, ‘You don’t want to go and carry another guy’s water for him. Go back to the Senate where you can make a difference.’ He said, ‘Thanks, boys.’” Clifford was ultimately persuasive in convincing Symington to give his assent to second place on the Democratic ticket on the grounds that he could do more for Missouri as vice president than as senator. They all went to bed waiting word from Kennedy. At the top of the Kennedy high command, a similar belief prevailed about Symington’s imminent selection. According to Dick Donahue, who spent time with Larry O’Brien and Ken O’Donnell after a brief period of celebration, “We were satisfied it was Stuart Symington. You know, that was it, and there wasn’t any doubt about it.” The choice of Symington had actually leaked into public print hours before Kennedy won the nomination. Both Charles Bartlett and John Seigenthaler filed stories for Wednesday citing unnamed sources who confirmed Symington’s selection. (Jack and Robert Kennedy were later identified, respectively, as the unnamed sources.) Then all hell broke loose. [Thomas Oliphant & Curtis Wilkie, The Road to Camelot: Inside JFK’s Five-Year Campaign, p. 259-260] Joe Alsop on how he supported LBJ for Vice President and how many Kennedy insiders were vehemently opposed to LBJ and instead favored Sen. Stuart Symington QUOTE I had concluded that Kennedy would make a bad mistake if he did not offer the second spot on his ticket to Lyndon Johnson. By the longest possible chalk, Johnson was, after Kennedy himself, the biggest figure in the Democratic party. To pass him over would be dangerous for that reason alone but also would imply abandonment of all hope for southern votes in the electoral college. After a little research, I had concluded that substantial numbers of Kennedy’s closest advisors were advising him passionately to avoid any sort of offer to Johnson. (Senator Stuart Symington of Missouri was the alternate choice most often mentioned.) So I laid conclusions before Phil Graham. He agreed with me on every point. I, therefore, suggested that we go to Kennedy’s suite at the Biltmore to give the candidate our advice - for what it might be worth. UNQUOTE [Joseph Alsop, “I’ve Seen the Best of It,” pp. 426-427] Pierre Salinger was convinced that Lyndon Johnson blackmailed his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17218&st=75&gopid=218292& Robert Kennedy to Pierre Salinger on why in the world John Kennedy would pick the despised Lyndon Johnson to be his VP running mate in 1960: "The whole story will never be known. And it's just as well that it won't be." RFK said this to Salinger just a few days after the 1960 Democratic convention. John Simkin: "One of Kennedy’s most important advisers, Hyman Raskin, claims that Kennedy had a meeting with Johnson and Rayburn early on the morning after his nomination. According to all other sources, at this time, these two men were strongly opposed to the idea of Johnson becoming Kennedy’s running-mate. However, Kennedy told Raskin a different story. Johnson was very keen to join the ticket and “made an offer he could not refuse”. Raskin took this to mean that Kennedy was blackmailed into offering Johnson the post. (16) This view is supported by another of Kennedy’s close advisers. Pierre Salinger was opposed to the idea of Johnson being Kennedy’s running-mate. He believed that the decision would lose more votes than it would gain. Salinger believed that Kennedy would lose the support of blacks and trade unionists if Johnson became the vice-presidential candidate. Although Johnson would deliver Texas his place on the ticket would mean Kennedy would lose California. A few days after the decision had been made, Salinger asked Kennedy why? He replied, "The whole story will never be known. And it's just as well that it won't be." Salinger also got the impression that Kennedy had been blackmailed into accepting Johnson. (17)" Robert Kennedy said that Stuart Symington was the final pick for Vice President for JFK (That is … until LBJ and Sam Rayburn threatened/blackmailed JFK in the AM July 14, 1960) John Simkin: “In an interview with John Bartlow Martin for the Kennedy Oral History Project on 1st March 1964, Robert Kennedy claims that "the only people who were involved in the discussions (about who should join JFK on the ticket) were Jack and myself. Nobody else was involved in it". "We thought either (Scoop) Jackson or (Stuart) Symington". Robert goes on to say they eventually settled on Symington. Unfortunately, he does not explain why LBJ became the final choice.”
Robert Morrow Posted July 12 Posted July 12 On 7/11/2024 at 12:22 PM, James DiEugenio said: This is simply and utterly false. And I showed why in my review of Sean Fetter's meritless book. The reason being is simple: from the very start, when Sorenson made out his first list, Johnson was at the top. The question always was whether or not, he would accept it . Kennedy did not think he would. But at the convention, Alsop, and Graham, said he should ask. And Tommy Corcoran and Tip O'Neill both told him that he would take it and JFK said that would be his most likely path to victory. Since be had been hemorrhaging support in the south since his 1957 declaration for Brown v Board, which he did twice, once in Mississippi. That is how the call came to be. And Connally told LBJ he should accept. Bobby Kennedy did everything he could to stop it, but he failed. What Hersh did with this, like about everything he did in his trash compactor of a book, was simply and utterly wrong. He relied on someone who was not even in on the deliberations, ignored all the established precedents, and from there zoomed to a preordained assumption that was simply mythological. That Fetter, or anyone else, should rely on Hersh in this day and age for anything is simply unfathomable. Especially after the sorry debacles of the Marilyn Monroe trust and the Underwood messengering with Exner between Washington and Chicago. I mean please. Not on this forum. Dick Donahue. Do you know who that man was? Total inner circle JFK along with Larry O'Brien and Ken O'Donnell who recruited to work for John Kennedy during his 1952 Massachusetts Senate race against Lodge. All three of those men went to bed the night of July 13, 1960 totally CONVINCED that Stuart Symington was going to be JFK's pick for president. That is really late in the game for the VP pick. So, despite whatever that idiot Ted Sorensen said, Lyndon Johnson was most definitely NOT the top pick of the Kennedy campaign to be VP. Stuart Symingon was and I have proven it to you over and over again. What did Robert Kennedy say in his oral history about JFK's 1960 vice presidential selection. I think he said we were considering Stuart Symington and Scoop Jackson. The name of the hated Lyndon Johnson is not mentioned. I think what happened in the morning of July 14, 1960 was that JFK went to LBJ's room early and make a token offer for Johnson to be on the 1960 Demo ticket and he was COMPLETELY STUNNED when Johnson, who had told everyone publicly and privately for months that he would NEVER be a VP to the unworthy JFK, said something like "Sure I will be your VP." And LBJ did that precisely because he knew how much the Kennedys hated him and LBJ was ready to put a bullet into JFK's head at the first opportunity. Johnson knew the Kennedys would have him removed as the Senate Democratic Majority Leader, the Kennedy hate level towards LBJ was so high. After Johnson accepted Kennedy's token offer, all hell broke loose as the Kennedys spend the whole day trying to figure out a way to kick Johnson off the ticket. But LBJ and Sam Rayburn made it clear, if JFK did not put Johnson on the ticket, they were going to blow of JFK's general election by releasing covertly all the sex dirt that they and their pal J. Edgar Hoover had on Kennedy. Hoover, btw, at the peak of the Kennedy "destroy LBJ" campaign in late October, 1963 was releasing to the media that both JFK and Robert Kennedy were screwing Bobby Baker's hookers from the Quorum Club. The bottom line is, JFK crumbled to the bullying of LBJ and Rayburn and made a fatal decision to put LBJ on the 1960 Democratic ticket as VP. Jackie Kennedy even made a CARTOON of what LBJ and Sam Rayburn were doing to JFK at the convention: the cartoon shows LBJ painfully squeezing little JFK's hand while they smiled at him. This is a cartoon representation of the "strongarming" that was going on . JFK had already selected Stuart Symington for Vice President, then LBJ moved in for a hostile takeover of the Vice Presidency. Source Dick Donahue QUOTE Clifford and the six Symingtons talked far into the night. In a separate interview Jim Symington remembered that he and his brother discouraged their father. “We told him, ‘You don’t want to go and carry another guy’s water for him. Go back to the Senate where you can make a difference.’ He said, ‘Thanks, boys.’” Clifford was ultimately persuasive in convincing Symington to give his assent to second place on the Democratic ticket on the grounds that he could do more for Missouri as vice president than as senator. They all went to bed waiting word from Kennedy. At the top of the Kennedy high command, a similar belief prevailed about Symington’s imminent selection. According to Dick Donahue, who spent time with Larry O’Brien and Ken O’Donnell after a brief period of celebration, “We were satisfied it was Stuart Symington. You know, that was it, and there wasn’t any doubt about it.” The choice of Symington had actually leaked into public print hours before Kennedy won the nomination. Both Charles Bartlett and John Seigenthaler filed stories for Wednesday citing unnamed sources who confirmed Symington’s selection. (Jack and Robert Kennedy were later identified, respectively, as the unnamed sources.) Then all hell broke loose. [Thomas Oliphant & Curtis Wilkie, The Road to Camelot: Inside JFK’s Five-Year Campaign, p. 259-260] Dick Donahue is described by Wikipedia as “A member of President Kennedy’s inner circle, which was sometimes dubbed the “Irish Mafia” since 1952– and in the evening of July 13, 1960 he most definitely thought that Clark Clifford was going to be JFK’s pick for Vice President, as did both Larry O’Brien and Ken O’Donnell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Donahue QUOTE As a young attorney, Donahue was active in Democratic Party politics.[1] In 1952, Donahue met Democratic United States Senate candidate John F. Kennedy in Lowell. After being recruited by Kennedy associates Larry O'Brien and Kenneth O'Donnell,[4] Donahue soon after joined Kennedy's team, becoming key in its grassroots organizing efforts.[3][2] Donahue would become not just a political advisor to Kennedy and his family, but also a friend to the Kennedy family.[8] He later referred to O'Brien and O'Donnell as his "godparents in politics".[4] In their book, The Road to Camelot, which details Kennedy's later presidential run, Thomas Oliphant and Curtis Wilkie describe Donahue as having at this point been, "an impressive young man," who, "was beginning to attract notice in the [Democratic] party QUOTE Jackie Kennedy’s cartoons from the 1960 campaign show a cartoon of Lone Star “Texans” Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn shaking hands with JFK. The big Texan LBJ is squeezing a tiny frail JFK’s hand to the point that it hurts: https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2024/01/jackie-kennedy-knew-all-about-lyndon.html Daily Beast article on Jackie’s 1960 campaign cartoons: https://www.thedailybeast.com/jackie-kennedys-jfk-cartoons-1 (7th cartoon down is Jackie’s cartoon of how LBJ and Sam Rayburn treated JFK at the 1960 Democratic convention. Notice how LBJ is crushing the hand of a noticeable smaller and diminished and pained John Kennedy.) That is a pretty good summary of how LBJ “strongarmed” his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket. The JFK-LBJ ticket was seemingly an act of friendship but in reality an act of hostility and one of the parties was “forced” to go along with it. No wonder the JFK-LBJ relations were so rancid during JFK’s presidency. No wonder Robert Kennedy was out to utterly destroy Lyndon Johnson in the fall of 1963! Hat tip to author Sean Fetter who pointed this out in his book Under Cover of Night: The United States Air Force and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy That means Jackie knew all about the threats and blackmail tactics that LBJ and Sam Rayburn used to force JFK to Johnson on the 1960 Demo ticket as VP In Jackie’s cartoon Sam Rayburn is on the left, tall burly LBJ is in the center and he is crushing an emaciated JFK’s hand.
Robert Morrow Posted July 12 Posted July 12 On 7/10/2024 at 12:13 PM, Johnny Cairns said: Robert, I have a simple question for you and I do not require war and peace as an answer to it. If JFK was so reckless and highly blackmailable, as you speculate, then why was he ear marked for assassination? Someone so reckless, would have been kept on a tight leash. That means, no blockade during the missile crisis, full scale invasion during the Cuban disaster of 1961, no nuclear test ban treaty, no giant strides on civil rights and not going after the Mafia. Jackie Kennedy made a cartoon of LBJ, Sam Rayburn and JFK at the 1960 Democratic convention. Have you ever seen it? It is a pictorial representation of the "strongarming" that occurred at the convention. Jackie made this cartoon in real time. LBJ is crushing little Jack Kennedy's hand. Jackie Kennedy’s cartoons from the 1960 campaign show a cartoon of Lone Star “Texans” Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn shaking hands with JFK. The big Texan LBJ is squeezing a tiny frail JFK’s hand to the point that it hurts: https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2024/01/jackie-kennedy-knew-all-about-lyndon.html Daily Beast article on Jackie’s 1960 campaign cartoons: https://www.thedailybeast.com/jackie-kennedys-jfk-cartoons-1 (7th cartoon down is Jackie’s cartoon of how LBJ and Sam Rayburn treated JFK at the 1960 Democratic convention. Notice how LBJ is crushing the hand of a noticeable smaller and diminished and pained John Kennedy.) That is a pretty good summary of how LBJ “strongarmed” his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket. The JFK-LBJ ticket was seemingly an act of friendship but in reality an act of hostility and one of the parties was “forced” to go along with it. No wonder the JFK-LBJ relations were so rancid during JFK’s presidency. No wonder Robert Kennedy was out to utterly destroy Lyndon Johnson in the fall of 1963! Hat tip to author Sean Fetter who pointed this out in his book Under Cover of Night: The United States Air Force and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy That means Jackie knew all about the threats and blackmail tactics that LBJ and Sam Rayburn used to force JFK to Johnson on the 1960 Demo ticket as VP In Jackie’s cartoon Sam Rayburn is on the left, tall burly LBJ is in the center and he is crushing an emaciated JFK’s hand.
Robert Morrow Posted July 22 Posted July 22 On 7/10/2024 at 12:13 PM, Johnny Cairns said: Robert, I have a simple question for you and I do not require war and peace as an answer to it. If JFK was so reckless and highly blackmailable, as you speculate, then why was he ear marked for assassination? Someone so reckless, would have been kept on a tight leash. That means, no blockade during the missile crisis, full scale invasion during the Cuban disaster of 1961, no nuclear test ban treaty, no giant strides on civil rights and not going after the Mafia. John F. Kennedy was extremely sexually promiscuous for the length of his entire life in public service (1947 onward). There are many, many good sources on this. Here is a good one from PAGE ONE of a recently published book on JFK, Jr.: Martha Bartlett and her husband Charles Bartlett were close friends of JFK and in 1951 they introduced JFK to Jacqueline Bouvier. Martha in 1953 was a bridesmaid in the JFK-Jackie wedding and she later became a godmother to JFK, Jr. She comments on JFK’s sexual promiscuity. Martha Bartlett: QUOTE My husband really loved Jack, and he always wanted Jack and Jackie to meet. They were both of a certain age and things were starting to get thinned out as far as who was available. Poor Jack was always making advances. Half of the time they were not accepted. He thought he was a great Don Juan. And most of the women didn’t think of him as a great Don Juan. UNQUOTE [Rosemarie Terenzio and Liz McNeil, JFK, Jr.: An Intimate Oral Biography, p. 1]
Robert Morrow Posted July 29 Posted July 29 On 7/11/2024 at 1:21 PM, James DiEugenio said: What is the evidence that JFK despised Lyndon Johnson? From everything I have read, and its a lot, Kennedy treated Johnson with respect both in the senate and as VP. The stuff that went on prior to the convention, Kennedy understood that as pure politics in a political race. Kennedy understood that as a northeast Catholic liberal, LBJ would balance out the ticket in every way, geographically, religiously and politically. So it just made the most political sense. I repeat, Sorenson's first list had Johnson at the top. (Kennedy, p. 184) Sorenson then adds, "He had strong voter appeal in areas where Kennedy had little or none.. He was a protestant with a capital P. Above all, Kennedy respected him..." Clark Clifford was managing Symington's campaign. When Kennedy approached him to feel him out, Clifford replied that Symington was not interested, he was playing for a second ballot. (Schlesinger, A Thousand Days, p. 40) There is a big problem with Ted Sorensen. When he wrote the book Kennedy he had personal motivations to lie about/cover up the actual relationship between the Kennedys and LBJ and that is because Ted Sorensen wanted to get back in government again and if he aired the DIRTY LAUNDRY that would end his chances of doing that. No, JFK did not respect Lyndon Johnson. He feared LBJ, was wary of LBJ and considered LBJ a hand grenade that needed to be handled carefully in the Kennedy Administration. JFK's greatest mistake was thinking that he had LBJ (an enemy of the Kennedys, a subversive presence in government) "under control." Ted Sorenson is not a "trusted source" on the actual Kennedy-LBJ relationship which was hatred and a sub rosa war. Afterall, LBJ had used sexual blackmail to force his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket and for the next 3 years in no way whatsoever was LBJ considered a trusted team member of Camelot. The Kennedy crowd laughed about LBJ, despised LBJ and plotted his demise. Lyndon Johnson, in return, was acutely aware of all this. Jackie Kennedy told Ted Sorensen to “tone down” his references to JFK’s praise of LBJ when she helped to edit Sorensen’s book Kennedy QUOTE Years before she would assume her editorial responsibilities at Doubleday, Jackie agreed to read the manuscript of Kennedy. She proved to be a superb editor, correcting typographical errors, challenging mistaken assumptions, defending some of her husband’s personnel decisions, suggesting useful clarifications, and repeatedly setting the record straight on matters not known to me, specifically noting whom JFK privately admired and whom he did not, all in handwritten notes on several sheets of lined yellow paper. In addition to asking me to tone down my references to JFK’s praise of LBJ, she made a number of specific suggestions: UNQUOTE [Ted Sorensen, Counselor, p. 404] Ted Sorenson Admits in his book Kennedy he limited his criticisms of Lyndon Johnson because he felt (hoped!) he might be returning to government soon QUOTE Later, the author William Manchester incorrectly claimed that the Kennedys had pressured me with demands for changes, perhaps reflecting his own unfortunate experience with Robert and Jacqueline Kennedy. In fact, I welcomed most of their suggestions in the interests of accuracy. No other member of the family saw the final manuscript, much less attempted to censor it. Still, at the time I wrote the book, I thought I might soon return to government, and felt it prudent to limit my criticisms of LBJ, the Democratic Party, and the Kennedy family to avoid burning any bridges. UNQUOTE [Ted Sorensen, Counselor, p. 407]
Robert Morrow Posted July 29 Posted July 29 (edited) On 7/11/2024 at 12:22 PM, James DiEugenio said: This is simply and utterly false. And I showed why in my review of Sean Fetter's meritless book. The reason being is simple: from the very start, when Sorenson made out his first list, Johnson was at the top. The question always was whether or not, he would accept it . Kennedy did not think he would. But at the convention, Alsop, and Graham, said he should ask. And Tommy Corcoran and Tip O'Neill both told him that he would take it and JFK said that would be his most likely path to victory. Since be had been hemorrhaging support in the south since his 1957 declaration for Brown v Board, which he did twice, once in Mississippi. That is how the call came to be. And Connally told LBJ he should accept. Bobby Kennedy did everything he could to stop it, but he failed. What Hersh did with this, like about everything he did in his trash compactor of a book, was simply and utterly wrong. He relied on someone who was not even in on the deliberations, ignored all the established precedents, and from there zoomed to a preordained assumption that was simply mythological. That Fetter, or anyone else, should rely on Hersh in this day and age for anything is simply unfathomable. Especially after the sorry debacles of the Marilyn Monroe trust and the Underwood messengering with Exner between Washington and Chicago. I mean please. Not on this forum. There are so many accounts of the 1960 Democratic convention and the one thing that keeps coming up from both the Kennedy and Johnson camps was their TOTAL SURPRISE, SHOCK when Lyndon Johnson was weirdly announced as JFK's pick for vice president on the afternoon of July 14th, 1960. JFK and RFK had spent the day trying to kick LBJ off the ticket after Johnson had BLOWN THEIR MINDS by accepting JFK's token offer to be Vice President. The reason both Kennedy and Johnson camps were stunned by this was because of the absolutely acid relationship between the Kennedys and LBJ, the nastiness of the convention fight, the fact that the Kennedys had made it known to many insiders that Sen. Stuart Symington was their favored pick and the fact that Lyndon Johnson had PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY told anyone who would ask him that he would NEVER be a vice president to John Kennedy. Again, the reason LBJ suddenly wanted the VP and he wanted it badly was precisely because the relations between the Kennedys and LBJ were so rancid. Johnson knew, with 100% certainly, that the Kennedys would immediately move to have Johnson removed as the Senate Democratic Majority Leader if JFK were to be elected president. And if Nixon were elected, LBJ knew life would not be like it was under Ike who gave Johnson a lot of power to play with. Johnson also knew if he were the VP on Kennedy's ticket and it LOST then he could always blame that loss on JFK and perhaps be the next man in line for the Democrats. At the very end it was Sam Rayburn and John Connally telling LBJ to go for the vice presidency because, in Connally's words, "the Kennedys play for keeps" and after that rancid convention fight they would blackball LBJ forever in the Senate. So once JFK offered LBJ that token offer of the vice presidency, LBJ took a bite of that with the desperate tenacious grip of a bulldog and he was never going to let go of that VP slot no matter what. He could always murder JFK if they got elected and IMHO that is exactly what he did. At 1960 Democratic convention, Robert Kennedy told journalist Robert Novak that the Kennedys were considering 3 people for Vice President: Senator Stuart Symington (MO), Senator Scoop Jackson (WA) and Gov. Orville Freeman (MN) QUOTE We had asked JFK campaign manager Bobby Kennedy for help. Strictly for guidance and not to be published, would he give us the names of all possibilities as his brother’s running mate? We would then write a profile on each, and at the last minute slip in the story on the one selected. He gave us three names: Senator W. Stuart Symington of Missouri, Senator Henry M. (Scoop) Jackson of Washington, and Governor Orville Freeman of Minnesota. We thought it odd for the little-known Freeman to be in that company. I don’t believe Bobby intentionally misled us. I came to believe Freeman already had been chosen, and Bobby put up the two senators as decoy. Bobby only knew about the selection of LBJ only a few hours before we did. UNQUOTE [Robert Novak, The Prince of Darkness: 50 Years of Reporting in Washington, p. 68] Edited July 29 by Robert Morrow
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